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Rank: S-Class Racing License
#326 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2019 6:18:57 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: CW40 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Ialyrn Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CW40 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GreatFlea815883 Go to Quoted Post
Play it with a controller if you have to. It took them 13 years for Forza to have decent FFB. In a few years, maybe they will iron out the physics enough for it to play well on wheels.


Exactly. Finally a realistic and rational comment. Just play it with a controller. It will never have a good feel with a wheel because it wasn't meant to. All you people bickering like children over wheel setups need to just accept it and have fun with the game as it's meant to be played. If you spend years agonizing over using a device that simply doesn't work properly (and was never meant to), you're missing the fun of a great arcade racer. Stop trying to turn it into something it isn't and just enjoy it for what it is.


Your posts are filled with so much misinformation, its not even remotely funny. Yes, its true. Force feedback and wheel support in previous forza titles left a lot to be desired. It was a lack lustre experience all the way. FM4 was ok FFB wise, FM5 saw no improvements. FM6 saw the addition of a really strong damping effect, as well as pneumatic force drop off as soon as traction was lost on the front wheels. With only 'Force Feedback Scale' as the adjustable option, it made the experience on a wheel usable, but awful. Especially when it came to drifting.

FM7 made some dramatic changes, with plenty of different options to adjust. These options, if set appropriately, gave proper aligning forces for the first time. Not to mention the ability to FINALLY turn off that god awful damping effect, and lower the pneumatic force effects. The force feedback felt a lot nicer, but only in regards to aligning forces and weight. Road feel was nonexistent, so left the wheel feeling lifeless. Still, the experience was far superior to FM6 (and every Forza title before it). But they are still missing out automatic wheel rotation soft locking, even with the most recent FFB update FM7 received just before Christmas.

Now we have FH4, and from day one; the FFB has been very good. Not to mention finally having road feel in there. Aligning Forces also seem stronger than the release version FFB of FM7 as well. Its a far better experience overall.

But this is where the issues enter. The names for the FFB adjustment sliders are confusing. This was fixed in FM7 with the recent FFB update, and the new naming convention makes a lot of sense. FH4 still uses the older naming scheme, and it doesn't fit with ANY other racing game. Not to mention a lot of people call for turning off Centre Spring, which I have found in FM7 and FH4 to be a massive mistake.

If you want you wheel to have good aligning forces, which you will need to countersteer effectively. Then you need to have settings that allow that to happen. This, I have to assume, is where people are going wrong. Along with having copious amounts of damping set, with barely any centre spring. But I cant be certain, as very few people will do as I requested; and post up their current settings. But it fits with not being able to anticipate or control the cars once traction is lost.

If you are playing on the Xbox one with either a Logitech or Thrustmaster wheel, then you will need to set 'Force Feedback Scale' to personal taste. I have my G920 set to 75% when I use it along side the Xbox one version of FH4. If you are playing on the PC with a Thrustmaster device, or use a fanatec wheel on either the Xbox or the PC. I highly suggest setting the in game 'Force Feedback Scale' to 100%, and adjusting the 'master gain' on your wheel hardware itself. Such as in the Thrustmaster driver software, or on the fanatec wheel itself. My T300 is set to 60% Master Gain in the driver software, as an example. But in game I have it set to 100%.

Centre spring, as mentioned above. A lot of people turn this off. DONT. This is a dynamic force, which will aid in self aligning while the car is in motion. This is a necessary effect. I have this set on 100 currently, for my T300 and my G920.

Wheel Damper, I also see quite a few people having quite a lot of damping on. This is actually bad, as it adds artificial weight; and saturates the wheel. This reduces the effectiveness of all the other force feedback effects, as well as severely hampering self aligning forces. On a Logitech based wheel, you want this turned to 0%. I also use 0% on my T300. The more powerful wheel you have, the more chance there is you will need some wheel damping; but we are talk small amounts only. Even in that circumstance.

If you want to have good mechanical trail feel, then you need FFB understeer set high. I run this at 100 on both my T300RS, and my G920 wheel. This effect is essential for aligning forces!!!!

Minimum Force is a very confusing option. But it pertains to the pneumatic trail effects. Essentially, tires. If you have this set high, you will get a significant drop off in forces. From what I have experienced in game, this also increases/decreases the weight of the wheel while cornering. I have this set at 20% for my T300, and 30% for my G920.

My wheel rotation, I change here an there. It all depends on what I am driving. I tend to change this more in FM7 than I do in FH4. For the most part, I run full 1080° on my T300RS in FH4. Even while drifting, or doing rally races. 900° for my G920.

FH4 wheel cam footage I just recorded for the sake of this thread. I used a fully stock Shelby GT350, and a drift tuned Mustang. Settings as described above, and wheel rotation at 1080°. You can see in the footage while I am drifting, that the wheels self aligning forces are very good, and very fast - https://youtu.be/RtEpF0y5xUA

People still need to also check their TV's, and make sure any 'Gaming Modes' are turned on. Input lag is a very real issue when it comes to playing games on an LCD/LED/OLED tv set. The input lag that some TV's produce, can make it seem like the wheel isnt responding to what is happening on the screen. It makes it impossible to read the force feedback. The information you receive on the wheel is fine, but what you see on the TV itself is delayed. This causes in massive disconnect, and destroys any hope of a nice experience. Racing games, and FPS games, which are very fast paced; and rely on fast reaction times. Are the main places input lag will be noticed.

Something else to keep in mind. The FFB will feel different in both FM7 and FH4, depending on what car you are driving. Or how that car is set in its tuning. It is not necessarily a good idea to go back into the FFB settings and change everything, as sometimes the different feel between cars/tunes; is correct. Just take out a front engine, rear wheel drive car. Then take out a mid engine rear wheel drive car right after it. Notice the lighter steering feels on the latter engine/drive layout. This is showing the lack of engine weight over the front wheel axle, which is an expected result of the engine layout change.


I'm not providing "information", I'm just stating what these games are supposed to be. They aren't sims and will never handle great with a wheel. You may make them work satisfactory,
but they'll never have a real driving feel. I have to assume you don't play any real sims or you'd totally agree with me about how a wheel feels and handles with Forza titles. Like I said before, all you have to do is look at the fact nobody in the actual Forza 7 comps even uses a wheel and that's really all the proof needed.



Assetto Corsa with Oculus rift -

https://youtu.be/-KDS4B-7VoA

https://youtu.be/SP91MWm6MIU

Dirt Rally -

https://youtu.be/V0XHAZowhIc

Ive also played race room racing experience, own Pcars 1 and 2. I have raced on iRacing, I have Assetto Corsa Competizione. I have been playing racing games since 1989, I have played both arcade and simulation racing games. And I have been using force feedback racing wheels since 2000. I dont change how I drive cars in Forza and Assetto, or other sims. FH4 is absolutely more on the arcade side of the fence, thats a given; just by the nature of Horizon. FM7, it isnt so cut and dry. As T10's objective, is to simulate to the best of their abilities how real world cars react and drive. Sure, its not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. But you point me to any racing title that is perfect in the physics department?

Fact is, you cant. They all have flaws, even iRacing and Assetto.

People lose their objectivity, and use the most arbitrary reasons to bash one game over the other. Forza is far closer than people give it credit for in the physics department, far closer than a lot of people care to admit. Its downfall has always been the force feedback, but thats finally beginning to change. If you take a step back, and really look at it, you might see some of what I am saying. Though if you want a head start, JSR_Devon has a wonderful video on his youtube channel; where one of his team mates take the number 1 spot on the green hell using a Logitech G920 wheel in FM7. The lap was done without any force feedback turned on. It very clearly shows the supposed disparity between controller times and wheel times, isnt there. Something I have been telling people isnt true since FM4, and I have always maintained that a number 1 driver that is versed in a control pad and a wheel; will remain a number 1 driver. No matter what device they use at any given time. It all comes down to the skill level of the individual, and the time and effort they have put in to learn and improve with either/both devices.

https://youtu.be/JTU3TeAi-1c

The fact a racing wheel isnt use in any of the competitions, is here nor there. That, to be quite honest. Has absolutely nothing to do with the current level of wheel support, and more to do with accessibility. Everyone who has an Xbox, as a control pad. FM7 is the first full Forza on PC, control pad will still be the main controller type. And the same is true of FH4. FM7 and FH4, do not have the easiest FFB to setup either. One of the reasons I have put in so much effort finding FFB settings for both FM7 and FH4, is so I can help people get them working properly. Super Curbo is a perfect example that when people listen, things can actually improve in their gameplay. People like you though, CW. As well as Great Flea and MadBuggy, are doing far more to hamper progress, than you are at helping it. Instead of acknowledging T10 and Playground have made massive strides in wheel and force feedback support in FM7 and FH4, are more bothered about bashing, and ignoring or trying to destroy any post that not only explains other wise; but backs it up with actual in game footage, along side wheel cam footage.

You accused me of being a troll just a few posts ago CW. I think you seriously need to take a look at your own posts.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#327 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2019 6:53:06 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Ialyrn Go to Quoted Post

Dirt Rally is so garbage, it's offensive to the word garbage to associate the two.

Originally Posted by: Ialyrn Go to Quoted Post
FH4 is absolutely more on the arcade side of the fence, thats a given; just by the nature of Horizon.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by: Ialyrn Go to Quoted Post
FM7, it isnt so cut and dry. As T10's objective, is to simulate to the best of their abilities how real world cars react and drive. Sure, its not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. But you point me to any racing title that is perfect in the physics department?

Dirt Rally shows why "the car's reactions" are so subjective, you can make a game play "passably" in certain conditions and completely fail to resemble reality in others, as a result of chasing certain "objective" vehicle behaviors. I have no respect for a program that claims to be a simulator of any sort, and does so by chasing vehicle dynamics from the outside in. It's the most disgustingly superficial approach possible.

Originally Posted by: Ialyrn Go to Quoted Post
Fact is, you cant. They all have flaws, even iRacing and Assetto.

They do. Tires are notoriously difficult to simulate. That's the root of most problems any sim has ever faced. And force-based vs geometric roll centers.

Originally Posted by: Ialyrn Go to Quoted Post
People lose their objectivity, and use the most arbitrary reasons to bash one game over the other. Forza is far closer than people give it credit for in the physics department, far closer than a lot of people care to admit. Its downfall has always been the force feedback, but thats finally beginning to change.

I'd argue it has more downfalls than that, which the FFB might be instrumental in bringing to light.

Originally Posted by: Ialyrn Go to Quoted Post
If you take a step back, and really look at it, you might see some of what I am saying. Though if you want a head start, JSR_Devon has a wonderful video on his youtube channel; where one of his team mates take the number 1 spot on the green hell using a Logitech G920 wheel in FM7. The lap was done without any force feedback turned on. It very clearly shows the supposed disparity between controller times and wheel times, isnt there. Something I have been telling people isnt true since FM4, and I have always maintained that a number 1 driver that is versed in a control pad and a wheel; will remain a number 1 driver. No matter what device they use at any given time. It all comes down to the skill level of the individual, and the time and effort they have put in to learn and improve with either/both devices.

Without contesting your argument, I'd like to see the same comparison with a slalom race. The wheel should be capable of doing better. If it's not, the physics are at fault. Wheels can turn faster and more accurately than controller steering, there is no question. It's my understanding Forza's controller steering shoots itself in the foot by being so slow, and they "fix" it with psuedophysical forces.

Originally Posted by: Ialyrn Go to Quoted Post
The fact a racing wheel isnt use in any of the competitions, is here nor there. That, to be quite honest. Has absolutely nothing to do with the current level of wheel support, and more to do with accessibility. Everyone who has an Xbox, as a control pad. FM7 is the first full Forza on PC, control pad will still be the main controller type.

I feel it's a bit of both. Pad racing is inherently more accessible by being cheaper (free for Xbox users), less set-up time (clamping my wheel to my desk and plugging everything in; building/buying a sim rig if you're on Xbox), and 13 generations of developing pad steering algorithm vs 2 generations of serious effort towards FFB support.

Originally Posted by: Ialyrn Go to Quoted Post
And the same is true of FH4. FM7 and FH4, do not have the easiest FFB to setup either. One of the reasons I have put in so much effort finding FFB settings for both FM7 and FH4, is so I can help people get them working properly. Super Curbo is a perfect example that when people listen, things can actually improve in their gameplay.

I feel you're understating the importance of tuning in the playability equation. We're ultimately playing with a system of forces that total vehicle dynamics in practice. The wheel and FFB are merely the window in and out of that system.

Originally Posted by: Ialyrn Go to Quoted Post
People like you though, CW. As well as Great Flea and MadBuggy, are doing far more to hamper progress, than you are at helping it. Instead of acknowledging T10 and Playground have made massive strides in wheel and force feedback support in FM7 and FH4, are more bothered about bashing, and ignoring or trying to destroy any post that not only explains other wise; but backs it up with actual in game footage, along side wheel cam footage.

For every instance of proof of success I can show you an instance of proof of failure. This goes back to what I said about Dirt Rally, and subjective correlations between vehicle behavior and reality. Skipping over the totality of friction and overall vehicle dynamics to serve specific "reactions" destroys the integrity of the simulation and cripples the experience for absolutely everyone. Unless, of course, the goal is simply to make an arcade racing game, that noone should need respect as a simulation. I would like to believe I am on your side.

Horizon is hypercar rallycross. It's inhumanly intense. The tires do a great job of making it possible, until they leave the road, which happens often. Until the FFB is equally catered towards Horizon's extreme nature, it won't play well. This is my opinion as a 1080 degree wheel user.

FM7 is reasonable on a wheel. My understanding of the physics and tuning to use them to maximum effect is still only ~50-75% of what it could be. The recent FFB update to FM7 seems to be universally accepted as a leap forwards, once the drivers and tunes adapt to it. This thread isn't about FM7.

Edited by user Monday, January 21, 2019 7:41:11 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#328 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2019 8:07:33 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Ialyrn Go to Quoted Post
JSR_Devon has a wonderful video on his youtube channel; where one of his team mates take the number 1 spot on the green hell using a Logitech G920 wheel in FM7. The lap was done without any force feedback turned on. It very clearly shows the supposed disparity between controller times and wheel times, isnt there.=

.........

People like you though, CW. As well as Great Flea and MadBuggy, are doing far more to hamper progress, than you are at helping it.


And as many people have already told you in this thread, it doesn't matter - I'm more than fast enough to take records with a wheel, I already have taken number one spots - they'll have been retaken by now with faster cars and people putting time into them - but that's because I can't bothered to play with this frustrating handling issue.
I can drive just as fast with a wheel as anybody, the problem is it takes far, far more skill to drive at that level because you can't put a single foot wrong or the tiniest mistake compared to a controller.
The fact is you point out one guy doing well with a wheel as proof without actually thinking about it at all - a wheel has far, far better resolution than a controller ever will - you shouldn't be pointing out one guy at the top beating controller players as being great - THAT SHOULD BE THE NORM - a controller player up against the wheels should be the surprise, not vice versa!
ttt
We've all already said the handling and FFB is pretty good when there's no hint of a slide, etc, going on (well, apart from sim steering where weight transfer on a direction change is massively overblown, but that's probably the damper model) - the problem is that the minute you get tapped, have to drive through obsticles off road, or the rear end slides a little, the physics on the wheel feel completely different from the controller, to the point where it feels like you have far too much weight at the rear of the car making it very, very difficult to catch or hold - which is no issue at all on a control pad.

And the people on here are enthusiasts - I've got three friends that never really play racing games that picked it up because of all they hype and bought g920's to play it with all together - and none of them play it any more, they absolutely hate it on a wheel and will only play the odd occasion with a keyboard and controller - and these are people playing with assists on and they STILL have trouble. How many people that are new to the franchise have had the same experience, also don't post on here because they think that's just the way it supposed to be and that they're just terrible at driving, and have just put it down and won't buy another?
It's a problem, it's a big problem, and it's driving people away from the franchise, and the devs are saying nothing about whether they're even looking at it.


The only person not helping in this thread is yourself going around insulting other peoples views, claiming there's no issue (in a 13 page thread of people saying there's an issue, when there's a new wheel thread with other people having problems popping up almost every day since the start) - because that stops it getting investigated properly.

At the end of the day it's very simple, FFB doesn't matter, as you proved at the top, it's enjoyable to have on but anyone can go fast without it too, so praising FFB improvents is irrelevent in a thread about car control issues, why should we be sat here 'singing the praises to Turn 10 for improving FFB over the previous games' - when it's completely irrelevant to the problem?
The fact remains that even in many more hardcore, far less arcady sim games this behaviour is not present, they are far, far more benign - that should not be a thing for a game mainly just designed for fun in cars vs PC2, rFactor, iRacing, etc.

It's very, very easy to spot there's a glaring issue, all you need to do is plug a wheel in and slide around on dirt with a RWD car and then restart with a controller plugged in instead and do the same. There's a very obvious difference in handling. Nobody cares about the difference in FFB between wheels or controller, that's a nicety to have, it doesn't impact how you're actually playing the game, the handling difference does, massively.

Edited by user Tuesday, January 22, 2019 8:13:51 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#329 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:13:05 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MadBuggyOfDoom Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Ialyrn Go to Quoted Post
JSR_Devon has a wonderful video on his youtube channel; where one of his team mates take the number 1 spot on the green hell using a Logitech G920 wheel in FM7. The lap was done without any force feedback turned on. It very clearly shows the supposed disparity between controller times and wheel times, isnt there.=

.........

People like you though, CW. As well as Great Flea and MadBuggy, are doing far more to hamper progress, than you are at helping it.


And as many people have already told you in this thread, it doesn't matter - I'm more than fast enough to take records with a wheel, I already have taken number one spots - they'll have been retaken by now with faster cars and people putting time into them - but that's because I can't bothered to play with this frustrating handling issue.
I can drive just as fast with a wheel as anybody, the problem is it takes far, far more skill to drive at that level because you can't put a single foot wrong or the tiniest mistake compared to a controller.
The fact is you point out one guy doing well with a wheel as proof without actually thinking about it at all - a wheel has far, far better resolution than a controller ever will - you shouldn't be pointing out one guy at the top beating controller players as being great - THAT SHOULD BE THE NORM - a controller player up against the wheels should be the surprise, not vice versa!
ttt
We've all already said the handling and FFB is pretty good when there's no hint of a slide, etc, going on (well, apart from sim steering where weight transfer on a direction change is massively overblown, but that's probably the damper model) - the problem is that the minute you get tapped, have to drive through obsticles off road, or the rear end slides a little, the physics on the wheel feel completely different from the controller, to the point where it feels like you have far too much weight at the rear of the car making it very, very difficult to catch or hold - which is no issue at all on a control pad.

And the people on here are enthusiasts - I've got three friends that never really play racing games that picked it up because of all they hype and bought g920's to play it with all together - and none of them play it any more, they absolutely hate it on a wheel and will only play the odd occasion with a keyboard and controller - and these are people playing with assists on and they STILL have trouble. How many people that are new to the franchise have had the same experience, also don't post on here because they think that's just the way it supposed to be and that they're just terrible at driving, and have just put it down and won't buy another?
It's a problem, it's a big problem, and it's driving people away from the franchise, and the devs are saying nothing about whether they're even looking at it.


The only person not helping in this thread is yourself going around insulting other peoples views, claiming there's no issue (in a 13 page thread of people saying there's an issue, when there's a new wheel thread with other people having problems popping up almost every day since the start) - because that stops it getting investigated properly.

At the end of the day it's very simple, FFB doesn't matter, as you proved at the top, it's enjoyable to have on but anyone can go fast without it too, so praising FFB improvents is irrelevent in a thread about car control issues, why should we be sat here 'singing the praises to Turn 10 for improving FFB over the previous games' - when it's completely irrelevant to the problem?
The fact remains that even in many more hardcore, far less arcady sim games this behaviour is not present, they are far, far more benign - that should not be a thing for a game mainly just designed for fun in cars vs PC2, rFactor, iRacing, etc.

It's very, very easy to spot there's a glaring issue, all you need to do is plug a wheel in and slide around on dirt with a RWD car and then restart with a controller plugged in instead and do the same. There's a very obvious difference in handling. Nobody cares about the difference in FFB between wheels or controller, that's a nicety to have, it doesn't impact how you're actually playing the game, the handling difference does, massively.


No matter the racing game, if you have never played one with a racing wheel; its going to be more difficult than using a controller is. If you have never played forza with a control pad or a wheel, you are going to find it difficult at first to play the game with either, but the game pad will always be the easiest one to learn. There is just far less physical effort required to use it. There is a learning curve with either device, the one for the wheel is much bigger. That isnt racing game dependant, that is just because of the nature of the device itself.

Someone has tried the advice I posted up; and from their own post -

Originally Posted by: Super Curbo Go to Quoted Post
I’ve been lurking on this board since October 7th, when I picked up the game and (like so many others) got frustrated with the see-saw motion of the cars. My original pick after the tutorial section was the Audi, and I found it horrible to drive. I followed different peoples advice and could never find the sweet spot.

Finally, after following Ialyrn’s advice above, I’m having FUN driving this game and winning races, and it doesn’t even feel cheap when you lose control anymore (tossing a TVR through a bush at 90mph is SUPPOSED to end in disaster).

The least you can do is reset everything to default, fix the brake deadzone (thanks Logitech) and try the settings in the post above. For me, this has been a night and day change to the game. Thanks Ialyrn!!


The problems people face in Forza with racing wheels, is all down to the poor force feedback in previous versions of the game; and how much more difficult it is to set the now improved FFB in FH4 and FM7. Along side sometimes just being completely green to the physical use of a racing wheel in any racing game. A point you just very clearly showed, when you stated that -

Quote:
I've got three friends that never really play racing games that picked it up because of all they hype and bought g920's to play it with all together - and none of them play it any more, they absolutely hate it on a wheel and will only play the odd occasion with a keyboard and controller - and these are people playing with assists on and they STILL have trouble. How many people that are new to the franchise have had the same experience, also don't post on here because they think that's just the way it supposed to be and that they're just terrible at driving, and have just put it down and won't buy


At this point, there are 3 people in this thread that are just being difficult for the sake of it. I have provided video footage that I recorded using one of my racing wheels in 2 different cars. A stock Shelby GT350, on tarmac and on dirt; and not having a single issue controlling it. Even taking multiple jumps with it. With ABS/TCS/STM turned off. And I drift turned mustang. If the wheel wasn't working properly, I wouldn't have been able to do either of those two things. Not to mention youtube is littered with people using racing wheels all day long with Forza Horizon 4, and not having a single issue.

If there is a genuine problem people are having, they either have poor setups, bad settings, or have not made sure their wheels firmware is fully up to date. The G920 had compatibility issues originally with both Xbox and the PC, Logitech released a firmware update to fix that a while ago. It is not out the realm of possibility; that some of the people posting in here. Have a G920 that does not have that firmware applied to it. My G920 is fully up to date, as is my T300RS. I have no problems with FH4 on a wheel at all. No issues controlling cars on tarmac, dirt, gravel, snow, or ice. And I am far from the only one with this experience. Then there is, as mentioned above, the experience aspect. In the case of your three friends, that is barely any experience with racing games, and zero experience using a racing wheel with them.

All I have had in this thread. Is being told I either am playing with training wheels on, get told I am obviously a slow driver and not very good. Or only play Forza, and have never touched a "real" simulation based racing title. And that I am a troll. Constantly getting discredited, even though I have been a member on these forums since 2006; and have ALWAYS put my self forward to help others with their issues and to improve at the game itself. A quick look at my posting history, and anyone can see that, plain as day. I have even taken time out to record a video, to PROVE that I am not pulling anyone's legs. At a time I am mourning the loss of a close family member. So even at a very difficult time in my life, I am still here trying to help others. And made a post that includes my settings for 2 different wheels, and explained how each of the sliders works for which aspects of the force feedback. Yet I am the troll, apparently.......

I mean obviously I cant be an actual racing game enthusiast, can I? Its not like I have 3 different racing wheels to hand (because spares are always handy to have), with an actual cockpit. An Oculus rift, that I purchased for the main purpose of using with racing games. Have a gaming PC capable of running said Oculus Rift, and have played damn near every arcade and simulation based racing game to hit the market since 1989. Or have put in countless hours and time and effort to not only get good at playing them, but to also take time out to help other people as well. I am very clearly just someone who makes things up, and obviously has no idea what I am talking about at all.



This is just my steam list for racing games, not even taking into account what I have in CD/DVD-Rom, Xbox disks, PlayStation, Origin/EA, and even cassette tape, cartridges, and floppy disk for classic systems -


Also, kindly show where I have insulted anyone in this thread?

Seriously, the last few responses to me have been completely ridiculous.

Edited by user Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:23:05 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#330 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:51:52 AM(UTC)
Lalryn, I'm sorry. We all have our own ideas of how physics work and the correct way to interact with them. I haven't found a simulator that agrees with my expectations, and could attack any sim/game for not being made just for me. You're right, I have made an *** of myself. I want you to know it's not personal.

I watched the first 5 minutes of your video with the GT350. I saw you land 3 different jumps, casually perform numerous subtle drifts, including on dirt; generally, have an easygoing time. I believe you, it's possible.

Edited by user Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:56:09 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#331 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2019 10:21:14 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: GreatFlea815883 Go to Quoted Post
Lalryn, I'm sorry. We all have our own ideas of how physics work and the correct way to interact with them. I haven't found a simulator that agrees with my expectations, and could attack any sim/game for not being made just for me. You're right, I have made an *** of myself. I want you to know it's not personal.

I watched the first 5 minutes of your video with the GT350. I saw you land 3 different jumps, casually perform numerous subtle drifts, including on dirt; generally, have an easygoing time. I believe you, it's possible.


Thats very big of you, and I appreciate the response. Thank you.

You are right, everyone has different things they look for in physics and force feedback. I tend to take a very objective view that no game is perfect in either of those departments, and learn how the individual titles do work. To better help myself, and then so I can help others. To either fix their issues, if possible. Through settings and/or through practice. Or to help them rule out their setup/settings as the culprit, so that then there can be no doubt that the game is at fault. The biggest thing to keep in mind, and I cant stress this enough. Is that T10 and Playground can not investigate anything, unless all other avenues on the user side have been looked at (including input lap on an LCD/LED/OLED TV), settings in game/on wheel. Or that device drivers and firmware are up to date. With all that information provided in a clear and concise way, along with a proper description on what is actually happening. Its one of the main reasons I ask others to post up their settings. The other reason, is so that I can provide more customised advice. Because each persons situation, even within this thread. Is unique to them. And there can be a number of factors that are creating their issue.

Rank: Racing Permit
#332 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2019 10:41:35 AM(UTC)
All of my friends have wheels with updated firmware, all are using low latency gaming monitors (and as someone else said, this would not make any difference as the controller would feel the same in that case), all have up to date software.
T10 will never address it with info because they will never respond to tickets. Every single one of us put a ticket in for this, explained we've changed settings to no avail, and all we got was 'we'll forward it to the devs' about 3 months ago, and then heard nothing since, no requests for where, when, why, what we tried, nothing. Na da.

It's the exact same with the bug in adventure where the rental car gets bugged - even with hours of video evidence on exactly what's happening, how to reproduce it....nothing. Not even a 'sorry but it's not a priority at the minute' - just complete radio silence after the first response.

So yes, I think we're well within our rights over 3 months after raising the issue to keep posting saying there is a problem, whether it's a just a bug, settings or issue with the input layers - because so far nobody at Turn 10 seems to give a damn about it.
You say yours is fine - well lucky you, but you also say steering spring should be on for dynamics and you've tried that on the G920 - the vast majority of people on here with a G920 will tell you the centre spring makes almost no difference in the game and only really works in the menus. And it's just a static force, not dynamic at all. So either you have a magic G920, or for many people, there's a serious bug somewhere.

Even without this problem there are obviously problems with the throttle mapping that you can confirm by watching the telemetry for 10 seconds - it's not mapped to power limits, but rather available power and some other modifier altering it, which doesn't help things.

Edited by user Tuesday, January 22, 2019 10:45:56 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#333 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2019 10:54:42 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MadBuggyOfDoom Go to Quoted Post
All of my friends have wheels with updated firmware, all are using low latency gaming monitors (and as someone else said, this would not make any difference as the controller would feel the same in that case), all have up to date software.
T10 will never address it with info because they will never respond to tickets. Every single one of us put a ticket in for this, explained we've changed settings to no avail, and all we got was 'we'll forward it to the devs' about 3 months ago, and then heard nothing since, no requests for where, when, why, what we tried, nothing. Na da.

It's the exact same with the bug in adventure where the rental car gets bugged - even with hours of video evidence on exactly what's happening, how to reproduce it....nothing. Not even a 'sorry but it's not a priority at the minute' - just complete radio silence after the first response.

So yes, I think we're well within our rights over 3 months after raising the issue to keep posting saying there is a problem, whether it's a just a bug, settings or issue with the input layers - because so far nobody at Turn 10 seems to give a damn about it.
You say yours is fine - well lucky you, but you also say steering spring should be on for dynamics and you've tried that on the G920 - the vast majority of people on here with a G920 will tell you the centre spring makes almost no difference in the game and only really works in the menus. And it's just a static force, not dynamic at all. So either you have a magic G920, or for many people, there's a serious bug somewhere.


Even without this problem there are obviously problems with the throttle mapping that you can confirm by watching the telemetry for 10 seconds - it's not mapped to power limits, but rather available power and some other modifier altering it, which doesn't help things.


Le sigh

To prove I have a G920, just to make sure there is no doubt on that.



https://youtu.be/x2jUJ3nVlOs

Quote:
CENTER SPRING SCALE
This sets the Dynamic Centering Force of your steering wheel. Larger values provide a stronger centering force while lower values provide a lighter centering force. Lowering this value too much may cause steering oscillation. Too high a value reduces the dynamic align torque you feel from the car’s tires.

Essentially, the spring is the force pulling the steering wheel toward center; that is to say gravity through caster, KPI and scrub radius (the distance in front view between a car’s king pin axis and the center of the contact patch of the wheel, where both would theoretically touch the road). This force is overcome at speed through pneumatic and mechanical trail, the causes of align torque (the torque that a tire creates as it rolls along, which tends to steer it). The faster you go, the less center spring force you should feel, and the more you feel from the tires steering themselves.

TIP: We recommend that you NOT turn Center Spring Scale up significantly - too high and this effectively cancels dynamic FFB - the only force you feel is your wheel trying to center itself, rather than the dynamic align torque at from the car’s wheels. We recommend you leave it alone or turn it down.


https://support.forzamot...-Wheel-Setup-and-Tuning

My testing on a G920, on both the Xbox and the PC versions of FH4, and T10's own description in regards to centre spring on their own support website; match perfectly.

Default for centre spring is '100'. I have it set at 100 for both my wheels.

Edited by user Tuesday, January 22, 2019 10:59:39 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#334 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2019 11:03:16 AM(UTC)
Apart from that description is completely different from what has been given for a few months with the centre spring - which used to match what it still says in the game, that's it's a centring spring that does NOT scale with FFB - so which description is correct, the new one, or the old one?
And have they actually changed it, or has someone just written a different description for the wheel guide?

Because I just tested it again with the latest FFB settings in case they updated it, and it still does almost nothing in game and mainly just affects centring in menus. And it's a static force. And you still get self centring with it turned completely off.

Edited by user Tuesday, January 22, 2019 11:05:39 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#335 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2019 11:16:45 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MadBuggyOfDoom Go to Quoted Post
Apart from that description is completely different from what has been given for a few months with the centre spring - which used to match what it still says in the game, that's it's a centring spring that does NOT scale with FFB - so which description is correct, the new one, or the old one?
And have they actually changed it, or has someone just written a different description for the wheel guide?

Because I just tested it again with the latest FFB settings in case they updated it, and it still does almost nothing in game and mainly just affects centring in menus. And it's a static force. And you still get self centring with it turned completely off.


When you enter the menu, it will centre the wheel. Thats actually annoying, and not something I personally like; in any racing title. Its annoying if you have to pause for any reason. But when it comes to driving in game, the effect is absolutely dynamic. For a while I was using 0 centre spring on both wheels. I changed it in December after the FM7 ffb update, as centre spring changed in that game with that update. So I started experimenting with it in FM7. I wondered if it worked the same in FH4 as well, as I felt something was missing in Horizon with the self aligning. I set it to 100, and I noticed an immediate difference to self aligning while in motion. While the car is stationary, I can turn to full lock; and the wheel will stay there till I begin to move. Then it aligns to the centre once I am moving. That is how it should work. It works along side the mechanical and pneumatic trails in the game. In FH4, thats is FFB understeer (mechanical trail), and FFB minimum (pneumatic trail). Realistically, T0 and Playground need to implement the same update from FM7 into FH4, as it will do a lot to remove some confusion about settings; and bring both games into parity with one another on wheel settings.

At this point, the in game description must be wrong. Because all the testing I have done, fits with what T10 state on their support website about wheels and FH4.

We have obviously gotten off on the wrong foot, and I am more than willing to leave that in the past. All I want to do, is help people figure out what is going on; make sure absolutely everything else is ruled out as a possibility. Help with trying new settings, and give driving advice. And hopefully help others enjoy the game as I am on a wheel. Its absolutely the game devs responsibility, but I also know from personal experience. It sometimes is just a matter of learning a new device, or a new game. Other times, its just a bad game. I think we can all agree how much of a headache Pcars 1 is to setup on a wheel, as an example. Tuning force feedback in Forza, is also a headache. The descriptions in game make minimal sense, they do not correlate to how almost all other devs of racing games handle things. And there is a lack of parity between FM7 and FH4. It makes things harder than they need to be.

Edited by user Tuesday, January 22, 2019 11:23:29 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#336 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2019 11:20:45 AM(UTC)
And yet with my G920 it will align to centre when stationary no matter what the settings are, and centering spring force gives a massive change in the force to centre the wheel in a menu, yet makes almost no difference at all in game - there's maybe a touch spring centring at low speed and when stationary even going from 0 to 200, and that's all.

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#337 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2019 11:26:31 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MadBuggyOfDoom Go to Quoted Post
And yet with my G920 it will align to centre when stationary no matter what the settings are, and centering spring force gives a massive change in the force to centre the wheel in a menu, yet makes almost no difference at all in game - there's maybe a touch spring centring at low speed and when stationary even going from 0 to 200, and that's all.



Thats odd, because it shouldn't be doing that. Are you using the Xbox console, or a windows PC?

I only ask, as some USB headers; especially USB 3.0. Can sometimes screw with FFB wheels. Sometimes, some issues can be solved simple by using a USB 2.0 port. As daft as that sounds. I had that issue on my old computer system, which was a very old AMD FX based system. My G920 wouldnt work correctly on a USB 3.0 port, but was perfect in a USB 2.0 port.


Rank: Racing Permit
#338 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2019 11:37:54 AM(UTC)
PC, happens no matter what USB port it's plugged into. I just asked on of my friends to check it too as he has a completely different system (threadripper vs my i5) - his does the same.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#339 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2019 12:23:52 PM(UTC)
I only purchased my wheel back end of December 2018 from Currys.
Is it safe to assume this will have the most up to date driver ?
Rank: Racing Permit
#340 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2019 1:21:24 PM(UTC)
It should be, same time I got mine from same place, but you can check in the logitech software.

The firmware hasn't been updated for about 3 years for a G920 though.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#341 Posted : Tuesday, January 22, 2019 2:16:41 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MadBuggyOfDoom Go to Quoted Post
And yet with my G920 it will align to centre when stationary no matter what the settings are, and centering spring force gives a massive change in the force to centre the wheel in a menu, yet makes almost no difference at all in game - there's maybe a touch spring centring at low speed and when stationary even going from 0 to 200, and that's all.



Ok. So to double check my testing, I hooked up my G920 and loaded FH4 on my Xbox one. On there, the force feedback works as I stated it does in my previous postings. Only thing I had to change in the settings, was the Force Feedback Scale; as I mentioned in my post in regards to the settings. On top of this, I tested the centring effect on the wheel while at a stand still by turning full lock and letting go. The wheel stayed where I left it, as you can see in this video -

https://youtu.be/xfO3lpqPyL8

I also did the same run on Fortune Island, as I did previously with my T300RS -

https://youtu.be/2PPnowtdGng

As you can see, the effects are as I described all along............. But!!!!

In the interest of being thorough, because now I have information on whats happening and where, it just makes sense to double check everything. I plugged the G920 into my PC and loaded up FH4 on there. Now this is where things get interesting, and by interesting. I mean very good for you. There is something wrong, least now there is anyway. For some reason, you are right, the wheel just wants to self centre. It doesn't matter where the centring spring slider is set either, at 0 or at 200, it will always return to centre. On top of this, the Force feedback itself is off as well. Its clunky, and feels dampened and slow; even with damping turned off. As it was in my Xbox one test with the G920, and as it was on my T300RS. I closed the Logitech software, just to make sure it wasn't overriding the wheel; but the G920 on the PC with Horizon 4. Still acted the same.

Because you told me what is happening for you, I was able to better test this; and now we have a point of failure for the G920 with the PC version of Horizon 4. And it is absolutely something that T10/Playground and their support team, needs to investigate. Thank you for finally telling me what I needed to know, because now I can back you up; instead of us bickering at each other. I really hope someone from the support team investigates this issue for you. It is out of the scope of what settings can do, unfortunately. Still, I am pointing T10 support and Chris Esaki on Twitter to this thread (and this post). I hope they check it out.

If possible, I would highly recommend people with a G920 wheel; use it on the Xbox one console itself. The wheel works flawlessly on there. Whatever is happening on the PC version of Horizon 4 with the G920, it definitely needs looking into.

Hopefully this will help - https://twitter.com/ialy...atus/1087837090199621634

Edited by user Tuesday, January 22, 2019 2:21:30 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
#342 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2019 9:19:46 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MadBuggyOfDoom Go to Quoted Post
It should be, same time I got mine from same place, but you can check in the logitech software.

The firmware hasn't been updated for about 3 years for a G920 though.


Thanks for the reply.
I assume that would mean plugging it into a pc rather than the xbox ?
Rank: Racing Permit
#343 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2019 10:33:06 AM(UTC)
It's awful, there's a delay when countersteering and you need shedloads of lock - those little slides you're doing as you get on the power, if I'm using a stock rwd car, I'd have to immediately put half a turn of opposite lock on and stop it otherwise the car will kick out into an unrecoverable slide (and I mean immediately, like fling the wheel with one hand as fast as possible the split-second it starts to scrub the rears).

Do you also have the sensitivity bug on the PC? Where it does nothing for wheel rotation angle (I think the best I can get it to use is about 450 degrees, but even at that there's a horrible numb zone in the FFB for about an inch either side of straight ahead) and it just either slows down the inner 50% of the steering or speeds up the outer 50% with a step change?
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#344 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2019 11:35:27 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MadBuggyOfDoom Go to Quoted Post
It's awful, there's a delay when countersteering and you need shedloads of lock - those little slides you're doing as you get on the power, if I'm using a stock rwd car, I'd have to immediately put half a turn of opposite lock on and stop it otherwise the car will kick out into an unrecoverable slide (and I mean immediately, like fling the wheel with one hand as fast as possible the split-second it starts to scrub the rears).

Do you also have the sensitivity bug on the PC? Where it does nothing for wheel rotation angle (I think the best I can get it to use is about 450 degrees, but even at that there's a horrible numb zone in the FFB for about an inch either side of straight ahead) and it just either slows down the inner 50% of the steering or speeds up the outer 50% with a step change?



The steering sens slider in the PC version of FH4 (and FM7) is awful, and yeh, doesn't really do much. In either game, on either of my wheels. Realistically, and wheels users like myself have been saying this for many years now. They NEED to add automatic wheel rotation soft locking, with an option to bypass it; if so desired. As well as a wheel configuration tool. Much like what Assetto Corsa, iRacing, and even Dirt rally has. That way we can set our wheels to their maximum rotation, and then the game can change it depending on the car. This happens in almost all other simulation based racing titles, and has been the way for a very long time. Forza is still the odd one out in this regard.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#345 Posted : Thursday, January 24, 2019 7:02:46 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: sleightflight Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MadBuggyOfDoom Go to Quoted Post
It should be, same time I got mine from same place, but you can check in the logitech software.

The firmware hasn't been updated for about 3 years for a G920 though.


Thanks for the reply.
I assume that would mean plugging it into a pc rather than the xbox ?


Thats right. All firmware for wheels needs to be updated on the PC. Theoretically you should have the latest firmware the G920 has available, but its always best to check.

edit: Also, is anyone from the support team watching this thread? There is quite a big problem with the G920 on the PC versions of Horizon 4, as described in my previous above. It really needs looking into, as it severely effects the control and play ability of the game. It is slow to respond to feedback, feels heavily dampened even with the slider for damping at 0, and is very clunky. This is only on the PC version mind you, the G920 works flawlessly on the Xbox one version.

Edited by user Thursday, January 24, 2019 7:05:33 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#346 Posted : Saturday, January 26, 2019 12:51:01 PM(UTC)
Hi I received a reply from forza support.

Jan 25,

Could you try these settings:

FFB 60
Spring 0
Damper 0
Min Force 50
Understeer 75
Sensitivity 50
Linearity 50
Inner and outer deadzone 0- 100 on steering, throttle and clutch (if he uses)
Inner - Outer 0 - 70 on brake

Could you start with normal steering before you try simulation steering?


Unfortunately it makes no difference on either the pc or xbox. It's still a diabolical experience.

I've spent many hours now.

Could someone post the definitive settings that you are sure that work? (I've trawled the net and tried various settings from people who say theirs works but makes no difference to me). I've updated the wheel to the latest firmware. I have no problem on any other game, it's just the forza titles. Also what do you think is wrong with the settings above as I got these from official forza support. It's beyond a joke now
Rank: Racing Permit
#347 Posted : Sunday, January 27, 2019 12:25:46 PM(UTC)
Okay, figure this one out, I moved my Forza 4 installation, because I was moving my Forza 7 install to another harddrive in an attempt to solve the not starting problem (it didn't, anyone any ideas for that let me know, can't get it past the splash screen).
Anyway, I launched FH4 after a few hours swearing at FM7 just to check it still worked and suddenly my cars are driving far, far better on the wheel. I can glide about with the rear sliding in the old V8 Holden like it's no problem at all.
However, half my engine sounds are missing. And it's still not quite right, just better than it was.

So now I'm wondering if the problem is some sort of bug during installation.

Edited by user Sunday, January 27, 2019 12:51:20 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
#348 Posted : Monday, January 28, 2019 3:55:55 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MadBuggyOfDoom Go to Quoted Post
Okay, figure this one out, I moved my Forza 4 installation, because I was moving my Forza 7 install to another harddrive in an attempt to solve the not starting problem (it didn't, anyone any ideas for that let me know, can't get it past the splash screen).
Anyway, I launched FH4 after a few hours swearing at FM7 just to check it still worked and suddenly my cars are driving far, far better on the wheel. I can glide about with the rear sliding in the old V8 Holden like it's no problem at all.
However, half my engine sounds are missing. And it's still not quite right, just better than it was.

So now I'm wondering if the problem is some sort of bug during installation.


After more than a month without trying the game with the wheel, Friday I tested again and it was far better for me too! It’s great now, actually! But I’m having engine sound problems as well! Sometimes the engine sound is stuck ina fixed rpm, and other times it’s just gone entirely, but it comes backs after a while. I didn’t move the game at all, so I don’t know if it’s a install problem.
Rank: Racing Permit
#349 Posted : Monday, January 28, 2019 4:03:01 AM(UTC)
It's still a terrible experience for me, what settings are you using? The default settings? If not, please could you share your settings?

I've tried the ones recommended by Forza Support:


FFB 60
Spring 0
Damper 0
Min Force 50
Understeer 75
Sensitivity 50
Linearity 50
Inner and outer deadzone 0- 100 on steering, throttle and clutch (if he uses)
Inner - Outer 0 - 70 on brake

Makes very little difference. Normal Steering is terrible, but simulation steering is even worse if that's possible....


Rank: Driver's License
#350 Posted : Monday, January 28, 2019 9:31:59 AM(UTC)
Well apparently "the G920 works flawlessly on the Xbox one version"

I really beg to differ.
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