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Rank: Racing Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#251 Posted : Saturday, May 18, 2019 12:56:25 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Oh here we go again with "The AI is too hard waahhh" Give me a break.


AI is not hard. AI is awfully balanced.

Did the railway track with the Ford transit, they all got stuck in the tunnel. Finished wayyyyyyyyy before AI.

did the street races with the japanese cars, all the AI had GT R35, with crazy speed, perfect corners (+ the sprints are bad, almost threw my controller against the wall, tried the races maybe 20 times), at least for the 3 first cars..

The other cars just follow the line and crash into pedestrian cars. Since the roads are narrow, you basically crash into them because of their awful AI.

Still first with the MX5 Miata.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#252 Posted : Saturday, May 18, 2019 3:18:39 AM(UTC)
The street race just took me 2 attempts, because I missed a check point. I just remembered the part where it was going to be difficult, and that helped me to get through it.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#253 Posted : Saturday, May 18, 2019 11:31:54 AM(UTC)
I keep doing weekly championships on expert and Drivatars messed up and blocked tunnel between cargo containers. It was final lap and I was on second position, pretty close to leading Drivatar. I was driving Ford Transit SSV (not FE) with some upgrades, tyres, weight reduction, no AWD swap, though. Funny thing is that leading Drivatar ( took the right ramp, so even it had taken tunnel route on earlier laps. So Drivatar saw something I didn't until I was in a tunnel and then it was too late. No issue really though, even I don't use other assists I keep braking line and rewind on, even I don't usually use it, even if I mess up a lap this time I used rewind, took left ramp and won the race and champ.

For Japanese S1 championship I used Nissan Nissan GT-R '12 Black Edition stock. Won all the races with ease. It's just crazy good car and how fast it's on corners felt at times even unreal. Then I have spent a lot of time with stock Classic Racers lately.

Edit: Didn't notice anything off with Drivatars during Japanese champ.

Edited by user Saturday, May 18, 2019 11:33:30 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's License
#254 Posted : Friday, June 14, 2019 10:00:14 AM(UTC)
Bump. It's still bad.
Rank: Driver's Permit
 2 users liked this post.
#255 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2019 4:42:45 AM(UTC)
Heh, what's with the drivatars speeding in extreme offroad "cars" from 0 (zero) to Warp 9.9 in a split second when playing Highly Skilled or above? Below Highly skilled they're acting more or less in a sane manner and not resorting to black magic and outright cheating. Also, what's with the physics? If you ram a drivatar, you slow down. But if THEY ram you, they send you to low Earth orbit...
Rank: Racing Permit
#256 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2019 5:13:58 PM(UTC)
Stupid catch-up mechanics implemented in Forza, they're not going to do anything about it. Solution is probably to stop caring for the e-peen and lower the difficulty to the lowest needed to pass a certain championship requirement.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#257 Posted : Saturday, June 22, 2019 5:22:19 AM(UTC)
Faking the Ai physics is designed to make the races more exciting, and it's quite good I think. The Ai can't be knocked away from the flags easily else someone would take advantage of that.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#258 Posted : Saturday, June 29, 2019 3:05:18 PM(UTC)
I'm using a fully modified 999+ X mosler mt900s, accelerates to over 200 mph in less than 10 seconds and handles very smooth at high speeds, but in street races and such I'm being outmaneuvered and dusted by GTRs, trucks, corvettes, and other vehicles that are nowhere close to the acceleration of mine.
It's like the game boosts their performance to Match mine. they all take off basically instantly as my mosler does and turns corners smooth going over 160mph, and even speed way far ahead of my car.
If I use a different car the others are not so monstrously fast and maneuverable.
what is the point of me having such a vehicle and being able to build it If the game is just going to automatically make other cars I'm racing equal to or better than my own?
Rank: C-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#259 Posted : Sunday, June 30, 2019 11:27:24 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FantasticLemon Go to Quoted Post
AI speed seems barely affected by smashing through obstacles or bodies of water.

Doing the summer B class off-road championship (on Pro) it's really noticeable. These things barely have power enough to pull up hills so plowing through walls and such along the route really hurts the speed; but the AI just breeze on through like there's nothing there.


This is one of the few things that irk me about the gameplay - the AI seems to take corners at impossible speeds and catch up to you out of nowhere even though they were several kms behind a few turns earlier!
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#260 Posted : Monday, July 1, 2019 9:16:25 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FantasticLemon Go to Quoted Post
AI speed seems barely affected by smashing through obstacles or bodies of water.

Doing the summer B class off-road championship (on Pro) it's really noticeable. These things barely have power enough to pull up hills so plowing through walls and such along the route really hurts the speed; but the AI just breeze on through like there's nothing there.


This is one of the few things that irk me about the gameplay - the AI seems to take corners at impossible speeds and catch up to you out of nowhere even though they were several kms behind a few turns earlier!


I don't understand how you got ahead in the first place, and don't have the skill to stay ahead.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#261 Posted : Monday, July 1, 2019 10:25:03 PM(UTC)
Quick tips for beginners :
- Disregard top power tunes, these are just doing bad, prefer balanced tunes and low weight.
- Brake soon, turn, accelerate, is far more effective than braking as late as possible
- Avoid collisions, the more you have the better AI will be.
- Manual gears is far more effective for race start.
- Do some rivals, it helps a lot to improve racing skills.

Neo open your mind, you are just a drivatar
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#262 Posted : Monday, July 1, 2019 10:30:41 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Tilo38 Go to Quoted Post
Quick tips for beginners :
- Disregard top power tunes, these are just doing bad, prefer balanced tunes and low weight.
- Brake soon, turn, accelerate, is far more effective than braking as late as possible
- Avoid collisions, the more you have the better AI will be.
- Manual gears is far more effective for race start.
- Do some rivals, it helps a lot to improve racing skills.



The amount of collisions does not alter drivatar speed.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#263 Posted : Monday, July 1, 2019 10:55:18 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Tilo38 Go to Quoted Post
Quick tips for beginners :
- Disregard top power tunes, these are just doing bad, prefer balanced tunes and low weight.
- Brake soon, turn, accelerate, is far more effective than braking as late as possible
- Avoid collisions, the more you have the better AI will be.
- Manual gears is far more effective for race start.
- Do some rivals, it helps a lot to improve racing skills.



The amount of collisions does not alter drivatar speed.


I have no evidence of it, but that is my feeling, I play only unbeatable, occurred to have small slow downs and it looks to me drivatars got a huge boost from it, like coming back to me despite having put them 5s secs away,
Neo open your mind, you are just a drivatar
Rank: Racing Permit
#264 Posted : Tuesday, July 2, 2019 1:42:43 AM(UTC)
AI is broken above the "Above average / average" difficulty settings. It's a given.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#265 Posted : Tuesday, July 2, 2019 4:51:36 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Tilo38 Go to Quoted Post
Quick tips for beginners :
- Disregard top power tunes, these are just doing bad, prefer balanced tunes and low weight.
- Brake soon, turn, accelerate, is far more effective than braking as late as possible
- Avoid collisions, the more you have the better AI will be.
- Manual gears is far more effective for race start.
- Do some rivals, it helps a lot to improve racing skills.



The amount of collisions does not alter drivatar speed.


I think it does. If I hit a tree a car miles away suddenly catches up, it's also harder to catch. It's not bad programming though, games can't be realistic else they aren't so much fun.

Edited by user Tuesday, July 2, 2019 4:55:57 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#266 Posted : Friday, July 5, 2019 9:02:14 AM(UTC)
Will you increase drivatar difficulty it doesn't make the opponents better drivers it just gives them nitrous injection and make them utter beasts. I finally decided to turn my drivatar difficulty up to Pro and in the first race the fronts for cars shut off at 300 + mile per hour and when I finally caught up with them they did everything they could to push me off into barriers and block me by braking hard everytime I approached, the Most Extreme example of this was when I tried to overtake after a corner and the car just kept trying to push me into the wall so I rewound and let off the accelerator slightly which allow me to undertake and it continue to try to push me off and went into the wall himself. Why is it that increasing the difficulty just makes it so that the driving becomes dirtier rather than cleaner? I don't see the point of increasing difficulty if it's just going to make the driving experience more unpleasant.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#267 Posted : Saturday, July 6, 2019 3:28:35 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: desolate master Go to Quoted Post
Will you increase drivatar difficulty it doesn't make the opponents better drivers it just gives them nitrous injection and make them utter beasts. I finally decided to turn my drivatar difficulty up to Pro and in the first race the fronts for cars shut off at 300 + mile per hour and when I finally caught up with them they did everything they could to push me off into barriers and block me by braking hard everytime I approached, the Most Extreme example of this was when I tried to overtake after a corner and the car just kept trying to push me into the wall so I rewound and let off the accelerator slightly which allow me to undertake and it continue to try to push me off and went into the wall himself. Why is it that increasing the difficulty just makes it so that the driving becomes dirtier rather than cleaner? I don't see the point of increasing difficulty if it's just going to make the driving experience more unpleasant.

I have couple to perhaps three hundred races on Pro. I do mostly Street, Road and Dirt racing.

There might be some sort of aggression parameter in their programming, but normally if there aren't any collisions they avoid colliding with player and even give room to pass between them and random traffic car in Street races. They can ram if player takes position in their path but slows down, which can happen when player takes inner curve, cuts right on front of Drivatar but loses speed in a process for example. Other than that they actually do race against each other and change positions at least when visible to player which can explain slowing down, this might be due to make rubberband less obvious, that may cause some issues if you are coming in very hot though. What comes to genuine blocking I saw Drivatars blocking other players and experienced that also myself during one of the past Trials which are on Unbeatable. Heck, one player was sideswiped to tree when trying to pass by Drivatar, but I have never seen anything similar happen on Pro.

On Pro Drivatars may use more tuned vehicles and try to take advantage of vehicles abilities more aggressively than on lower difficulties. If your upgrades are on handling side you may face a challenge because Drivatars appear to prefer horsepower and speed in their upgrades. For example I have '82 Porsche 911 upgraded to lower A-class with some handling and very little performance parts, with some tuning. While on Expert it could win every race against Drivatars on Pro there are routes that are difficult. There are other examples, Porsche #185 959 Prodrive stock wins most of the shorter circuits easily enough but it gets very difficult against Subaru's on longer higher speed circuits. Not every car in the game within class is equal, and that comes more apparent on Pro.

Main difference to Expert is IMO that Drivatars are genuinely a bit faster on Pro, perhaps 1-2 seconds on average route compared to Expert. It's more important to make less mistakes on Pro than on Expert, which is natural. Things like throttle control in the start to get best grip and acceleration is more important. Drivatars make less mistakes but still rubberband which can be for players advantage within 5 to 10 second bracket or so in trail races, it may be a bit different on circuits.

Today I did all the Street Races on Pro with stock '82 Nissan Skyline GTS-R (R31) stock. Won all but one event in Broadway which was the first one I raced with Skyline, needed to try couple of others two times to win them but IMO it was all in the process of learning the car I haven't used before.
Rank: Racing Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#268 Posted : Friday, July 26, 2019 12:43:15 PM(UTC)
https://youtu.be/kvx2y4ZuKbQ

I'm just gonna drop this here in hopes that the devs will watch the video and learn something from it in terms of how difficulty should work in a racing game. Because it does get kind of interesting when an AI can go above it's own top speed even though it shouldn't be able to(even if it has upgrades attached). :)
Rank: D-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#269 Posted : Sunday, August 4, 2019 8:10:40 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: InflnityLlon Go to Quoted Post
https://youtu.be/kvx2y4ZuKbQ

I'm just gonna drop this here in hopes that the devs will watch the video and learn something from it in terms of how difficulty should work in a racing game. Because it does get kind of interesting when an AI can go above it's own top speed even though it shouldn't be able to(even if it has upgrades attached). :)

I'm quite interested about this and our current Drivatars especially regarding custom routes and based from what I have been reading from Reddit there is a trend where some players always set difficulty to Unbeatable on custom routes, because Drivatars can't keep up with player on lower difficulties. I have also noticed that myself that Drivatars aren't doing that well on custom routes and I moved on Pro difficulty months ago.

I understand you are referring to single player content. It would help if you could give more detail, like what difficulty level you in FH4 you are referring to. On Unbeatable difficulty there have been reports from experienced players I consider experts in topic about Caterham (don't recall which one) sometimes going on absurd speeds and one of the buggies having limitless acceleration. Latter one was confirmed bug regarding that specific vehicle. I can't comment more about Unbeatable though.

However what comes to Pro and lower difficulties with exception of couple of oddities I haven't seen that unfair advantage.

I race mostly plain stock vehicles on D - C class and sometimes B and A. Few things come more and more clear going up on difficulty levels.

On higher difficulties not every car in their stock for can win every race and at the same time higher classes S1 and S2 get more difficult. It's IMO higher speeds which leads to having less reaction time, more g-forces and aggressively tuned Drivatars that take advantage of upgrades leads to that stock Porsche or Lambo, whatever, may not be competitive for reasons that have nothing to do Drivatars having unfair advantage. I needed to repeat some race in one of the weekly champs few times because I haven't tuned my Lambo Spyder very well, actually I had given tuning much of the thought at all. On wet surface I was taken by surprise when I didn't get my win by practically fast cruising even with PI disadvantage. So I needed to learn to get those curves right, tuned some of the understeering out, etc. and managed to beat the race.

What happened was that I needed to learn some tricks to beat that race. Video you posted have a segment about how well designed difficulty creates opportunities to learn. What is unclear to me is how it relates to FH4 which for my experience does that?

I don't say Drivatars are flawless or that the PI system is perfect but in the end what matters is time. Maybe some of the blame Drivatar system gets isn't about them, but that game doesn't necessarily communicate how and why player is losing at the best possible manner to players. Making Drivatars slower would give easier wins, but if time needed were say under 4:24,xxx and then you win with time 4:27,xxx what happens that player may get satisfaction for winning, without actually getting any better in the game.

But like I wrote above, game isn't perfect but complains about unfair Drivatars lack concrete evidence and it's difficult to get how they should be improved when these concrete examples are missing.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#270 Posted : Sunday, August 4, 2019 11:34:12 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FantasticLemon Go to Quoted Post
AI speed seems barely affected by smashing through obstacles or bodies of water.

Doing the summer B class off-road championship (on Pro) it's really noticeable. These things barely have power enough to pull up hills so plowing through walls and such along the route really hurts the speed; but the AI just breeze on through like there's nothing there.


Turn10 use the same AI for all there games, they drive like on rails, and do not "see" you when racing. If you play Forza Motorsport 3, the AI drive the same. And there is always AI drivers who have a top speed like a comet and pull away from you with ease on any surface.

It do not matter if you play on easy or unbeatable AI, the drive the same, the only diff. is the top speed. The AI takes the joy out of the game, since they have strip the from anything else the game had in the past.


Rank: A-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#271 Posted : Monday, August 5, 2019 1:30:38 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Fnuggy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FantasticLemon Go to Quoted Post
AI speed seems barely affected by smashing through obstacles or bodies of water.

Doing the summer B class off-road championship (on Pro) it's really noticeable. These things barely have power enough to pull up hills so plowing through walls and such along the route really hurts the speed; but the AI just breeze on through like there's nothing there.


Turn10 use the same AI for all there games, they drive like on rails, and do not "see" you when racing. If you play Forza Motorsport 3, the AI drive the same. And there is always AI drivers who have a top speed like a comet and pull away from you with ease on any surface.

It do not matter if you play on easy or unbeatable AI, the drive the same, the only diff. is the top speed. The AI takes the joy out of the game, since they have strip the from anything else the game had in the past.




The Ai do see you at close range. I've made lots of videos where you can see the Ai responding to my car... https://1drv.ms/v/s!AmzbbKlGGhhgtkURt8Oq3O6TChVS?e=fVBGSR

Edited by user Monday, August 5, 2019 8:49:07 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
#272 Posted : Monday, August 5, 2019 1:43:23 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: AquaPainter168 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Fnuggy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FantasticLemon Go to Quoted Post
AI speed seems barely affected by smashing through obstacles or bodies of water.

Doing the summer B class off-road championship (on Pro) it's really noticeable. These things barely have power enough to pull up hills so plowing through walls and such along the route really hurts the speed; but the AI just breeze on through like there's nothing there.


Turn10 use the same AI for all there games, they drive like on rails, and do not "see" you when racing. If you play Forza Motorsport 3, the AI drive the same. And there is always AI drivers who have a top speed like a comet and pull away from you with ease on any surface.

It do not matter if you play on easy or unbeatable AI, the drive the same, the only diff. is the top speed. The AI takes the joy out of the game, since they have strip the from anything else the game had in the past.




The Ai do see you at close range. I've made lots of videos where you can see the Ai responding to my car... https://youtu.be/cNBaMv56-9I


I know, they did that in Forza Motorsport 3 aswell :-D But still the AI are still driving on rails and many times racing randomly and smashing in to the player, pushing the player of the track, and the AI have glue like grip.

I really hope Turn10 will make an better AI. Any other racing game, has a better AI than Forza games has.


Rank: D-Class Racing License
#273 Posted : Monday, August 5, 2019 4:16:14 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: AquaPainter168 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Fnuggy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FantasticLemon Go to Quoted Post
AI speed seems barely affected by smashing through obstacles or bodies of water.

Doing the summer B class off-road championship (on Pro) it's really noticeable. These things barely have power enough to pull up hills so plowing through walls and such along the route really hurts the speed; but the AI just breeze on through like there's nothing there.


Turn10 use the same AI for all there games, they drive like on rails, and do not "see" you when racing. If you play Forza Motorsport 3, the AI drive the same. And there is always AI drivers who have a top speed like a comet and pull away from you with ease on any surface.

It do not matter if you play on easy or unbeatable AI, the drive the same, the only diff. is the top speed. The AI takes the joy out of the game, since they have strip the from anything else the game had in the past.




The Ai do see you at close range. I've made lots of videos where you can see the Ai responding to my car... https://1drv.ms/v/s!AmzbbKlGGhhgtkURt8Oq3O6TChVS?e=fVBGSR

Didn't watch the whole video but what I saw from first minutes, it's pretty good demonstration of things you said. Also, very clearly not on rails even when player isn't within 5 meters.

Just today I was in Street Race, there was oncoming traffic while I was passing Drivatar car from the right, Drivatar changed it's driving line to the left which allowed me to not brake and get behind but continue without crashing to oncoming vehicle.

Very different kind of definition for "on rails" some of us have. Welcome to the Internet and no harm done and all, but still.

But really great video, thanks for posting. Hope people who are curious check it out too.

Edited by user Monday, August 5, 2019 4:17:07 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#274 Posted : Tuesday, August 6, 2019 5:26:51 AM(UTC)
The only thing that bugs me is that the AI has maximum grip even on wet roads.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#275 Posted : Tuesday, August 6, 2019 9:00:40 AM(UTC)
When you pass on the outside and they instantaneously shove you off the road
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