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#176 Posted : Monday, August 6, 2018 2:19:59 PM(UTC)
Another update will have PENALTIES. Stop spreading false statements.

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#177 Posted : Monday, August 6, 2018 2:22:58 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: leetorts Go to Quoted Post
you guys need to learn how to listen


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vh8Qg7S5FQ

Oh I can listen alright.
The track limits talk started at around 1:13:40. He said at 1:16:34 "in the future we'll be looking at things like removing tire walls or other obstacles" (so THIS will problably come in september/october, that's THE NEXT STEP). Keep listening, it's about track cutting. He doesn't give away anything about race regulations in terms of penalties for collisions between cars, even if they pronounce the words "Forza regulations are still to come", at 1:17:20. He didn't specify in Forza 7.
1:17:30 "There are no penalties associated with this right now" (track cutting). He keeps talking about not being disqualified or kicked out because of a dirty lap right now. He says absolutely nothing else about race regulations. Not a single word about collisions.



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#178 Posted : Monday, August 6, 2018 2:30:35 PM(UTC)
That's because it is not in this update. Jesus. So far they are coming through on their promises, I see no reason why penalties should be any different. We will just have to be patient. We all want it. I want it.

Edited by user Monday, August 6, 2018 2:32:11 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#179 Posted : Monday, August 6, 2018 2:53:56 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: leetorts Go to Quoted Post
That's because it is not in this update. Jesus. So far they are coming through on their promises, I see no reason why penalties should be any different. We will just have to be patient. We all want it. I want it.

Yeah but he already said what's next (and not in this update)...the end of tire walls. Could have said something about collision penalties, since it's all people have been asking for...
Of course we all want them. I'm just stating a fact here: he didn't say anything about it. Future...yeah "future" could be 1 month like it could be 1 year.
Here's another thing I wanted him to talk about: lapped and idle cars not being ghosted. This is what causes a lot of crashes too. Not a single word on it.

In Forza 4 I could play for hours. Thank god we could kick people out.

In Forza 7 I just have the patience to do a couple of races before giving up

http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aZNGqA9_460sa.gif

Edited by user Monday, August 6, 2018 3:08:33 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#180 Posted : Monday, August 6, 2018 3:32:48 PM(UTC)
That's why I stay in ghost events. It's not ideal but I can't stand having almost every race ruined. Meanwhile I've learned so many divisions doing the ghost league that I can drive almost anything decently. When this Penalty system comes in I will go back to collision lobbies. Trust me I know the frustration and it's not good for me lol. This is a major modification to the game and it takes time to add in what was not initially planned for. Have faith, I'm pretty sure they will come through with this. The exposition about no penalties in this update was just so people get it that it isn't here yet. Snowowl confirmed in another update and that's gospel coming from him. He is more in the know than we are.

Go to 1:17:02 in the video. "once we turn penalties on"

Edited by user Monday, August 6, 2018 3:55:26 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#181 Posted : Monday, August 6, 2018 3:40:49 PM(UTC)
The "WHEN" is unknown.
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#182 Posted : Monday, August 6, 2018 3:41:55 PM(UTC)
I think we can safely assume in the near future. Look the sooner the better of course. You know how secretive they are. If they say next month and something delay's it than they have egg on their face. I've been waiting 10 years, what is a few more months? I has to be soon before H4 gets really going and the focus shifts. I wouldn't count on Forza 8 on schedule. We have no idea if H4 will be finished when it comes out either. New console 2020 with Forza 8 as a launch title would make more sense. This whole game should be subscription based and they can just update it, upgrade the graphics, and add new cars and tracks without having to make a whole new game every time. Basically the same exact game and have the same issues crop up over and over again. $30 a yr and I would be sold.

Edited by user Monday, August 6, 2018 3:53:49 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#183 Posted : Monday, August 6, 2018 3:42:32 PM(UTC)
To be fair, when they announced all this back in May, I was originally expecting the track limits update to come out a few weeks after that, and that we would have at least heard something about the next step by now. The fact that it took another 3 months just to launch the track limits means they announced this very early on in the development process, or they're deliberately taking their time for some reason, either way it shows that we probably won't be seeing the next steps for a while. I'd be surprised if we got any more updates around this before FH4 is released.
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#184 Posted : Monday, August 6, 2018 3:46:46 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FTR Cervy Go to Quoted Post
To be fair, when they announced all this back in May, I was originally expecting the track limits update to come out a few weeks after that, and that we would have at least heard something about the next step by now. The fact that it took another 3 months just to launch the track limits means they announced this very early on in the development process, or they're deliberately taking their time for some reason, either way it shows that we probably won't be seeing the next steps for a while. I'd be surprised if we got any more updates around this before FH4 is released.

That's exactly what I'm thinking.

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#185 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2018 2:30:27 PM(UTC)
You have completely ruined this game now turn 10. This is horrible. Some tracks are ok but you've ruined COTA and Prague. YOU CANT EVEN USE THE CURBS ANYMORE without dirtying your lap. You haven't "hand drawn" anything, you just traced the edges of the black top.
Maybe you should hire some actual racecar drivers to show you what ACTUAL track limits are.

Its also insane to me that you decided to spend all your time RUINING the track limits instead of trying to fix the griefer problem this game has. It's still IMPOSSIBLE to have a clean race in public lobbies.

Way to go Turn 10 👏

Edited by user Wednesday, August 8, 2018 2:46:09 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#186 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2018 2:57:00 PM(UTC)
There are more updates coming, including race regulation which should tackle issues in MP.

Triton from T10 has mentioned in the August update thread, that one of the reasons these weren't released simultaneously, was to allow players to adjust to the new track limits before penalties come in to play. That seems fair to me.

With the track limits on the tracks I've run, they aren't massively different to what I'm used to. Sure to be some tracks I've not tried, which may hold some surprises for me. I'll adjust.

I don't play multiplayer often, the new time attack/ rivals However is something I will be losing a lot of time to.

Edited by user Wednesday, August 8, 2018 3:01:34 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#187 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2018 3:02:46 PM(UTC)
If you're referring to the really tight s at the end of the track where you can cut straight through it if you lay off the gas where your car is completely off the track which makes sense you can still get good speed if you hit the first apex right I don't have any corals with it I had no problems it I just ran a 1:56 in a stock sls Benz GT3 which is decent for a slower acceleratING car

Edited by user Wednesday, August 8, 2018 3:05:34 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#188 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2018 3:24:05 PM(UTC)
Most of the track limits are correct, the only ones I'm not okay with are the ones where there is obviously more road to use than is otherwise specified that are even in racing sims.
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#189 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2018 3:39:32 PM(UTC)
sure, there are probably some that need adjusting, and my driving will definitely need some adjusting, but I love the new track limits so far. No longer will I feel the need to figure out which corners I can cut, or need to cut, to compete. it's a good thing.
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#190 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2018 4:20:02 PM(UTC)
I like it for the most part as the limits are clear and laid out. That said some work clearly needs done. It's all good setting the limits at the edges of the tarmac or between the white lines but I feel they should include the curbs too. Several examples of real life racing lines are ruined due to the update too making people literally learn the wrong line. Sebring turn 1 is a good example as all cars hug the inside wall.

I still see this as positive however. With Turn 10 not adding any new tracks, having to relearn existing tracks helps.

Currently in multiplayer running these new limits puts you at a severe disadvantage to those running the old Forza clean lines or just blatently cutting/extending. This update should have came at the same time as penalties.
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#191 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2018 4:28:45 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ACR SPEARMAN Go to Quoted Post
I like it for the most part as the limits are clear and laid out. That said some work clearly needs done. It's all good setting the limits at the edges of the tarmac or between the white lines but I feel they should include the curbs too. Several examples of real life racing lines are ruined due to the update too making people literally learn the wrong line. Sebring turn 1 is a good example as all cars hug the inside wall.

I still see this as positive however. With Turn 10 not adding any new tracks, having to relearn existing tracks helps.

Currently in multiplayer running these new limits puts you at a severe disadvantage to those running the old Forza clean lines or just blatently cutting/extending. This update should have came at the same time as penalties.

Though I totally agree, the way turn 10 have done it, allows for no discrepancies in theory. If they were to model all of the exact real world line, it would be very time consuming and tough. I think it would be great, but leave that for the next installment or take your time and get them spot on.

It will also make racing closer and more fair than before too. No excuses for cutting corners now.

Edited by user Wednesday, August 8, 2018 4:30:19 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#192 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2018 8:24:58 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: BPR BirdMan Go to Quoted Post
You have completely ruined this game now turn 10. This is horrible. Some tracks are ok but you've ruined COTA and Prague. YOU CANT EVEN USE THE CURBS ANYMORE without dirtying your lap. You haven't "hand drawn" anything, you just traced the edges of the black top.
Maybe you should hire some actual racecar drivers to show you what ACTUAL track limits are.

Its also insane to me that you decided to spend all your time RUINING the track limits instead of trying to fix the griefer problem this game has. It's still IMPOSSIBLE to have a clean race in public lobbies.

Way to go Turn 10 👏


A racing driver is the last person i'd ask to show me track limits. They are the reason track limits are so debatable. A racing driver will tell me to cut and extend every corner cos that's their job, to take the shortest line of resistance around every corner. We'd end up with worse limits than we already had like hockenheim.

What Turn 10 have done is absolutely correct. A strict black and white rule on the limits to begin with and then we can work on it from there. There may need to be some changes before the penalties drop like VIR Patriot's corners that now need a handbrake to get around and Rio's ugly interpretation of the kerbs round the back of the circuit.
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#193 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2018 8:33:06 PM(UTC)
deleted

Edited by user Wednesday, August 8, 2018 8:42:34 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#194 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2018 8:40:55 PM(UTC)
Someone from the T10 Track design team should walk around and see the Pro Racing line first hand during the 12 hour race.
Or better yet . . . go do a driving event there. Then maybe you would get the track limits correct.

Look - I'm no Pro Driver - but every year I spend at least 6-10 days at or on Sebring and I have seen driving at the track from every angle - on or beside it.

Regardless of what "racing line" you have found to be best suited for a particular class of vehicle in Forza World
The fact remains that the "limits" of the track should not be more restrictive than reality.
In the August Update, T10 has redefined and moved the driving limits farther from reality than they already were before. VERY DISAPPOINTING.

Lets start with Turn 1.
Reality - EVERYONE apexes AT THE WALL.
T10 has the limits on the yellow line and an apex near the wall will dirty your lap. - TOTALLY UNREALISTIC

Next is Turn 16 (right hander onto back straight)
Reality - EVERYONE widens the entrance for turn-in out near where T10 shows 4 cones
T10 mistakenly uses the painted white line as the track limit and the actual turn-in point is wrongly a "dirty" lap. TOTALLY UNREALISTIC

And Finally - The "favorite" of everyone that has ever driven Sebring - we have Turn 17 (right hand 180 onto front stretch)
Reality - The Walls are the ultimate limits (especially for track out)
T10 - mistakenly uses the white reference arc for the track limits and tracking out to the front stretch wall will wrongly dirty your lap. and again TOTALLY UNREALISTIC

You could write a book about Turn 17 and the multiple racing lines through it. We instructors argue about the best way to teach a novice how to "survive" it.

Basically you have a 180 degree turn between two parallel walls and bounded by one very NOT curved and NOT perpendicular end wall.
Next time you take a Forza lap stop at the 100 marker on the back stretch stop and take a gander what's in front of you.
Whether Forza or real, the approach to this turn is OPTICALLY WRONG. It's not a wall that gets deeper as it follows the contour of the "track". Quite the opposite.
That blue and white end wall in the distance actually has a diagonal lie coming at you from left to right and pinches down to the bridge entrance that you can't see from turn-in
All of this diminishing wide open space gives a "lost" in space feeling as the depth rapidly decreases the deeper you travel.

Depending on grip, downforce and horsepower (Miata momentum vs Mustang acceleration vs high downforce GT Racer) the optimum (fastest) line through Turn 17 shifts from a true double apex to a sweeping arc.

Regardless of the line the entry is very similar. Hard brake to set up initial turn in from driver's left somewhere plus or minus from the backstretch 200 marker.
Point the car and slightly trail-brake to just miss the inside wall near the last blue panel
(near the portable light pole/generator where T10 forgot to put the corner worker we all get close enough to recognize at lunch).

If you are taking the double apex approach you set up for a 2nd straight line brake headed toward the roll-up door on the right hand building (near where T10 paints the middle of the three blue/white tents). The turn-in /pivot point takes you beyond the white arc line that T10 makes the track limit. Once pivoted, accelerate toward the point where the driver's right yellow line pinches the grass near pit in.

Which brings us to the most egregious error in the T10 limit definition for this turn. The exit of Turn 17 includes ALL driver's left - right up to the wall along the left hand side of the front stretch - but T10 will dirty your lap if you cross the white line anywhere throughout Turn 17.

The track limits at Turn 1 and Turn 17 ARE the walls.

Oh Well. It never ceases to amaze me that my worst comparative times in Forza occur at the one track that I have the most real world experience (of the 16 I've been lucky enough to drive).

Edited by user Thursday, August 9, 2018 9:22:00 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#195 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2018 9:49:20 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: g8rbob1 Go to Quoted Post
Or better yet . . . go do a driving event there. Then maybe you would get the track limits correct.

Look - I'm no Pro Driver - but every year I spend at least 6-10 days at or on Sebring and I have seen driving at the track from every angle - on or beside it.

Regardless of what "racing line" you have found to be best suited for a particular class of vehicle in Forza World
The fact remains that the "limits" of the track should not be more restrictive than reality.
In the August Update, T10 has redefined and moved the driving limits farther from reality than they already were before. VERY DISAPPOINTING.

Which brings us to the most egregious error in the T10 limit definition for this turn. The exit of Turn 17 includes ALL driver's left - right up to the wall along the left hand side of the front stretch - but T10 will dirty your lap if you cross the white line anywhere throughout Turn 17.

The track limits at Turn 1 and Turn 17 ARE the walls.



Great post and I agree with basically everything in your post, only trimming it down to not make a long quote train.

I was excited to hear that TURN 10 was going to revise all the track limits in the game, but from what I am seeing in the game and reading on the forums my biggest fear has been realized. It appears that the track limits when compared to what they would be in reality have gotten worse. Each track has it's own personality during a real event, not just a specific idea of keeping between some painted lines or between the curbing. Some track limits were so bad before the revision, IndyGP and Le Mans circuits come to mind, that anything would be better than what we had.

I'm not complaining, just some constructive criticism. The track limits are the heart and soul of a racing game when measuring ones skill against another. Yes we all have the same track limits, but that is not the point. To get these wrong based against their real life counter-parts is a huge miss, especially considering that a full LEADERBOARD WIPE was done. If it was up to me they could've taken all the time they wanted, if it meant getting these as close to possible to their real counter parts. The fantasy tracks, I couldn't care less where they define the track limits, but the real life tracks should've been far closer to what is considered legal track limits IRL events.


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#196 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2018 11:16:23 PM(UTC)
Folks, there is a reason the team does not recreate tracks on a 1:1 basis because it's a game that's accessible to all rather than those who prefer 100% simulation and maybe want to use Forza as a tool to improve real world driving.

As much as I love hardcore realism in *driving games*, Forza is still very much a game and not an industry-grade simulator. The game needs to be fun to play, especially in MP, and all things considered, I'm sure there is logic behind the tracks not being 100% to scale. Also the fact that Forza uses a narrow FOV (fish eye effect) to enhance sense of speed does not help. If you put a regular cam (not a GoPro one) on the hood or bumper of your car and record a lap on any one of the actual tracks represented in the game, you'll notice that the objects are much bigger in real life.

It may be due to these differences in scale that the track limits do not appear accurate in the game. But I'm no expert on the subject as I;ve never been to these circuits IRL. Just my two. Try to enjoy the game for what it is - it truly is the most complete racing game you could buy on the Xbox despite its flaws.
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#197 Posted : Wednesday, August 8, 2018 11:36:42 PM(UTC)
Here's a bigger reason. Do you know how long it would take to accurately lay down each and every specific track limit for every ribbon in the game? I'll give a hint. A hell of a long time. Especially considering every track is different. Some tracks like COTA are extremely lenient on their track limits. Same with Sebring where as others aren't. Not only would it take a lot of time, recourses and man power, but it also opens a can of worms for the main fact that there would be a lot of inconsistencies. New drivers might question, why can't I cut Eau Rouge but at COTA I can go right over the white lines? And that is a genuine concern considering FM is supposed to be an accessible, plug in and play SIM. Using a universal system works much better. I agree it's not 100% realistic, but then again neither is FM in general nor any racing game out there. Maybe they can change it later on, but for now, it is much, much better than what we had.
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#198 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2018 12:19:44 AM(UTC)
Personally I like the new track limits and have no problem with them whatsoever.

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#199 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2018 1:13:05 AM(UTC)
I was thinking the same thing about Brands. A few years ago the MSA brought in new track limit rules for all circuit racing in the UK. This basically is that you are allowed your outside wheels to be to the furthest edge of the kerb. Drivers who extend beyond this are first given a driving standards flag, then if they do it again they get black flagged. We joked at the time that it was because Jonathan Palmer doesn't like his precious grass getting ruined. It was actually safety reasons. Obviously, with all the rain we get over here bringing mud and **** onto the circuit happens when you go on the grass. Not to mention stones and things that damage or block air intakes on other competitors. I thought that the concrete on the exits from Druids and Graham Hill allowed for a wheel. I have been to Brands so many times over the years (I've seen Steve Soper, Tim Harvey, John Cleland do battle there, which was donkeys years ago) and always observed drivers using these bits of concrete 3 or 4 times in a race and never having so much as a warning. No danger of ruining the grass here, right? And it's not like it helps your lap time either. It just unsettles the car and makes you cook your tyres. I don't really get why it dirties your lap, you've ruined it anyway. I was interested to find out if they had included these in the track limit regulations. I have it on pretty good authority that they did. I think Scott Mansell would know.

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#200 Posted : Thursday, August 9, 2018 4:18:08 AM(UTC)
The point is this. If you are making "improvements", why diminish the realism.
Yes there are painted reference lines (or remnants of them from heavy wear!!) at Sebring.
No, they do not define track limits. Further, they did not all define the T10 limits prior to 8/8/2018. Now they do.

Track limits at Sebring are well defined, HARSH and unforgiving - a little grass, a lot of wall and a few forebodingly high curbs not reproduced in the Forza simulation (T3-Driver's Left, T4-DR, T10-DR and T16-DR).

T10 takes a lot of self-kudos for the amount of effort that goes into mapping the tracks in the game. Claiming (and I have no reason to doubt) to send photographic and laser teams to the site to assure maximum realism. The result is a smaller, but more accurate set of real world tracks through the game iterations. The significant effort is one of the reasons given for not having added many real world track in game updates, especially in the later editions of the game. I applaud their efforts at recreating tracks and except for the absence of those few menacing curbs, Sebring was superbly recreated. The new and artificial track limits slight the effort made and the results.

Edited by user Thursday, August 9, 2018 4:26:43 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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