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Rank: C-Class Racing License
#26 Posted : Saturday, October 6, 2018 7:57:08 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Chojinzo Go to Quoted Post
Also rubber banding is evident in the extreme, when a transit van can keep up (literally touching bumpers) with a maxed Aventador FE on the Goliath circuit. šŸ˜‚


That's not rubberbanding, you can get that transit van to go that fast.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#27 Posted : Saturday, October 6, 2018 8:18:42 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Chojinzo Go to Quoted Post
Also rubber banding is evident in the extreme, when a transit van can keep up (literally touching bumpers) with a maxed Aventador FE on the Goliath circuit. šŸ˜‚


That's not rubberbanding, you can get that transit van to go that fast.


A transit van can hang with a 270mph Aventador? Not just on the straights but in the corners as well?

Iā€™m going to have to try this.
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http://mixer.com/chojinzo
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#28 Posted : Saturday, October 6, 2018 9:49:29 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
I don't think you guys get it. It's not that the AI isn't slowed down by water, it's that it isn't slowed down enough.


Sounds like your Vegeta is showing.

Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Chojinzo Go to Quoted Post
Also rubber banding is evident in the extreme, when a transit van can keep up (literally touching bumpers) with a maxed Aventador FE on the Goliath circuit. šŸ˜‚


That's not rubberbanding, you can get that transit van to go that fast.


I think AR12 may have posted a Sleeper Car video about it. Leastways it looked that way from the thumbnail.
Welcome to the Hyperbolic Whine Chamber. If you cry hard enough you might get your pouter level over 9000.
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#29 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 1:43:32 AM(UTC)
They need to sack whoever programmed the AI, even through rain they have the grip of an F1 car in the dry...
Rank: Driver's Permit
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#30 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 1:59:22 AM(UTC)
I observed the AI a bit and noticed something weired.
That in a lot of recent Races there is one AI Driver who is unnatural faster than every other AI Driver (including me)
He is always several Seconds infront of everyone else, until u can catch him (With a lot of luck only), then he slows down on normal speed.
Its almost feeling like he is in a higher Class Rating
Rank: Racing Permit
#31 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 2:41:35 AM(UTC)
Iā€™m having the same problem where you get to second place and then the AI in first suddenly has more horsepower than you...
Rank: Driver's Permit
#32 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 5:07:52 AM(UTC)
I'm so glad I'm not the only one. Because of this I can trace on anything higher than average because there's always one drivatar it feels like he's racing on Expert. I'll consistently get the 2nd or 3rd and they'll always be one guy that smiles ahead and even if I raced perfect I would never have a chance to catch. Very frustrating
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#33 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 5:10:29 AM(UTC)
Welcome to the world of rubberbanding
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#34 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 5:19:46 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DodgeVipeRTC Go to Quoted Post
I observed the AI a bit and noticed something weired.
That in a lot of recent Races there is one AI Driver who is unnatural faster than every other AI Driver (including me)
He is always several Seconds infront of everyone else, until u can catch him (With a lot of luck only), then he slows down on normal speed.
Its almost feeling like he is in a higher Class Rating


Just the way it is designed. For the first 50 % of a race you are supposed to fight for third place, for the next 40 % you fight for first place, for the last 10 % you fight off attempts to catch you. Drivatars only still exist in name, they don't actually use the driving skills of the people they represent. Everything in Horizon is rigged. In a championship one driver will always be top notch in two races and bad in one. In a race the front starters will always be the fastest cars, there will be little to none overtaking behind you. The outcome of a wheelspin is decided before you even click to spin the wheel. It's all just a show.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#35 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 6:06:07 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DisturbedUKR90 Go to Quoted Post
Welcome to the world of rubberbanding


Nah stop making that excuse, there is no rubberbanding.
Rank: Driver's License
#36 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 6:33:11 AM(UTC)
I noticed this too. It's always the Drivatar in the #1 starting position, and usually is a pretty crappy car in your "class" always shoots up ahead and after you drive past the other AIs you catch it and then it slows to to where it falls behind quite a few paces but by the time you do catch up, if you do, the race would be like 45% or so complete.
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#37 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 7:13:35 AM(UTC)
This isn't new, I think of it as "Godatar". It might have always been in FH3, but I really noticed with the Hot Wheels expansion in S1 class races. The Godatar doesn't always show up, but there was one race in Hot Wheels where it always did, so I did the race, all else being the same, on every difficulty. In every race, I finished 2nd by 0.1 to 0.8 seconds, but the gap to 3rd place evenly shrunk with each step up in difficulty. Obviously this isn't what changing the difficulty should mean, but here we are.

There seems to be some variability with the Godatar, as it doesn't always show up, and sometimes it backs off. If you play the game enough, you start guessing at the algorithm. I *think* if you can get to the front of the pack before about 40% of the race, there is a good chance the godatar will toggle off. There also seems to be certain races it just doesn't show up. Also, I'm not sure if it even shows up on any difficulty below above average. Stepping up the difficulty seems to up a coefficient for the godatar's acceleration and mechanical grip.

X1 Two's point about the game being designed to have you fight for 3rd the first half of the race and then fight for first the next 40% is accurate. I consider the Godatar a separate AI routine that Playground hasn't got right yet.

There is an adage for FH3 that applies to FH4, build for power, tune for handling. If you have a race with a Godatar, don't put PI into anything that isn't AWD, adding HP or reducing weight.
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#38 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 7:29:27 AM(UTC)
putting the difficulty on expert and above feels like the AI is defying the laws of physics....they somehow take corners without losing speed and grip is like they running on train tracks

Edited by user Sunday, October 7, 2018 7:35:08 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#39 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 8:44:39 AM(UTC)
What i have notice in last few day that when i make blueprint where is not that mutch car choise (like s1 rally monsters) ai speed feels like it should feel, but when i make race like anything go with no limits and i pick x-class car then i drive against ai drivers that use mostly somethink like ford focus or audi tt and abaout s920-930 tunes and those damn fords and audis are faster than my hypercar when i using just highly skilled drivatars and in first expamle i can win expert ai pretty easily. so sure there is somethink wrong with ai in this game.
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#40 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 9:56:59 AM(UTC)
Regardless of what strength I give the avatars they always hold the road turns at virtually any give speed. I'm an experienced driver but this version of Horizon seems incredibly frustrating to keep up with cars that appear to be defying the law of physics. As soon as I push the limits I'm the only one understeering, fishtailing, etc. We're all doing the same speed but the avatars never wipe out.
I'm curious if it's just me or others experience the same.
Rank: Driver's License
#41 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 10:07:43 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: simtechy Go to Quoted Post
Regardless of what strength I give the avatars they always hold the road turns at virtually any give speed. I'm an experienced driver but this version of Horizon seems incredibly frustrating to keep up with cars that appear to be defying the law of physics. As soon as I push the limits I'm the only one understeering, fishtailing, etc. We're all doing the same speed but the avatars never wipe out.
I'm curious if it's just me or others experience the same.


In before the forum admins remove this thread as well! Multiple complaints about this, the admins are sweeping a lot of these issues under the rug by removing these posts! I 1000% agree with you and so do 99% of other drivers! Seasons like Autumn and Winter where you slip and slide are broken as hell!
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#42 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 10:10:02 AM(UTC)
It appears most of you are new to the Forza series given your "Driving Since" date?

Here are the facts:

The AI in the Forza Horizon series CHEATS.

There is no doubt. There are countless videos online that show how they don't obey the same rules, or laws of physics players do e.g. They can go around check points without being penalized; AI are not effected by environmental hazards such as fences, debris and water; certain class cars that would in never keep up with other classes in the real world can somehow over take those lower classes and maintain impossible speeds; Blatant rubber banding can also be seen in races where you can break away from the pack, but seconds later the lead car is right on your tail (either by speeding up, or teleporting in behind you).

Anybody who tells you otherwise is LYING, or has an agenda of their own (the "get gud" posters).

To further back all of this up, players who mod the offline developer version of FH3 that was mistakenly released a few years ago confirm the AI gets a % speed boost, % weight reduction, and % grip boost depending on the difficulty level chosen. So, they are always ahead of the player no matter how well he/she tunes their car... That makes upgrading (tuning) in Forza Horizon completely useless.

As to the particular problem described by the OP:

This is what is known as the Rogue (Runaway) Drivatar. It started in Forza Mortorsport 5, and has never been fixed in the Forza Horizon series. A patch was issued in FM6, to stop Rogue Drivatars because it was acknowledged as an actual bug, but the patch never made its way to Forza Horizon because it's a different (but similar) development branch.

Those are the facts.

Welcome to the world of the most lazy & outdated racing AI ever to be in a game in the last 20 years...

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#43 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 10:11:37 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: X1 Two Go to Quoted Post
Drivatars only still exist in name, they don't actually use the driving skills of the people they represent.


This is confirmed by the names of friends from my Friend's List who don't even own, let alone play Forza Horizon games appearing in races.
Rank: Driver's License
#44 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 2:07:33 PM(UTC)
YEA ive noticed this to. to make a street race fun i have to jack up the difficultly. but a race with alot of tight corners or off road were its slick i cant keep up on low difficulty
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#45 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 3:03:14 PM(UTC)
I know right? Ever since they added the stupid drivatars into forza motorsport 5 ive noticed quite a lack of realism coming from them, its like they hug the road in such a way that it feels robotic, its like they're on some sort of rails or some thing, some of them arent even smart enough to get out of the way of traffic, and this always used to be a problem since Horizon 2.

I remember in horizon 2 i had like a crazy 70,000 skill combo going on, and all of the sudden this drivatar is driving on my lane, i hit the brakes full on and he just keeps accelerating and crashes into me like it was nothing, and the most annoying part is, that they always spawn around you to feel like the world is "alive" yet when you play forza horizon 4 on the xbox one S version there is rarely, and i do mean rarely a car being acted as traffic.

And do not get me started on icy or rainy conditions, those **** s will stick to the road no matter the consequences, hell they could be driving on duct tape tires, they would still perform just as well if not even better then the guy that has traction control off, abs off, stability control off, and basically all of the safety catches of the car off.

If im playing with traction control off, i am expecting the drivatar to play with traction control off, after all its not fair they get to stick to the snow better then me on snow tires, there is a reason why i stopped playing forza horizon after the 2nd one, and going back and buying this game reminds me why i actually hated horizon 2 in the first place. Horizon 1 was a dream, it reminded me of need for speed mixed with a bit of realism from the xbox 360 days. Also no matter what you do the drivatars will always and i mean always will get in your way
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#46 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 3:45:38 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: TCU FROGS 195 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: simtechy Go to Quoted Post
Regardless of what strength I give the avatars they always hold the road turns at virtually any give speed. I'm an experienced driver but this version of Horizon seems incredibly frustrating to keep up with cars that appear to be defying the law of physics. As soon as I push the limits I'm the only one understeering, fishtailing, etc. We're all doing the same speed but the avatars never wipe out.
I'm curious if it's just me or others experience the same.


In before the forum admins remove this thread as well! Multiple complaints about this, the admins are sweeping a lot of these issues under the rug by removing these posts!


Wrong. They condense them into a single thread so there's not multiple threads of the same topic. It helps the devs see outstanding problems and make's the forums move faster.

Ps. Talking about admins, cursing is against ToS and will get you banned if you do it enough
Rank: Driver's Permit
#47 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 6:12:00 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FantasticLemon Go to Quoted Post
AI speed seems barely affected by smashing through obstacles or bodies of water.

Doing the summer B class off-road championship (on Pro) it's really noticeable. These things barely have power enough to pull up hills so plowing through walls and such along the route really hurts the speed; but the AI just breeze on through like there's nothing there.


That's because they clip through the environment unless you are close enough to the AI to toggle collisions for them. I race with the unbeatable AI, and I've seen this a lot on all races.
It'll be interesting whether or not they (i.e. PG) issue a fix for this or just ignore it.

Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
What I have noticed about the AI is their strange "magnet" physics. Allows them to handle on dirt as if they were driving casually on asphalt, this makes them extremely tough on dirt courses. I'll have to record the anomalies where my friend and I are racing next to one and the physics in our cars go haywire and start jerking back and forth across the road, or completely flung off course.


Sounds like you might have experienced Lagged AI, if you were in a convoy with your friend. I've had this happen to me too. The AI was acting like someone with a bad internet connection. Even rammed my friend off the track.
Fun fact, I've been studying how AI works in Forza games since FM5 and the introduction of drivertars. I had a theory, until January of 2017 confirmed my suspicion.

Do you remember when PG messed up and accidentally released the developer version of FH3/ Subsequently ruined the announcement of the 2017 Bentley Continental Supersports?
Well around that time, videos came out of people playing the dev build and showing off all the stuff. One of the things that was in the dev build was power and grip multipliers.
I suspected that FH3's AI was using multipliers allowing cars to 'defy' the normal physics that the player is using in order to keep up. Honestly it was the only logical answer after seeing the AI almost flip their cars (SUV's in this case) in order to keep up with me. And post ridiculous lap times for the PI level and no tune. FH4 is similar.

How the AI/(Drivertars) work in the FH series as far as I know.

Imagine a large circle around your car that moves with you. The AI has to be within a set distance from or in that circle. And depending on how good you drive/how fast your car is, will deploy grip/power multipliers in order to keep up with you. Now this is more noticeable in circuit races, particularly the 50 lap ones because the game wasn't intended for 50 lap races. Having done hundreds of 50 lap races in FH3 and quite a few in FH4 and thousands in the FM series, I've had quite some time to study their behavior.

So the takeaway here is they clip through all objects unless you are close enough to them where collisions are enabled. They use grip/power multipliers when necessary. And they need to be a set distance from you if you are ahead. All while usually posting faster lap times than you. This makes cross country races ridiculous even with tunes. So in essence, yes you are racing cheating AI. Does this make the game fun? Well it depends on what your version of fun is. Can you beat them on Unbeatable? Yes, sometimes it takes some retries on sprint races to win by a second or two.
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#48 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 6:46:09 PM(UTC)
If your theory is true, it explains a lot.

Meaning, we all know the AI cheats, but how they cheat has always been a mystery.

I was aware of the multipliers from the developer version of FH3 accidentally released a few years ago, but not the "Circle of Influence" (COI) you theorize. Someone else speculated it might also be related to the world itself not being rendered for the AI that is out in front of you? Thus, why they can drive through solid objects like walls, but it will still be intact once you reach it. Your COI explains how this might be possible if the AI aren't within the proper radius to trigger collision with world objects as well.

If all of this is true, it makes sense because Forza is primarily a console game that needs to manage memory and CPU cycles a lot more efficiently than a gaming PC.

Originally Posted by: Luxautica VIP Go to Quoted Post
It'll be interesting whether or not they (i.e. PG) issue a fix for this or just ignore it.


My guess is "No"... Mostly due to consoles limited hardware, but also because they don't want to admit how limited (bad) the AI is in these games?

Die hard Forza Horizon fans know the AI cheats and is primitive by today's standards, but the average consumer does not... Nor do many of them care e.g. If it's too hard, they'll just turn down the difficulty.

Luxautica wrote:
So the takeaway here is they clip through all objects unless you are close enough to them where collisions are enabled. They use grip/power multipliers when necessary. And they need to be a set distance from you if you are ahead. All while usually posting faster lap times than you. This makes cross country races ridiculous even with tunes. So in essence, yes you are racing cheating AI. Does this make the game fun? Well it depends on what your version of fun is. Can you beat them on Unbeatable? Yes, sometimes it takes some retries on sprint races to win by a second or two.


The problem is it seems to effect ALL the difficulties at one time or another. Even the lowest Drivatars ("New Driver") can behave like "Unbeatable" and vice versa. The inconsistent behavior may, or may not be related to any of this, but it makes sense considering the entire system may depend on the player's car / driving ability. Even at lower levels, the AI might get "confused" if it isn't in the COI and revert to either an overpowered, or under-powered state, perhaps?
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#49 Posted : Sunday, October 7, 2018 10:04:33 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: CaktuzJak Go to Quoted Post
If your theory is true, it explains a lot.

Meaning, we all know the AI cheats, but how they cheat has always been a mystery.

I was aware of the multipliers from the developer version of FH3 accidentally released a few years ago, but not the "Circle of Influence" (COI) you theorize. Someone else speculated it might also be related to the world itself not being rendered for the AI that is out in front of you? Thus, why they can drive through solid objects like walls, but it will still be intact once you reach it. Your COI explains how this might be possible if the AI aren't within the proper radius to trigger collision with world objects as well.

If all of this is true, it makes sense because Forza is primarily a console game that needs to manage memory and CPU cycles a lot more efficiently than a gaming PC.

Originally Posted by: Luxautica VIP Go to Quoted Post
It'll be interesting whether or not they (i.e. PG) issue a fix for this or just ignore it.


My guess is "No"... Mostly due to consoles limited hardware, but also because they don't want to admit how limited (bad) the AI is in these games?

Die hard Forza Horizon fans know the AI cheats and is primitive by today's standards, but the average consumer does not... Nor do many of them care e.g. If it's too hard, they'll just turn down the difficulty.

Luxautica wrote:
So the takeaway here is they clip through all objects unless you are close enough to them where collisions are enabled. They use grip/power multipliers when necessary. And they need to be a set distance from you if you are ahead. All while usually posting faster lap times than you. This makes cross country races ridiculous even with tunes. So in essence, yes you are racing cheating AI. Does this make the game fun? Well it depends on what your version of fun is. Can you beat them on Unbeatable? Yes, sometimes it takes some retries on sprint races to win by a second or two.


The problem is it seems to effect ALL the difficulties at one time or another. Even the lowest Drivatars ("New Driver") can behave like "Unbeatable" and vice versa. The inconsistent behavior may, or may not be related to any of this, but it makes sense considering the entire system may depend on the player's car / driving ability. Even at lower levels, the AI might get "confused" if it isn't in the COI and revert to either an overpowered, or under-powered state, perhaps?


I guess This thread was merged. Hmm. Well anyways as far as clipping goes I got your proof here.

So this is an AI in first place clipping through the scenery. Obviously it has loaded, I even went as far back as where my car was and looked and the fence was loaded. And ironically the camera stoped there right at the point where the AI is clipping. In it's own COI so to speak.


Heh "Circle of Influence". I like that. But yeah, same logic apples for pop in, LOD's, world detail, etc. Would AI really be out of the question?
As far as it scaling to the car/abilities I can confirm that. I was doing a 50 lap co-op race with a friend (he also races on unbeatable) he isn't the same skill level as me though. In that race the AI took off and was lapping my friend as was I, naturally being more used to this speed/behavior of the AI. He was kind of dumbfounded about it, he claimed that solo he can usually take on the unbeatable AI.

Edited by user Sunday, October 7, 2018 10:33:26 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#50 Posted : Monday, October 8, 2018 8:21:52 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Luxautica VIP Go to Quoted Post


I guess This thread was merged. Hmm. Well anyways as far as clipping goes I got your proof here.

So this is an AI in first place clipping through the scenery. Obviously it has loaded, I even went as far back as where my car was and looked and the fence was loaded. And ironically the camera stoped there right at the point where the AI is clipping. In it's own COI so to speak.


Heh "Circle of Influence". I like that. But yeah, same logic apples for pop in, LOD's, world detail, etc. Would AI really be out of the question?
As far as it scaling to the car/abilities I can confirm that. I was doing a 50 lap co-op race with a friend (he also races on unbeatable) he isn't the same skill level as me though. In that race the AI took off and was lapping my friend as was I, naturally being more used to this speed/behavior of the AI. He was kind of dumbfounded about it, he claimed that solo he can usually take on the unbeatable AI.


I have the PC (and XBOX) versions of FH4, and have done tests at 30fps and 60fps to see if there is any difference in AI responsiveness on the PC version.

As you may have guessed, at 30fps, the AI behaves a little better due to things not being rendered as fast, but it's still broken with Rogue Drivatars, clipping through objects, driving according to their own physics (% boosts, etc). The real difference at 30fps is the difficulty scaling in Solo races in my tests. "New Driver" behaves like new drivers, for the most part and I can beat them easily as expected. It only starts to go off the rails around "Highly Skilled" where we start to see the problems we've been discussing. Anything above that, and it doesn't matter if it's 30fps, or 60fps. This just confirms players don't need to tune/upgrade in Forza Horizon unless they want a (unfair) challenge at higher levels.

I also noticed different levels of motion blur also seem to reign in the Drivatars a little... Which wouldn't be out of the question if their navigation is tied to frame rate and rendering calculations that are increased by adding motion blur of varying levels.
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