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Rank: Forza Staff
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Friday, June 22, 2018 3:10:56 PM(UTC)
FAQ: How are cars added and why are some left out of the game?With each Forza game release there are always repeat assumptions and questions about the car roster. These include: - Manufacturers must be paying to have their cars featured in the game.
- Manufacturers must be forcing Forza to use car B if they want car A.
- Why are there no [manufacturer] cars in the game?
- We paid for previous game cars so why are they left out this time?
- Previous game cars should be easy ports to the new game.
- Why choose older cars over newer cars?
- Why choose this trim level over the highest one?
- Why aren't the developers adding the cars the community wants?
- How are cars chosen for the game?
The developers have actually addressed most of these questions in the past. In short, there are a number of obstacles to the selection of a car, which include manufacturer's agreement, licensing cost, development cost, whether the car is culturally significant, and whether the car makes sense for the game's vision. These are worth a read to understand the context: From FM4, a video on sourcing cars with photos, scanning, and CAD info:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzigpqS_EyUOn building the car roster (FM5):
Quote:“We’ve said there’s three important cars in the game to every player; the first car you ever owned, the car you drive right now, and the car you hope to own someday,” says Turn 10 content director John Wendl, while weaving a Hazard Yellow HSV GTS through The Esses in Forza Motorsport 5’s newly-added Mount Panorama circuit. “And that’s different for everybody, obviously, so we’ve trying to find that right blend for the most people in the world, so that we’re going to have those three cars in there for them.”
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“And there’s always new ones coming up as well, right? We try to make sure that we have the relevant cars in there. And certain cars become stale. You don’t necessarily need every version of the Mustang, for example, in the game. Some of them aren’t that great. Some of them are really iconic and you need to have those in there, but if you’ve got the most current one from Forza 4, from 2011, then it gets replaced with a new one for 2014, do you really still need that 2011 one? We needed it then because it was new, but now maybe it turns out that it wasn’t that well-received and the new one’s all that; we may get rid of that 2011 then because who’s gonna want it? They’re gonna want that ’14. Unless it rose to that status of one of those iconic cars that people love forever; unless it’s frozen in time.” https://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10/28/starting-from-scratch-building-forza-5s-new-car-rosterOn selecting cars for cultural relevance:
Originally Posted by: ManteoMax  "The thing that we're always asking is "Will this car be relevant in ten years?" And not all cars we put in are, but it's the first question we ask. And that also makes concept cars a little bit more of a difficult subject, because some concept cars become famous in their own right. But some concept cars really just hit the cover of a couple magazines and they sort of die on the vine. Especially when the production car comes out and it's similar enough that the concept car really is just no longer relevant. A lot of the builder cars, for SEMA or something like that, these are great cars, but they're made redundant within months. They're really built over the course of nine months, a project car, and then the car is really no longer a big deal. So we don't have any issue with those cars, but that's the first question we have to ask, "How relevant is this going to be?" On advance planning:
Originally Posted by: JONK1969 Originally Posted by: BiaxialWriter0 One of my theories is that they were originally going to make a Porsche expansion that included all the Porsches in FH3 plus some new challenges/races. Then the big leak happened and there was such a backlash about "OMG PORSCHE EXPANSION AGAIN NOOOOO!!!" that they decided to scrap the Porsche expansion and replace it with Hot Wheels. They already had the Porsches in the game so they decided to throw a few into a smaller Porsche Pack and give the rest away for free. I think that explains the Porsche Forzathons. However I could be wrong as the HW expansion could have been in the works since launch and this was all planned. I'd assume it would take a while to make another expansion with a whole new map. Cute theory, but Playground began working on concepts for a Hot Wheels themed expansion in October of last year, while they were still hard at work building Blizzard Mountain. There was no intent to make a Porsche expansion. Porsche car pack, yes. Porsche #Forzathon rewards, yes. Porsche expansion, no. Every car you've seen as #Forzathon rewards was always planned to be delivered that way. Ideally, we would have started rewarding Porsches when the game launched along with other #Forzathon reward cars, but that wasn't possible at the time. Starting with Forza Motorsport 7 this October, and in future Forza titles, you can expect to see Porsches shipping in the base title. This is good news, and all part of a plan that began a long time ago. On manufacturer concerns:
Quote:“We want to make sure the user has the same experience in games as when they drive the vehicle in real life. The worst thing we could do is soup the car up in the game so when they drive it in real life, they don’t find the car up to snuff,” McClary tells us, referencing the limitless depth of precise technical data that Ford will share with licensees to ensure accuracy. https://www.fastcodesign.com/1669990/how-do-real-cars-end-up-in-video-games-and-does-it-help-the-brandsOn car names:
Originally Posted by: JONK1969 Originally Posted by: holden4ever I only have one minor thing I'd like to see fixed and that's to add Phase IV to the end of the XA GTHO like the Phase III at the end of the XY GTHO. It may not have been officially released but to leave off the Phase IV descriptor is doing the car a disservice. We named the car exactly what Ford told us it should be officially called, and went back and forth with them over this and other details because we thought the same thing and wanted to be absolutely sure about it. The "Phase IV" was never officially in its model name, even though Phase IV is how it has come to be known colloquially, that's not what Ford says its called, or was intended to be called. At the end of the day, we don't decide what a car is called, the manufacturer owns that. And most of the time, they know better than we do. We might like to call the 1995 911 GT2 a "993" but that's not the official name of the car - it's the "1995 Porsche 911 GT2" On licensing brands:
Originally Posted by: JONK1969 Originally Posted by: PJTierney
In summary: Car manufacturer tells Turn 10 "we will let you have [desirable car] if you also include [less desirable car] and [alternate version of car] as well."
While negotiating with manufacturers is of course a major factor in determining which cars we can put into our games, this particular theory isn't a scenario we encounter. Ultimately, any car that appears in Forza is a car we at Turn 10 decided to include. For cars that appeared in a previous Forza title but do not in the current game, there are many reasons. I'll summarize a few here: Sometimes it's a choice we made to make room for another car we felt was more important for the title. Game design balance might be a factor. Or disc space: there's only so much room on the physical disc. Project budget or schedule impact another: porting and licensing cars from earlier titles in addition to building and licensing new cars all come with resource cost we have to prioritize. Sometimes we decide that a car has been made redundant by a higher trim version or newer model that otherwise is too similar to an older model to justify both. Sometimes we are unable to license a particular car by a manufacturer, or any car by a manufacturer (or even multiple OEMs represented by the same agency) for one reason or another, even if it was in last year's game. There are quite a few cars in the community top 100 list that fall under this category, but we'll keep trying. There's a reason that no other racing game features so many manufacturers: it's really hard! It takes a dedicated team of professional licensing and legal experts working year-round to maintain strong relationships with OEMs, race teams, and the agencies and lawyers who represent them, as well negotiating ever-changing contract terms, costs, and often changing personal contacts. The desire to have every car that has appeared in Forza to be included in every new Forza is understandable, but to expect that is just not realistic from a game design, licensing, or business perspective. Originally Posted by: JONK1969 Originally Posted by: Breyzipp
(snipped)
I don't think there is any licencing fee for a lot of cars in the game. I remember a video where Dan mentioned that nowadays car companies go towards Microsoft / Turn 10 asking for them to put their newest shining car model in the game. So in the case of the Camaro, I'm sure Chevrolet would much rather see their newest model in the game than the one from a couple year old.
As much as we'd love this to be true like it is for TV and movies, it's just not the case with games yet. Even when a manufacturer asks us to put their shiny new car in the game, it still has to be licensed, which isn't free. It all piles up if you multiply that by dozens of car makers and multiple models for each. But that's the price of doing business. There are benefits for us in that some of these manufacturers will amplify attention for our games or DLC on their website and social media. On updating cars:
Originally Posted by: JONK1969 The Twerkstallion in the game is exactly as it was when we sourced it for Horizon 3. It's understandable, but not realistic, to expect us to update a real world car in game every time its owner updates it in real life (especially that car!) The cars we build are a "snapshot in time."
There are a lot of options we know you'd like us to add, and we'd like to as well: Window decals, paintable brake calipers, multi-piece wheel painting to name a few of the most commonly requested features... But like everything we do, there are considerations that need to be made with priority, schedule, budget, technical risks, licensing issues, download size for updating cars etc. When you have many hundreds of cars, these challenges multiply. Just one new feature applied to even just 100 cars creates the potential for hundreds of new bugs to fix, for example.
We tackle them as we can - widebody kits, rally, and hot rod conversions in FH3 (as well as 30 new wheels). In FH4, we're adding more widebody kits, new off-road conversions, new Track Width options (finally!), Drift Suspension upgrade with extreme steering angle and camber, and Drag tires (as well as an entirely updated suspension simulation that applies to all cars, making them feel much more connected to the road).
We are listening ;) On ports and production costs:
Originally Posted by: JONK1969 Originally Posted by: ManteoMax (snipped)...maybe Jonk or someone else there can comment, but if the ForzaTech engine is evolving, cars have to be redone for both physics and sound and light and function (wipers et al) for the new night and wet features, it's not just a port from one game to the next. That is correct; every car that goes into Forza takes considerable time & effort to build, test, tune, license, etc. Some more than others. Forza 6 shipped with over 450 cars, many of which were updated from Forza 5 or Horizon 2 (a lot of work by a lot of people), many of which were updated from Forza 360 games (considerably more effort in terms of time & resource), and many of which are brand new to the series (a massive effort taking many months per car). None of these cars get magically ported from one game to the next with the press of a button or running of a script. It takes artists, engineers, audio designers, gameplay designers, testers, and licensing specialists a lot of time and effort that most of you don't think about, and really shouldn't have to, when you get behind the virtual wheel and take them for a spin. Track or world expansions are all that effort multiplied by a very big number. All that effort mentioned above sometimes comes with additional cost to the player (buying the full game or buying DLC car packs or expansions), and sometimes no cost (free cars or free expansions). On absent manufacturers:
Volkswagen & FH3 Quote:Unfortunately, we can’t always align our fans’ desires with the interests of every licensor, as is the case with Volkswagen in Forza Horizon 3. As a result, we’re unable to include VW in the game. Naturally, there are tons of VW fans here at Turn 10 and Playground Games and we’re as disappointed to share this update as our fans are to hear it. We hope to be able to restore VW to Forza games in the future. http://www.forzamotorspo...t/en-us/news/wir_8_26_16Toyota & FM7 Quote:Unfortunately it isn’t always possible to align the interests of fans and the interests of our manufacturing partners. As a result, production Toyota vehicles are not represented in Forza 7. We’re as disappointed as you are about this news and, while we hope to bring Toyota production vehicles back to Forza games in the future, it is worth noting that a small number of Toyota race cars will be included in the game. https://www.forzamotorsp...et/en-us/news/wir_8_4_17Quote:Officially, Toyota Motor Corporation has no concrete plans to license its model range to any other games besides Gran Turismo Sport at the moment. https://twitter.com/Toyo...atus/1164177384599429121Porsche & FM7 Quote:Until this year, the only way Turn 10 could get Porsche vehicles into its games was to sublicense the cars through Electronic Arts. Porsche had signed an exclusive licensing deal with the big game publisher for its Need for Speed series in 2000, and while that didn’t preclude Forza from offering Porsche cars, it did prevent the two companies from working on any deeper collaborations.
“It wasn’t really a true partnership,” says John Wendl, Turn 10’s director of content. “Now, because of that partnership, we’re able to do things we couldn’t in the past, and create these kinds of opportunities that just weren’t there before.” https://www.fastcompany....into-microsofts-new-gameOn Wish List threads:
Finally, when it comes to the Car Wish Lists threads, some users seem to think it should be easy to pick from the top, and that the developers are ignoring requests. I happen to know personally that this isn't true from my work tallying the car request counts and relaying that info to the developers. In FM6, were the most requested cars the newest hypercars? No, the most requested production models were the Nissan S14 and BMW i8, along with multiple models from the 1990s and earlier in the top 100 most requested cars. Were the Nissan and i8 requests in the majority? No, they were requested by only 5% of users, which means 95% of the community want something other than what each individual user requests. Nor is it practical to suggest that the thousands of car models that the community requests be available to add as DLC on demand, given that the number of unique models that have ever appeared in the franchise tops out at just over 1,200. What the Car Wishlists show is that the community is incredibly diverse in their interests. It's no wonder then that Forza car rosters are diverse as well, and will never be able to satisfy everyone equally. FH4 Wish List dataEdited by user Wednesday, August 21, 2019 5:47:46 PM(UTC)
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