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Rank: Driver's Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#276 Posted : Tuesday, August 6, 2019 9:23:59 AM(UTC)
The AI definitely cheats when it comes to obstacles - if they are far enough ahead of you (but not far enough that you can't see them), they will literally just ghost through the low walls and fences that you have to drive through in Cross Country races. You can easily see this simply by the fact that they drive straight through them, and they are still completely intact when you get there a couple of seconds later.

They also have ridiculous speed and handling in cars that, frankly, should not (and do not, if you are driving them). Seeing an SUV doing 250+ MPH and taking corners like nothing is extremely jarring and nonsensical.

Here's my strategy for basically every race: Ram the AI in the corners, block them from passing after I get into first. That's really the only way you can win, by using cheap tactics like this. I wouldn't call it a fun experience overall, and my alternative is to go get rammed repeatedly in Online Adventure.

Edited by user Tuesday, August 6, 2019 9:28:17 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#277 Posted : Tuesday, August 6, 2019 9:59:16 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
When you pass on the outside and they instantaneously shove you off the road

I have seen that happening on Unbeatable.

@Aquapainter.
I forgot to ask, what difficulty level you used on video?
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#278 Posted : Tuesday, August 6, 2019 10:13:59 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: AFireEternal Go to Quoted Post
The AI definitely cheats when it comes to obstacles - if they are far enough ahead of you (but not far enough that you can't see them), they will literally just ghost through the low walls and fences that you have to drive through in Cross Country races. You can easily see this simply by the fact that they drive straight through them, and they are still completely intact when you get there a couple of seconds later.

They also have ridiculous speed and handling in cars that, frankly, should not (and do not, if you are driving them). Seeing an SUV doing 250+ MPH and taking corners like nothing is extremely jarring and nonsensical.

Here's my strategy for basically every race: Ram the AI in the corners, block them from passing after I get into first. That's really the only way you can win, by using cheap tactics like this. I wouldn't call it a fun experience overall, and my alternative is to go get rammed repeatedly in Online Adventure.

What difficulty level?

Cross Country isn't my strongest suite but depending of route and car I usually win with stock vehicle vs. AI on pro without ramming or blocking. I tend to play lower class cars though but just today beat the Marathon with stock Mustang 2+2 Fastback, PI C-502 car. I don't recall exactly my winning margin vs Drivatar coming to second place but it was 6 - 9 seconds, that Drivatar was using Renault Alpine A110 PI at stock is C-522. I have actually beaten Drivatars with that car on same route vs. 30 points disadvantage.

I suggest try learning to routes by doing Rivals, look back for what Tilo posted. Start disabling Driving aids excluding braking line, also try doing some races first with lower class cars before going to A+ cars.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#279 Posted : Tuesday, August 6, 2019 11:17:27 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
When you pass on the outside and they instantaneously shove you off the road

I have seen that happening on Unbeatable.

@Aquapainter.
I forgot to ask, what difficulty level you used on video?


It's on Unbeatable, the Car is an S2, and I was trying to keep the cars in the View without racing off to have a boring video. So I was drifting a bit more than usual.

Edited by user Tuesday, August 6, 2019 12:04:13 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#280 Posted : Tuesday, August 6, 2019 11:21:23 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: AquaPainter168 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
When you pass on the outside and they instantaneously shove you off the road

I have seen that happening on Unbeatable.

@Aquapainter.
I forgot to ask, what difficulty level you used on video?


It's on Unbeatable, the Car is an S2, and I was trying to keep the cars in the View without racing off to have a boring video. So I was drifting a bit more than usual.

Thanks. Drivatar behaviour looks better than I expected and what I have seen and encountered on some Trials.

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#281 Posted : Tuesday, August 6, 2019 11:37:40 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
When you pass on the outside and they instantaneously shove you off the road

I have seen that happening on Unbeatable.


It used to happen a lot, I must be better at knowing where I can sneak past or not. When it happens, a rewind usually fixes it, they act different after a collision>rewind.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#282 Posted : Wednesday, August 7, 2019 11:21:37 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
When you pass on the outside and they instantaneously shove you off the road

I have seen that happening on Unbeatable.


It used to happen a lot, I must be better at knowing where I can sneak past or not. When it happens, a rewind usually fixes it, they act different after a collision>rewind.

For me it has looked that Rewind can reset Drivatars somehow and cause them lose sense of their position on track related to other traffic, they may need to figure out their driving line etc. I'm not sure that some swiping and ramming I have seen on Trials is unintended of buggy behavior. I think it might be possible that it's intended on Unbeatable to be aggressive to hold their position. If, I speculate, that's the case then Rewind doesn't fix them in programming sense, but they "forget" that they were going to side swipe. Rewind in Trials is rarely good idea so can't say much else.
Rank: Racing Permit
#283 Posted : Saturday, August 10, 2019 4:53:24 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: InflnityLlon Go to Quoted Post
https://youtu.be/kvx2y4ZuKbQ

I'm just gonna drop this here in hopes that the devs will watch the video and learn something from it in terms of how difficulty should work in a racing game. Because it does get kind of interesting when an AI can go above it's own top speed even though it shouldn't be able to(even if it has upgrades attached). :)

I'm quite interested about this and our current Drivatars especially regarding custom routes and based from what I have been reading from Reddit there is a trend where some players always set difficulty to Unbeatable on custom routes, because Drivatars can't keep up with player on lower difficulties. I have also noticed that myself that Drivatars aren't doing that well on custom routes and I moved on Pro difficulty months ago.

I understand you are referring to single player content. It would help if you could give more detail, like what difficulty level you in FH4 you are referring to. On Unbeatable difficulty there have been reports from experienced players I consider experts in topic about Caterham (don't recall which one) sometimes going on absurd speeds and one of the buggies having limitless acceleration. Latter one was confirmed bug regarding that specific vehicle. I can't comment more about Unbeatable though.

However what comes to Pro and lower difficulties with exception of couple of oddities I haven't seen that unfair advantage.

I race mostly plain stock vehicles on D - C class and sometimes B and A. Few things come more and more clear going up on difficulty levels.

On higher difficulties not every car in their stock for can win every race and at the same time higher classes S1 and S2 get more difficult. It's IMO higher speeds which leads to having less reaction time, more g-forces and aggressively tuned Drivatars that take advantage of upgrades leads to that stock Porsche or Lambo, whatever, may not be competitive for reasons that have nothing to do Drivatars having unfair advantage. I needed to repeat some race in one of the weekly champs few times because I haven't tuned my Lambo Spyder very well, actually I had given tuning much of the thought at all. On wet surface I was taken by surprise when I didn't get my win by practically fast cruising even with PI disadvantage. So I needed to learn to get those curves right, tuned some of the understeering out, etc. and managed to beat the race.

What happened was that I needed to learn some tricks to beat that race. Video you posted have a segment about how well designed difficulty creates opportunities to learn. What is unclear to me is how it relates to FH4 which for my experience does that?

I don't say Drivatars are flawless or that the PI system is perfect but in the end what matters is time. Maybe some of the blame Drivatar system gets isn't about them, but that game doesn't necessarily communicate how and why player is losing at the best possible manner to players. Making Drivatars slower would give easier wins, but if time needed were say under 4:24,xxx and then you win with time 4:27,xxx what happens that player may get satisfaction for winning, without actually getting any better in the game.

But like I wrote above, game isn't perfect but complains about unfair Drivatars lack concrete evidence and it's difficult to get how they should be improved when these concrete examples are missing.


I'm sorry if I only manage to answer one of your questions in your reply as I'm very tired right now and I'm about to go to bed after this. But anyways, I usually play with the AI on unbeatable most of the time now mainly to see if they will brake away a corner or will floor it through the corner and fly into a tree. Unbeatable AI for some weird reason lose their sense to brake for corners and only know how to go forward and nothing else. They do this because they're programmed to win at all costs. And if it isn't necessary to brake to win the race, the AI will ignore all physics and take a 90 degree corner at over 100mph(160.9kph). Sorry if my grammar isn't good right now, I'm half awake typing this. :(
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#284 Posted : Saturday, August 10, 2019 2:59:02 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
When you pass on the outside and they instantaneously shove you off the road

I have seen that happening on Unbeatable.


It used to happen a lot, I must be better at knowing where I can sneak past or not. When it happens, a rewind usually fixes it, they act different after a collision>rewind.

For me it has looked that Rewind can reset Drivatars somehow and cause them lose sense of their position on track related to other traffic, they may need to figure out their driving line etc. I'm not sure that some swiping and ramming I have seen on Trials is unintended of buggy behavior. I think it might be possible that it's intended on Unbeatable to be aggressive to hold their position. If, I speculate, that's the case then Rewind doesn't fix them in programming sense, but they "forget" that they were going to side swipe. Rewind in Trials is rarely good idea so can't say much else.

I don't think it's a "side swipe". If the player approaches quickly on their inside through a corner, they dodge out of the way to allow the palyer to pass, sometimes tossing themselves or other AI off the track. If the player approaches quickly to pass on the outside of an AI driver, the same logic is applied... the AI dodges outwards... into the player, sometimes sending both the player and offending AI off the track.

Rank: D-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#285 Posted : Saturday, August 10, 2019 5:38:14 PM(UTC)
I'm tired of the ramming and bumping from Ai. I expect that foul driving from real people, but don't make me have to deal with it when racing against Ai.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#286 Posted : Sunday, August 11, 2019 7:44:21 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: InflnityLlon Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: InflnityLlon Go to Quoted Post
https://youtu.be/kvx2y4ZuKbQ

..snip..

But like I wrote above, game isn't perfect but complains about unfair Drivatars lack concrete evidence and it's difficult to get how they should be improved when these concrete examples are missing.


I'm sorry if I only manage to answer one of your questions in your reply as I'm very tired right now and I'm about to go to bed after this. But anyways, I usually play with the AI on unbeatable most of the time now mainly to see if they will brake away a corner or will floor it through the corner and fly into a tree. Unbeatable AI for some weird reason lose their sense to brake for corners and only know how to go forward and nothing else. They do this because they're programmed to win at all costs. And if it isn't necessary to brake to win the race, the AI will ignore all physics and take a 90 degree corner at over 100mph(160.9kph). Sorry if my grammar isn't good right now, I'm half awake typing this. :(

Okay. As I wrote I usually play on Pro with my experience of Unbeatable pretty much limited to weekly Trials. I think it's useful post though for others to compare notes and maybe this can get enough attention to get on developers. Also see my comment below as reply to other post.

BTW I have seen late braking happening on Pro difficulty too, but that was on one custom route and only on one curve. It looked quite weird. I made more than 10 races on that trail, which was very good and Drivatars always did the same in one particular curve.

Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
[quote=NumberlessMath;1118627]When you pass on the outside and they instantaneously shove you off the road

I have seen that happening on Unbeatable.


It used to happen a lot, I must be better at knowing where I can sneak past or not. When it happens, a rewind usually fixes it, they act different after a collision>rewind.

For me it has looked that Rewind can reset Drivatars somehow and cause them lose sense of their position on track related to other traffic, they may need to figure out their driving line etc. I'm not sure that some swiping and ramming I have seen on Trials is unintended of buggy behavior. I think it might be possible that it's intended on Unbeatable to be aggressive to hold their position. If, I speculate, that's the case then Rewind doesn't fix them in programming sense, but they "forget" that they were going to side swipe. Rewind in Trials is rarely good idea so can't say much else.

I don't think it's a "side swipe". If the player approaches quickly on their inside through a corner, they dodge out of the way to allow the palyer to pass, sometimes tossing themselves or other AI off the track. If the player approaches quickly to pass on the outside of an AI driver, the same logic is applied... the AI dodges outwards... into the player, sometimes sending both the player and offending AI off the track.

What you write would makes sense. Could it be timing related? I'm just guessing here but side wipes I have seen on unbeatable have happened oddly fast. Like Drivatar almost side jumping from it's driving line. I recall seeing something like odd staggering happening before that but that's been very rare.
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