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Rank: A-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#51 Posted : Monday, October 8, 2018 12:45:23 PM(UTC)
I think I can prove the unfairness.

The Baja Bug Challenge!

Build your best Baja Bug to D500 and take on Unbeatable drivatars on the Titan exhibition race for Offroad Buggies..

The imbalance becomes clear as soon as you start the climb up the ridge. If you had any lead, you will lose it to cars flying past as your car loses momentum up the hill.

Best I've managed is 7th place with the leading cars at least 10 seconds ahead!

Can anyone win?

Edited by user Monday, October 8, 2018 1:11:22 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#52 Posted : Monday, October 8, 2018 1:19:03 PM(UTC)
What infuriates me more than anything is when I will out-drive the AI, be in the lead, nearing the finish line and at the very last moment they get a speed boost out of thin air and cross the finish line first! It's so blatantly a cheat because not only does it look like a cheat, it feels like one, too... Especially if it's a lower spec vehicle than the one you are driving. SMH...
Rank: Racing Permit
#53 Posted : Monday, October 8, 2018 2:15:37 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: HLR Moss Go to Quoted Post
I think I can prove the unfairness.

The Baja Bug Challenge!

Build your best Baja Bug to D500 and take on Unbeatable drivatars on the Titan exhibition race for Offroad Buggies..

The imbalance becomes clear as soon as you start the climb up the ridge. If you had any lead, you will lose it to cars flying past as your car loses momentum up the hill.

Best I've managed is 7th place with the leading cars at least 10 seconds ahead!

Can anyone win?


First race d500 baja bug unbeatable ai finnish 8th
second race d500 baja bug expert drivatars (my normal difficult setting) finnish 3rd 40s! afer winner.
third race s1 extreme offroad unbeatable ai i won by 2s.
4th race s1 extreme offroad expert ai i won by 2s again (actually only reason why i even won was because ai driver mess up corner 30s before goal line)

And earlier today i race two 3lap races in goliath with only difference being ai difficult, in first time highly skifull and second time unbeatable and both of those races i won with 6s marginal. i drive with vulcan he s998 and best lap time was 8,35 and one ai driver drive under 8,30 with s1 class hsv drifter!
Rank: Racing Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#54 Posted : Monday, October 8, 2018 2:17:07 PM(UTC)
I hate to be that guy, but this is a get good situation. Yes the AI runs essentially full assists, which means they will always have best grip, stable cornering, etc...
But you have advantages over them, abs brakes worse than non-abs, stm corners slower, even in rain. Where you guy are running into issues is likely due to the AI running nearly perfect lines, and you in your haste trying to get ahead will run a bad line, leaving you slower in the corner and slower down the next straight. Which this game has huge straights, so it seems "cheap".
Also take into consideration you will have a higher PP car. If you really want to see what the AI is driving, buy the car and auto upgrade it to the Class you are at.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
 6 users liked this post.
#55 Posted : Monday, October 8, 2018 2:27:58 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: McFuu Go to Quoted Post
I hate to be that guy, but this is a get good situation. Yes the AI runs essentially full assists, which means they will always have best grip, stable cornering, etc...
But you have advantages over them, abs brakes worse than non-abs, stm corners slower, even in rain. Where you guy are running into issues is likely due to the AI running nearly perfect lines, and you in your haste trying to get ahead will run a bad line, leaving you slower in the corner and slower down the next straight. Which this game has huge straights, so it seems "cheap".
Also take into consideration you will have a higher PP car. If you really want to see what the AI is driving, buy the car and auto upgrade it to the Class you are at.


I'm sorry but you are wrong.. The AI drivatars using Baja Bugs at D496 are unbeatable on Pro or Unbeatable difficulty on the Titan track.

I can win on Expert but when set to Pro or Unbeatable the drivatars simply drive away and Lewis Hamilton wouldn't catch them LOL.

If you don't believe me give it a try. The AI cars appear to have a significant power advantage and this track shows it up better than most.

Edit: I'm talking about using a Baja Bug built as good as you can to D500.

Edited by user Monday, October 8, 2018 2:37:23 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#56 Posted : Monday, October 8, 2018 2:36:52 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: HLR Moss Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: McFuu Go to Quoted Post
I hate to be that guy, but this is a get good situation. Yes the AI runs essentially full assists, which means they will always have best grip, stable cornering, etc...
But you have advantages over them, abs brakes worse than non-abs, stm corners slower, even in rain. Where you guy are running into issues is likely due to the AI running nearly perfect lines, and you in your haste trying to get ahead will run a bad line, leaving you slower in the corner and slower down the next straight. Which this game has huge straights, so it seems "cheap".
Also take into consideration you will have a higher PP car. If you really want to see what the AI is driving, buy the car and auto upgrade it to the Class you are at.


I'm sorry but you are wrong.. The AI drivatars using Baja Bugs at D496 are unbeatable on Pro or Unbeatable difficulty on the Titan track.

I can win on Expert but when set to Pro or Unbeatable the drivatars simply drive away and Lewis Hamilton wouldn't catch them LOL.

If you don't believe me give it a try.





We all know that the AI gets power boost, I was one of the people who found it in FM7 when I run a Top 10 world time and mid race I had a drivatar click off a lap 2 seconds faster than world number 1.

In that very small situation of this spec race, you will encounter this issue. But it's not "broken" the system is designed this way and outside of this situation they are beatable, as I race on only Unbeatable settings.

But for [Mod Edit - Abbreviated profanity, profanity and profanity that is disguised but still alludes to the words are not permitted - D] and giggles I will give it a go. (Baja bug race).

Edited by user Tuesday, October 9, 2018 1:25:56 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#57 Posted : Monday, October 8, 2018 2:39:27 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: McFuu Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HLR Moss Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: McFuu Go to Quoted Post
I hate to be that guy, but this is a get good situation. Yes the AI runs essentially full assists, which means they will always have best grip, stable cornering, etc...
But you have advantages over them, abs brakes worse than non-abs, stm corners slower, even in rain. Where you guy are running into issues is likely due to the AI running nearly perfect lines, and you in your haste trying to get ahead will run a bad line, leaving you slower in the corner and slower down the next straight. Which this game has huge straights, so it seems "cheap".
Also take into consideration you will have a higher PP car. If you really want to see what the AI is driving, buy the car and auto upgrade it to the Class you are at.


I'm sorry but you are wrong.. The AI drivatars using Baja Bugs at D496 are unbeatable on Pro or Unbeatable difficulty on the Titan track.

I can win on Expert but when set to Pro or Unbeatable the drivatars simply drive away and Lewis Hamilton wouldn't catch them LOL.

If you don't believe me give it a try.





We all know that the AI gets power boost, I was one of the people who found it in FM7 when I run a Top 10 world time and mid race I had a drivatar click off a lap 2 seconds faster than world number 1.

In that very small situation of this spec race, you will encounter this issue. But it's not "broken" the system is designed this way and outside of this situation they are beatable, as I race on only Unbeatable settings.

But for **** and giggles I will give it a go. (Baja bug race).


I run on unbeatable too, and have never encountered such a discrepancy before. On this track, with this car, the game is broken!

Edited by user Monday, October 8, 2018 3:13:38 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Legend
#58 Posted : Monday, October 8, 2018 3:26:06 PM(UTC)
Where is this Titan event on the map?

I may still need to progress a little in cross country to unlock it maybe. When I find it I will run it.

I did run another circuit race using my D500 Baja Bug. Pretty much took me to the final turn on lap 3 of 3 to get into the lead. But on that event I did not see any weirdness.

But Moss the issue you share sounds the opposite of one of the snow tracks in FH3 where none of the AI could finish the race when I chose my D class Corolla. The would stall going up a hill.


I blame the ants.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#59 Posted : Monday, October 8, 2018 3:50:24 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SatNiteEduardo Go to Quoted Post
Where is this Titan event on the map?

I may still need to progress a little in cross country to unlock it maybe. When I find it I will run it.

I did run another circuit race using my D500 Baja Bug. Pretty much took me to the final turn on lap 3 of 3 to get into the lead. But on that event I did not see any weirdness.

But Moss the issue you share sounds the opposite of one of the snow tracks in FH3 where none of the AI could finish the race when I chose my D class Corolla. The would stall going up a hill.




It's the final event in the X-Country series. Last track to unlock. I tried with various builds, both RWD and AWD. I ended up running AWD with 104 hp using a Turbo conversion and upgraded oil cooling. There may be slightly better builds but I haven't found one yet. I managed to run around 6:58 but the AI on unbeatable have run low 6:30s and on Pro they run mid 6:40s. I can win on Expert though LOL. The car struggles to get to the top of the ridge, almost ending up in 1st gear to maintain momentum.

Running Unbeatable difficulty it doesn't help that the leading group of cars are so far ahead that the obstacles have respawned by the time I reach them, slowing me down further.

Edit: The Titan track appears on the east coast, next to the lighthouse above Bamburgh Castle.

On my last run on Pro difficulty I finished 5th under 7 minutes, but the leading car ran a 6:31 LOL.

Edited by user Monday, October 8, 2018 4:16:58 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
 2 users liked this post.
#60 Posted : Monday, October 8, 2018 5:25:28 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: CaktuzJak Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Luxautica VIP Go to Quoted Post






I have the PC (and XBOX) versions of FH4, and have done tests at 30fps and 60fps to see if there is any difference in AI responsiveness on the PC version.

As you may have guessed, at 30fps, the AI behaves a little better due to things not being rendered as fast, but it's still broken with Rogue Drivatars, clipping through objects, driving according to their own physics (% boosts, etc). The real difference at 30fps is the difficulty scaling in Solo races in my tests. "New Driver" behaves like new drivers, for the most part and I can beat them easily as expected. It only starts to go off the rails around "Highly Skilled" where we start to see the problems we've been discussing. Anything above that, and it doesn't matter if it's 30fps, or 60fps. This just confirms players don't need to tune/upgrade in Forza Horizon unless they want a (unfair) challenge at higher levels.

I also noticed different levels of motion blur also seem to reign in the Drivatars a little... Which wouldn't be out of the question if their navigation is tied to frame rate and rendering calculations that are increased by adding motion blur of varying levels.


Very interesting stuff indeed. I also play on the PC, I have an Xbox too but don't really play on it since the Forza series moved over to the PC market. Anyway I usually play at 60fps so I'll have to check that out myself. I don't think I'd switch for less OP AI though. I do tune though, I mean I pretty much have too since the base tunes in the game are straight up garbage. Anyway very interesting stuff!

Originally Posted by: HLR Moss Go to Quoted Post
I think I can prove the unfairness.

The Baja Bug Challenge!

Build your best Baja Bug to D500 and take on Unbeatable drivatars on the Titan exhibition race for Offroad Buggies..

The imbalance becomes clear as soon as you start the climb up the ridge. If you had any lead, you will lose it to cars flying past as your car loses momentum up the hill.

Best I've managed is 7th place with the leading cars at least 10 seconds ahead!

Can anyone win?


So I tried this challenge. I didn't put a tune on it, invested a majority into power, I think it was 107hp or something D500. From the start they take off like usual, I get to the golf course and I'm in 7th, got to the jump next to the nice house and one of the AI clipped into the wall. Took 6th, at this point 1st-4th have taken off so far ahead I would never catch them in a million years. Eventually come up to the finish point in the rail yard all while fighting for 6th figuring I was going to finish in that spot sure enough I noticed on my map they have all stopped. I thought well that's weird, I get up to the finish line and find out that they all took the jump right before the end and crashed into the wall, all except one. So I managed second in a un-tuned D500 Baja Bug. Close but no cigar.

I tried the same event with another car the,(my challenge lol sort of) BMW Isetta, completely stock just for fun. Start of the race they all tear off, on the first jump into water they all get bogged down. The top five end up getting away and pick up speed like crazy and here is where it gets interesting.


They all end up not clearing this jump including me. All except for one.

The AI in first clipped though the scenery aka the jump and made it through. Truly that is unfair right?
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#61 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2018 1:00:26 AM(UTC)
Seen this as well. Had an AI S1 Ford Focus going just as fast and cornering with my X Class Senna. Same race had a couple AI cars flying off the wet corner a great distance, only to get back to the road just as fast or faster if they were on asphalt.

They also seem to retain dry traction when its wet and you do not.


"Integrity, is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching." -Anonymous and/or Paraphrase -Charles Marshall.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#62 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2018 4:38:46 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: McFuu Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HLR Moss Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: McFuu Go to Quoted Post
I hate to be that guy, but this is a get good situation. Yes the AI runs essentially full assists, which means they will always have best grip, stable cornering, etc...
But you have advantages over them, abs brakes worse than non-abs, stm corners slower, even in rain. Where you guy are running into issues is likely due to the AI running nearly perfect lines, and you in your haste trying to get ahead will run a bad line, leaving you slower in the corner and slower down the next straight. Which this game has huge straights, so it seems "cheap".
Also take into consideration you will have a higher PP car. If you really want to see what the AI is driving, buy the car and auto upgrade it to the Class you are at.


I'm sorry but you are wrong.. The AI drivatars using Baja Bugs at D496 are unbeatable on Pro or Unbeatable difficulty on the Titan track.

I can win on Expert but when set to Pro or Unbeatable the drivatars simply drive away and Lewis Hamilton wouldn't catch them LOL.

If you don't believe me give it a try.





We all know that the AI gets power boost, I was one of the people who found it in FM7 when I run a Top 10 world time and mid race I had a drivatar click off a lap 2 seconds faster than world number 1.

In that very small situation of this spec race, you will encounter this issue. But it's not "broken" the system is designed this way and outside of this situation they are beatable, as I race on only Unbeatable settings.

But for [Mod Edit - Abbreviated profanity, profanity and profanity that is disguised but still alludes to the words are not permitted - D] and giggles I will give it a go. (Baja bug race).


How did it go? How close did you get to the Pro level drivatars. I’m sure you could beat my best time of around 6:58 but I still think 6:31 is impossible with a D500 Baja Bug. That time was achieved in one of my races by a Baja Bug with PI at D496.

Edited by user Tuesday, October 9, 2018 4:40:01 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Legend
#63 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2018 5:22:48 AM(UTC)
I have tried 2 D500 builds and a C600. Have a B lined up next.

Closest I got was 10 seconds in c class.

I am trying to get an original engine build on this thing that can compete. Maybe fully maxed at whatever pi that gets to.
I blame the ants.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
 3 users liked this post.
#64 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2018 6:11:54 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SatNiteEduardo Go to Quoted Post
I have tried 2 D500 builds and a C600. Have a B lined up next.

Closest I got was 10 seconds in c class.

I am trying to get an original engine build on this thing that can compete. Maybe fully maxed at whatever pi that gets to.


Thanks for trying it Ed. Was that against Pro or Unbeatable drivatars? I found that Pro can be faster in D class. As I said earlier, I’ve seen them run a 6:31 LOL.

Edit: Just tried C class myself on unbeatable with 151 hp 200 ftlbs, 2593 lbs.
First attempt got me 8th place in 6:25.753 with the winner clocking 6:16.844. I was never in the race 👎

2nd attempt on Pro difficulty got me a 2nd place in 6:24.219 but the winner clocked 6:12.007. I never saw him 👎

Tried B class with a full race engine less cams, adding a little tyre F & R to make up the PI to B698. 1st run on Pro difficulty saw me in 5th in a time of 6:03.632. An Alumi Craft won in 5:50.296 with the 2nd place going to a Bug in 5:51.387. Never in the race again 👎

Can safely say that this car needs rebalancing or something needs to be done with the AI model.

Unless someone can prove me wrong LOL.

Edited by user Tuesday, October 9, 2018 7:20:14 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#65 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2018 9:52:20 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: CaktuzJak Go to Quoted Post
What infuriates me more than anything is when I will out-drive the AI, be in the lead, nearing the finish line and at the very last moment they get a speed boost out of thin air and cross the finish line first! It's so blatantly a cheat because not only does it look like a cheat, it feels like one, too... Especially if it's a lower spec vehicle than the one you are driving. SMH...


Literally never had this happen to me, played on unbeatable, first place on all races, don't know what other people are getting.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
 2 users liked this post.
#66 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2018 10:05:11 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CaktuzJak Go to Quoted Post
What infuriates me more than anything is when I will out-drive the AI, be in the lead, nearing the finish line and at the very last moment they get a speed boost out of thin air and cross the finish line first! It's so blatantly a cheat because not only does it look like a cheat, it feels like one, too... Especially if it's a lower spec vehicle than the one you are driving. SMH...


Literally never had this happen to me, played on unbeatable, first place on all races, don't know what other people are getting.


LOL, you clearly have never driven the Baja Bug on Titan. You won’t even get close on Pro difficulty.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#67 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2018 10:21:52 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: HLR Moss Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CaktuzJak Go to Quoted Post
What infuriates me more than anything is when I will out-drive the AI, be in the lead, nearing the finish line and at the very last moment they get a speed boost out of thin air and cross the finish line first! It's so blatantly a cheat because not only does it look like a cheat, it feels like one, too... Especially if it's a lower spec vehicle than the one you are driving. SMH...


Literally never had this happen to me, played on unbeatable, first place on all races, don't know what other people are getting.


LOL, you clearly have never driven the Baja Bug on Titan. You won’t even get close on Pro difficulty.


Then don't drive the Baja Bug on Titan. You know you're not gonna win so why keep doing it?
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#68 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2018 10:48:29 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: HLR Moss Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CaktuzJak Go to Quoted Post
What infuriates me more than anything is when I will out-drive the AI, be in the lead, nearing the finish line and at the very last moment they get a speed boost out of thin air and cross the finish line first! It's so blatantly a cheat because not only does it look like a cheat, it feels like one, too... Especially if it's a lower spec vehicle than the one you are driving. SMH...


Literally never had this happen to me, played on unbeatable, first place on all races, don't know what other people are getting.


LOL, you clearly have never driven the Baja Bug on Titan. You won’t even get close on Pro difficulty.


Well, that's not doable because the car has too much handling for the class. You cannot get enough power. Also, about the whole "obstacles respawning before you get to them" thing. The AI never actually hit them if you're too far behind, there's a certain range before the AI become unstoppable by anything, the goal is to try and stay as close as you can as the race starts, but with this bug, that is not a possibility.

Edited by user Tuesday, October 9, 2018 11:47:01 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's License
#69 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2018 11:24:46 AM(UTC)
What I have always found about the difficulty, it seems that flat-out speed is where the AI improves on. Expert, Pro, Unbeatable, seem like the AI is generally the same through corners (mainly where I gain all my ground) but when you hit the straights is where I see them suddenly take off if I crank up the difficulty. I will definitely say that some cars just don't cut it no matter what you do to them.

Edited by user Tuesday, October 9, 2018 11:27:44 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#70 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2018 1:01:00 PM(UTC)
Not sure if it'll let me share this.. But coming over the dam and you can see the cars behind me charge straight through without compromise.. Then they just peel off like an old scab after that. It's insane. I've got more footage that I can render if needed..

https://twitter.com/utbd...atus/1049765491164831751
Rank: Racing Legend
#71 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2018 2:41:08 PM(UTC)
I am enjoying the challenge. I need a reason to keep racing.

At the end I may have the best baja bug build.

I have blue printed to just that car and ran b class. Still around 10 seconds off.

Not many build options to try but I have an idea. I am heading to work now so cant try it yet - rwd, stock transmission and camshaft only. Or some other variant where cams are the mainstay. I think this will be most likely to work at low pi.
I blame the ants.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#72 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2018 4:09:42 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SatNiteEduardo Go to Quoted Post
I am enjoying the challenge. I need a reason to keep racing.

At the end I may have the best baja bug build.

I have blue printed to just that car and ran b class. Still around 10 seconds off.

Not many build options to try but I have an idea. I am heading to work now so cant try it yet - rwd, stock transmission and camshaft only. Or some other variant where cams are the mainstay. I think this will be most likely to work at low pi.


It can probably be done in B class pretty easily. Just not D, there's just not enough power.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#73 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2018 4:11:38 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Clutch63 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HLR Moss Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CaktuzJak Go to Quoted Post
What infuriates me more than anything is when I will out-drive the AI, be in the lead, nearing the finish line and at the very last moment they get a speed boost out of thin air and cross the finish line first! It's so blatantly a cheat because not only does it look like a cheat, it feels like one, too... Especially if it's a lower spec vehicle than the one you are driving. SMH...


Literally never had this happen to me, played on unbeatable, first place on all races, don't know what other people are getting.


LOL, you clearly have never driven the Baja Bug on Titan. You won’t even get close on Pro difficulty.


Then don't drive the Baja Bug on Titan. You know you're not gonna win so why keep doing it?


For the hell of it and to prove a point that not all cars can be driven to win on higher drivatar difficulty levels, even against a field full of the same car at a lower PI level. This thread set out to show up the game’s inadequacies and imbalances in the AI after all.


Rank: D-Class Racing License
#74 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2018 4:13:49 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: HLR Moss Go to Quoted Post


For the hell of it and to prove a point that not all cars can be driven to win on higher drivatar difficulty levels, even against a field full of the same car at a lower PI level. This thread set out to show up the game’s inadequacies and imbalances in the AI after all.




If you deliberately drive the slowest vehicle you can in the class, you're just asking to lose.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
 3 users liked this post.
#75 Posted : Tuesday, October 9, 2018 5:45:11 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HLR Moss Go to Quoted Post


For the hell of it and to prove a point that not all cars can be driven to win on higher drivatar difficulty levels, even against a field full of the same car at a lower PI level. This thread set out to show up the game’s inadequacies and imbalances in the AI after all.




If you deliberately drive the slowest vehicle you can in the class, you're just asking to lose.


But I’m racing against the same car driven by drivatars LOL. That is the whole point!
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