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Rank: Driver's Permit
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#76 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 5:26:09 AM(UTC)
To stop the ramming and griefers, the penalties HAVE to be slow downs + ghosted for 5-10 seconds, otherwise they would be completely pointless and ineffective in terms of stopping them. They don't care about getting a post race penalty. Repeat offenders should either be ghosted for a period of time until they race clean, or at least be put into races with other griefers.

Lapped cars should be ghosted.

I'd imagine corner cutting will soon stop if they handled it the same way as griefers, but I would be happy with post race penalties in this case (+1 sec for every corner cut, or something to that affect).

This is definitely good from T10, but the pessimist in me can still see them rolling this out in a way that doesn't fix the problems at all. They really need to listen to our feedback in how it should be implemented.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
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#77 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 5:34:33 AM(UTC)
I hate to be "that guy" but even though these features are welcome, they are too little, too late. The game should have shipped with this feature set intact. If other games like GT Sport and Project CARS 2 could do it then Forza Motorsport should have done it long ago. Next month as Forza Horizon 4 will be announced most marketing efforts will switch to that game, leaving Motorsport 7 in the dark. Only very few people will stick with this game long enough to enjoy and use this new feature set. The only thing I hope for is that next year's Forza Motorsport 8 will be much more feature rich in this regard, and everything learned here will be implemented, resulting in a better, more serious racing game. FM7 was a misstep for the franchise and now the developers have to catch up to the demands of the community, and frankly the quality bar they've set up themselves. I really hope FM8 will deliver.
Rank: Moderator
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#78 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 5:49:48 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: dreampage Go to Quoted Post
Next month as Forza Horizon 4 will be announced most marketing efforts will switch to that game, leaving Motorsport 7 in the dark. Only very few people will stick with this game long enough to enjoy and use this new feature set.

People would rather do nothing for the next five months while waiting for a game they can't play? Or they'd play the game that is getting new features and cars?

Rank: Driver's License
#79 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 6:50:53 AM(UTC)
Please make using the handbrake in cars that don’t have them dirty your lap times or take them out completely 👍

Edited by user Friday, May 18, 2018 6:53:48 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's License
 1 user liked this post.
#80 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 7:06:45 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ManteoMax Go to Quoted Post
"We've completely rewritten the limits of every track, hand drawn those limits."

This feature looks really good !

Gj T10

FM2 FM4 FM7 FH3 <3
Rank: S-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
User is suspended until 2/2/2046 1:34:58 AM(UTC)
#81 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 7:11:26 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: andrOOrdna Go to Quoted Post
All good and hopefully it gets implemented without any issues.

Track limits for single player doesn't really change much, because most of laps are still going to be dirty with the current AI. Penalty system, on the other hand, should be kept away from the single player with the exact same reason, the AI (unfair, stupid, silly, sometimes hilarious, most of the time just ruining your races).


Its not so much needed in Campaign but would be a good way of peeps learning the track and the limits but will make a world of difference in FreePlay and Rivals. Will stop people who post stupidly fast times on tracks, Only to find out when you watch there lap in replay they have cut chunks of the actual track. Are they fast drivers or just dirty drivers with clean lap times. This will level the playing field and actually produce clean driving with out the excuse for cutting that some are claiming if it says clean it is clean even though I went off road several times in my hot lap.


The current Bounty Hunt is a classic exzample of what some are claiming clean driving just because you have a clean lap dose not make it clean or in the interest of competive motor racing cheating is cheating and cutting weather clean or dirty is cheating in my books. I am looking foward to the new track limit system.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#82 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 7:20:08 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: dreampage Go to Quoted Post
I hate to be "that guy" but even though these features are welcome, they are too little, too late. The game should have shipped with this feature set intact. If other games like GT Sport and Project CARS 2 could do it then Forza Motorsport should have done it long ago. Next month as Forza Horizon 4 will be announced most marketing efforts will switch to that game, leaving Motorsport 7 in the dark. Only very few people will stick with this game long enough to enjoy and use this new feature set. The only thing I hope for is that next year's Forza Motorsport 8 will be much more feature rich in this regard, and everything learned here will be implemented, resulting in a better, more serious racing game. FM7 was a misstep for the franchise and now the developers have to catch up to the demands of the community, and frankly the quality bar they've set up themselves. I really hope FM8 will deliver.


GT Sport's system is flawed and even its supporters complain about it. They had 7 months of tweaks and still people complain.

Nothing wrong with playing the waiting game, seeing what others are doing and learning from their mistakes.

This "grass is greener on the other side" really needs to stop. I sometimes visit other communities to see how things are over there. It's the same.

Another thing that bothers me is people not having any grounds for an argument, which you see often here. I'm getting a little off-topic here, but look at the car sound thread. I've played many, many racing games over the years, even though I'm a relative newbie to Forza. I know many of the methods each studio uses, even Turn 10 in the past. It's clear to me that Forza 7 uses juxtaposition of several different samples to get their results. The problem is sometimes the team does not use accurate samples and does not nail the correct pitch, for whatever reasons, but their current SFX engine is excellent. Then you have to debate with people who think that Carrera GT with straight pipes they heard on YouTube is the real deal. I remember the hype when Assetto Corsa switched to the FMOD engine, and I had played NFS Shift which used the FMOD engine and found it utterly unimpressive, so I knew the switch wouldn't magically improve the game's sounds. Alas, the sounds didn't get any better indeed.

(I also know many of NFS Shift's poor samples have been used through Project CARS 2, and find it amusing when people deafly praise them, but this is conversation for another topic)

The team has added A TON of stuff to the game since release. That it sometimes comes broken does not change the fact they did add stuff, and lots of it. And they're going to add more, even beyond Forza Horizon 4's announcement. They also extended the Car Pass beyond the period any other Forza has had. I feel very happy with it, almost as if Turn 10 was apologizing for some of the mishandling of the past. This is better than Forza Horizon 3, when you had a Car Pass, an Expansion Pass, and the Expansion Pass was not even included in the Ultimate Edition of the game!

It amuses me that, now that Forza Motorsport 7 is in the spotlight, people look back at Forza Horizon 3 with rose-tinted glasses. Less than a year ago, the FH3 forums had no shortage of complaints about unfixed bugs, people demanding leaked cars only a few players had up to that point, and so on. Taking the leaked cars for example, most of them were released in Forzathons during August/September, at least two months after Forza Motorsport 7 was officially revealed at the E3. "Too little, too late"? I don't think so. I thought the VIP-exclusive events were disappointing, but VIP in FH3 did work as an extra car pack as well as giving you double the prize money from wheelspins, so it wasn't all bad.

Edited by user Friday, May 18, 2018 7:40:53 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

May the forced induction be with you.

Alice >>>>>>>>>> Keira
Rank: Racing Permit
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#83 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 7:24:04 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ManteoMax Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: dreampage Go to Quoted Post
Next month as Forza Horizon 4 will be announced most marketing efforts will switch to that game, leaving Motorsport 7 in the dark. Only very few people will stick with this game long enough to enjoy and use this new feature set.

People would rather do nothing for the next five months while waiting for a game they can't play? Or they'd play the game that is getting new features and cars?



I can tell you that the last 4 months of updates have done just that for myself. I haven't loaded this game except once a week to collect "rewards" credits.

I'll play it once the new features have been implemented and proven not to crash the game or introduce visual glitches. Until then I am, and have been for a while, done with this game.

Rank: Racing Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#84 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 7:31:07 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: WinterR3ap3R Go to Quoted Post
I can tell you that the last 4 months of updates have done just that for myself. I haven't loaded this game except once a week to collect "rewards" credits.

I'll play it once the new features have been implemented and proven not to crash the game or introduce visual glitches. Until then I am, and have been for a while, done with this game.


You don't even need to log in every week in this game, the gift credits accumulate in your messages! I think the only Forza game that forces you to log in regularly to get credits is FM6.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#85 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 8:02:45 AM(UTC)
so track limits is coming, i hope T10 have actually communicated with the tracks owners to get an accurate portrayal of limits. Brands Hatch for example, in touring car racing the cars will go outside the limits , this comes with a warning. Too many times and they're penalised. Other tracks you see racers in real races having all four wheels off track, this is acceptable as it is the racing line.

In racing you are allowed to stray over the limits as long as the other 2 wheels are on track, so cutting is allowed but only to a certain point. There are tracks in Forza 7 where if you go off track you do not get penalised, the first turn on road america for example, you hit the rumble strips on the exit and usually all four wheels are off track, with no penalty. I hope T10 do not get over confident and really restrict the limits. I also hope they are consulting with real race drivers and track owners to get these limits correct.
Rank: Racing Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#86 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 9:07:44 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: HIR07A Go to Quoted Post

FIA Formula 1 Sporting Regulations 2018 state (and they have been like this for a while) the white line at the edge of the track (before the kerb) denotes the extent of the track, and at least one part of the car must be inside it. The kerb is not part of the track.



Fair enough then, I stand corrected, but that's not what the rules said at the time of the Verstappen incident in Austin last year, when he was judged to have abused track limits by about an inch even though all 4 wheels weren't even on the kerb, let alone an inch away from the black stuff.

Originally Posted by: Sith Metal 1971 Go to Quoted Post
i hope T10 have actually communicated with the tracks owners to get an accurate portrayal of limits. Brands Hatch for example, in touring car racing the cars will go outside the limits , this comes with a warning. Too many times and they're penalised. Other tracks you see racers in real races having all four wheels off track, this is acceptable as it is the racing line.
.


Couldn't agree more, but they also need to understand where the unspoken 'we don't care about track limits here' places are for each circuit. I was at Brands a couple of weeks ago for the Blancpain GT Series, spent a while watching at both Paddock Hill and Graham Hill bends, and at both corners about half the field each lap were running with two wheels on the kerb and two on the green paint (turn 1)/grass (turn 3) and not once did I hear of anyone receiving a penalty. 40 laps exactly for a 20 car field means that any less than 20 strikes per car would have resulted in a penalty for every single car in the field, so I think it's fair to say they didn't care about track limits in turns 1 or 3. Same story goes for Luffield and Copse at Silverstone, only once in the 20+ times I've been can I recall anyone getting a penalty for track limits (one of the Audis in WEC a few years back) - naturally there will have been more but again, it's hardly a common occurrence and yet people run wide every lap. Hope this gets taken into account.

Edited by user Friday, May 18, 2018 9:22:50 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Wow I really need to pay more attention to typing, that's three times now

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#87 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 9:19:51 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Camdoo7 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HIR07A Go to Quoted Post

FIA Formula 1 Sporting Regulations 2018 state (and they have been like this for a while) the white line at the edge of the track (before the kerb) denotes the extent of the track, and at least one part of the car must be inside it. The kerb is not part of the track.



Fair enough then, I stand corrected, but that's not what the rules said at the time of the Verstappen incident in Austin last year, when he was judged to have abused track limits by about an inch even though all 4 wheels weren't even on the kerb, let alone an inch away from the black stuff.


Can someone from T10 comment on these comments. To clarify if were going to get proper track limits or T10's track limits.

We might see some realistic times rather than the arcade type timings we keep getting on the leaderboards.

Edited by user Friday, May 18, 2018 9:21:51 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: R-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#88 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 9:21:13 AM(UTC)
Info will trickle out in the coming months. Todays week in review should have something. This will be a long process with a few steps and maybe some missteps along the way. All will not be revealed so quickly. Some think H4 means everything stops for F7 but I really don't think so this time around.

Edited by user Friday, May 18, 2018 9:24:30 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: On the Podium
#89 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 9:24:57 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DUST2DEATH Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ManteoMax Go to Quoted Post
I've added the replay video in the first post. You can see "time credit" accumulating time penalty, and also an increase in penalty points.


Ta. Interesting. nvm, it clicked. Dirty for lapping. Time penalty for racing.



I like the sound of that.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#90 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 9:55:10 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Camdoo7 Go to Quoted Post
...
Same story goes for Luffield and Copse at Silverstone, only once in the 20+ times I've been can I recall anyone getting a penalty for track limits (one of the Audis in WEC a few years back) - naturally there will have been more but again, it's hardly a common occurrence and yet people run wide every lap. Hope this gets taken into account.


I remember watching this race and it was quite funny, as the Audi was chasing the Porsche through there and complaining that they were running 4 wheels off the track, when they were running even wider. After the next pitstops, the cars were the other round and the same conversation starts taking place, ie Porsche complaining about Audi
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#91 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 9:57:54 AM(UTC)
My only concern is rammers don't care about penalty points. So maybe ghosting players exceeding a certain amount of penalties will get rid of them once and for all.

As for the leaderboard I think an asterisk or dirty lap for all current set times and then they won't impact the new clean laps system and doesn't completely undo the hard work people might have already out in.
Rank: Racing Permit
#92 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 10:31:31 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Sith Metal 1971 Go to Quoted Post
so track limits is coming, i hope T10 have actually communicated with the tracks owners to get an accurate portrayal of limits. Brands Hatch for example, in touring car racing the cars will go outside the limits , this comes with a warning. Too many times and they're penalised. Other tracks you see racers in real races having all four wheels off track, this is acceptable as it is the racing line.

In racing you are allowed to stray over the limits as long as the other 2 wheels are on track, so cutting is allowed but only to a certain point. There are tracks in Forza 7 where if you go off track you do not get penalised, the first turn on road america for example, you hit the rumble strips on the exit and usually all four wheels are off track, with no penalty. I hope T10 do not get over confident and really restrict the limits. I also hope they are consulting with real race drivers and track owners to get these limits correct.


It always drove me crazy that you're assessed a penalty on Forza for using the carpet at Graham Hill Bend when literally every racing series going allows the drivers to use it.

Rank: Racing Permit
#93 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 10:57:01 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Colin Girth Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Sith Metal 1971 Go to Quoted Post
so track limits is coming, i hope T10 have actually communicated with the tracks owners to get an accurate portrayal of limits. Brands Hatch for example, in touring car racing the cars will go outside the limits , this comes with a warning. Too many times and they're penalised. Other tracks you see racers in real races having all four wheels off track, this is acceptable as it is the racing line.

In racing you are allowed to stray over the limits as long as the other 2 wheels are on track, so cutting is allowed but only to a certain point. There are tracks in Forza 7 where if you go off track you do not get penalised, the first turn on road america for example, you hit the rumble strips on the exit and usually all four wheels are off track, with no penalty. I hope T10 do not get over confident and really restrict the limits. I also hope they are consulting with real race drivers and track owners to get these limits correct.


It always drove me crazy that you're assessed a penalty on Forza for using the carpet at Graham Hill Bend when literally every racing series going allows the drivers to use it.




Same with the runoff coming out of the last left hander (before the Ford Chicane) at LeMans, most drivers IRL run it all the way out to the wall. Drives me nuts.

As for Road America, drivers run wide onto the runoff in both turn one and Canada Corner pretty frequently.
Rank: Moderator
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#94 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 11:29:20 AM(UTC)
https://www.forzamotorsport.net/en-us/news/wir_5_18_18

Quote:
Race Regulations

You’ve wanted it, we’ve wanted it, and now it’s on its way. Yesterday we announced our upcoming race regulations system (colloquially known around the community as a “player penalty system”).

The new system – which is still in development and will be rolled out in several stages – is being designed not just as a tool to deal with griefers but also as a method of teaching players of all skill levels what is and what is not allowed online in a Forza race. It’s one of the reasons I’m so excited for this feature to come into the game – we want to make all Forza Motorsport players better racers.

The system starts with our new and improved track limits system. The team has gone through every track and ribbon in Forza Motorsport 7 and rebuilt track limits by hand. Our goal is to bring consistency and predictability to track limits across the board. We’re also giving players more visibility into those track limits, with a new option that illuminates track edges and will give players a color-coded warning when they’re getting close to the edge.

Admittedly we didn’t have a lot of time to explain the details of the race regulations system in yesterday’s show segment. I know that the community is hotly anticipating more details on the race regulation system and rest assured we’ll have more to share in the future. It’s a common refrain you hear from me but it fits here: stay tuned for more as we have lots to share.
Rank: Racing Permit
#95 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 11:39:54 AM(UTC)
Hats off to them. I didn’t see it coming but I’m glad they are making positive steps and at the very least, starting to address the issue.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#96 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 1:16:43 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: outsider819 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Colin Girth Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Sith Metal 1971 Go to Quoted Post
so track limits is coming, i hope T10 have actually communicated with the tracks owners to get an accurate portrayal of limits. Brands Hatch for example, in touring car racing the cars will go outside the limits , this comes with a warning. Too many times and they're penalised. Other tracks you see racers in real races having all four wheels off track, this is acceptable as it is the racing line.

In racing you are allowed to stray over the limits as long as the other 2 wheels are on track, so cutting is allowed but only to a certain point. There are tracks in Forza 7 where if you go off track you do not get penalised, the first turn on road america for example, you hit the rumble strips on the exit and usually all four wheels are off track, with no penalty. I hope T10 do not get over confident and really restrict the limits. I also hope they are consulting with real race drivers and track owners to get these limits correct.


It always drove me crazy that you're assessed a penalty on Forza for using the carpet at Graham Hill Bend when literally every racing series going allows the drivers to use it.




Same with the runoff coming out of the last left hander (before the Ford Chicane) at LeMans, most drivers IRL run it all the way out to the wall. Drives me nuts.

As for Road America, drivers run wide onto the runoff in both turn one and Canada Corner pretty frequently.


So are "run off" points going to be penalised?
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#97 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 1:32:22 PM(UTC)
Wow! I am so glad to hear about these changes!
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#98 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 1:34:41 PM(UTC)
we may see who really is the quickest, with more realistic times .
Rank: Series Champion
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#99 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 2:40:01 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Alan J T Go to Quoted Post

Will stop people who post stupidly fast times on tracks, Only to find out when you watch there lap in replay they have cut chunks of the actual track. Are they fast drivers or just dirty drivers with clean lap times. This will level the playing field and actually produce clean driving with out the excuse for cutting that some are claiming if it says clean it is clean even though I went off road several times in my hot lap.


The current Bounty Hunt is a classic exzample of what some are claiming clean driving just because you have a clean lap dose not make it clean or in the interest of competive motor racing cheating is cheating and cutting weather clean or dirty is cheating in my books. I am looking foward to the new track limit system.


Originally Posted by: Sith Metal 1971 Go to Quoted Post
we may see who really is the quickest, with more realistic times .


I hate to be the bearer of bad news but, the same people will be at the top of the boards and you will still be where you place. And such is the circle of forza.
Talking to brick walls since 2007.
Motivational Poster. Praise Dragnet
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#100 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 4:53:46 PM(UTC)
There is reason to be a little cautious of these changes, and I do hope that this system is an option in private lobbies, as it could cause some new issues for organized league racing.

There are legitimate reasons to go off track, and as mentioned above, most series give a warning or two before bringing the hammer down. They also have stewards that look at incidents and decide if a penalty is necessary. Just like the flaws with penalties for contact in other games, the game surely won't have the ability to apportion blame properly and opens the door to other incidents. The most obvious example is when there is a crash in front of you and you avoid the wreck by going out of the track limits. If you gather a penalty in the process, and then that penalty costs you a position on the race finish, then it will not be ideal.

In most organized leagues there is a higher standard of driving (not always though), so these changes won't necessarily be necessary and if they are forced on it will potentially cause issues. Using the above example, a crash happens causing a green-white-checker situation. A car avoids the crash by driving off the track, and retakes their position in 5th with say 3 seconds of penalty for leaving the circuit to avoid the wreck, on top of a further 4 seconds they accumulated during the rest of the race for actually violating track limits. The field bunches up under the caution, and 6th is now right on their bumper. After going back to green, 5th holds their position and opens a gap of 3.5 seconds over 6th, but on crossing the finish line, it drops 5th to 6th due to their penalties. Now an argument begins over who finished where, and how much penalty was legitimate avoiding the incident and how much was from actually cutting the track and whether or not 5th deserved to lose their place.

This will also change the dynamic when racing in close proximity to other racers, and will have an effect on how we have to race each other. With the current system, if you line up a pass on someone and they squeeze you towards the edge of the track (whether on purpose or because they just aren't aware you are there) you can move with them and avoid contact. With the new system, if you allow them to force you off the road you will earn a time penalty, likely ensuring that they will finish ahead of you even if you stay with it and get around them... This could lead to more on-track contact, as those situations will likely turn into shoving matches. The driver being overtaken will know that squeezing them off track will give them a penalty and be less likely to give room, and the driver doing the overtaking will likely assume it is a dirty move (even when it's just poor spatial awareness) and refuse to be squeezed off the track... and the only way to fight back is to turn into the car trying to squeeze them.

These will affect the public hoppers differently than the organized leagues too. The hoppers are generally filled with more questionable driving and "dirty" tactics. Right now the dirty racers ram and cut the track, but these changes won't make them go away, they will just find new ways to be dirty. Whether it's brake checking people to give them a contact penalty, running players off the track so that they gather up penalty time, or whatever other angles they can exploit, they will continue to find whatever cheap advantage they can and abuse it.

These penalty systems are never as easy as many people try to make them out to be. There are so many situational things that can happen that a computer can never apportion blame properly for. As with nearly any racing rule, it will never truly fix things but rather just shift things around a bit, and will come with some pros and some cons. That being said, I do feel that it is positive that they are at least trying. While there will always be some flaws with it, if they stick with it and continue to optimize it, then it can be a very positive feature. Turn 10 are unlikely to get it right on their first try though, and unfortunately they have a tendency to do something and then go "okay done, good enough" and neglect it for several titles, so here's to hoping they exceed expectations with this...

Edited by user Friday, May 18, 2018 4:57:11 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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