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#51 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2018 8:42:45 PM(UTC)
What's the issue with applying proper track limits to single player
Shouldn't that be what we are driving to anyway
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#52 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2018 8:43:43 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Soldier2DEnd Go to Quoted Post
Collision detection looks promising. But I'm not sure if it could differentiate between an actual collision or a lag bump. There's times where small bumps get amplified for the player getting hit and sometimes the player that hit them didn't even touch their car.

There's definitely some challenges to note of but nevertheless, I'm happy to see the initiative to push Forza towards a more mature and professional mindset.


They not only can differentiate but also have the perfect system for that. In Horizon, the game can tell a strong hit from a weak one, and not break your skill chain with weak bumps. I expect something like that to be added to their penalty system.


Actually.. Yeah, I think you might be right. I looked back at the video on Manteomax's first post and right at 3:04 you could see the hit register on the debug window.

It looks like it logs a few things like momentum difference/change, position changes, off track incidents and actual speed vs expected speed. Very nice.
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#53 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2018 10:19:29 PM(UTC)
Very glad to see Turn 10 moving to address one of the fundamental problems with racing in Forza.

It's a very good idea to start out with the track boundaries first so players can get used to driving with them before implementing penalties and regulations.

Hopefully it will be a smooth rollout over the next few months as they bring the different aspects of these new features online.
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Post Checklist: Spelling/Grammar - Constructive - Respectful
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#54 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2018 10:39:41 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: baritone mike Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CoveredHydra44 Go to Quoted Post


It's not unrealistic at all.

In physical racing the rules state the track is denoted by marked white and/or yellow lines on either side of the track and does not include ripple strips or curbs. Place two or more wheels outside of the marked track and you get a penalty or dirty lap, which is a fair call on a motorsport game.


In real racing the rumble stripes are used on a regular basis.

30 second mark being the worst
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVnbKVmcWxA

These guys are on the rumble stripes every turn and are even air born a few times
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAFRS5r2g8E

Every car in this video is on the rumble strip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d--2U1jFTBM




Yeah - what may be your point? The cars also very clearly have at least 2 wheels on the track.
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#55 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2018 10:57:50 PM(UTC)
Can use the rumble strips as long as 2 wheels are on the tarmac. You just cannot put the entire car on them.

Edited by user Thursday, May 17, 2018 10:59:04 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#56 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2018 11:04:15 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: CoveredHydra44 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: baritone mike Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CoveredHydra44 Go to Quoted Post


It's not unrealistic at all.

In physical racing the rules state the track is denoted by marked white and/or yellow lines on either side of the track and does not include ripple strips or curbs. Place two or more wheels outside of the marked track and you get a penalty or dirty lap, which is a fair call on a motorsport game.


In real racing the rumble stripes are used on a regular basis.

30 second mark being the worst
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVnbKVmcWxA

These guys are on the rumble stripes every turn and are even air born a few times
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAFRS5r2g8E

Every car in this video is on the rumble strip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d--2U1jFTBM




Yeah - what may be your point? The cars also very clearly have at least 2 wheels on the track.

Your original post said if 2 or more wheels were on the rumble strip a penalty or dirty lap should apply. Now you are saying as long as you have 2 wheels within the boundary you are good. Most race cars only have 4 wheels, so what statement are you trying to make? 2 wheels on a rumble strip is clean or dirty?
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#57 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2018 11:17:49 PM(UTC)
It is saying rumble strips are not part of the track so you cannot put more than 2 wheels on them. As long as 2 wheels are on the actual race track it is fine. 2 wheels on rumble strips 2 wheels on the track is ok. Just like any racecar driver will do and usually say in real life hot lap. Plenty of examples on youtube. There would be no reason for them to implement it any other way. Curbs are there for a reason.

Edited by user Thursday, May 17, 2018 11:30:49 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#58 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2018 11:18:23 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: baritone mike Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CoveredHydra44 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: baritone mike Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CoveredHydra44 Go to Quoted Post


It's not unrealistic at all.

In physical racing the rules state the track is denoted by marked white and/or yellow lines on either side of the track and does not include ripple strips or curbs. Place two or more wheels outside of the marked track and you get a penalty or dirty lap, which is a fair call on a motorsport game.


In real racing the rumble stripes are used on a regular basis.

30 second mark being the worst
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVnbKVmcWxA

These guys are on the rumble stripes every turn and are even air born a few times
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAFRS5r2g8E

Every car in this video is on the rumble strip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d--2U1jFTBM




Yeah - what may be your point? The cars also very clearly have at least 2 wheels on the track.

Your original post said if 2 or more wheels were on the rumble strip a penalty or dirty lap should apply. Now you are saying as long as you have 2 wheels within the boundary you are good. Most race cars only have 4 wheels, so what statement are you trying to make? 2 wheels on a rumble strip is clean or dirty?


As they've said, all the boundaries have been redrawn. Judging by the InsideXbox vid, that doesn't seem to include the rumbles on Monza. Also appears to be the same system that Forza currently uses; 2 tires off is clean, get atleast 3 tires OB and it's a done deal.

Edited by user Thursday, May 17, 2018 11:19:02 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#59 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2018 11:25:43 PM(UTC)
So is the new rules going to apply online as this is were its needed most cause or rammers and track cutting in my opinion is it gonna be added to main game also

Like the fact were getting more free cars also 2 more car packs for car pass owners
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#60 Posted : Thursday, May 17, 2018 11:48:05 PM(UTC)
DRAG RACING!!! I never thought it’d happen!

Edited by user Friday, May 18, 2018 12:40:41 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#61 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 12:07:13 AM(UTC)
Probably the best announcement Turn 10 has ever done. I like that they've drawn the track limits by hand, shouldn't be many mistakes then. Hopefully Turn 10 employ the "if all 4 wheels are beyond the white lines" rule. Leaderboards need to be wiped for this too. Hopefully now we can remove all the tire barriers, random cones, sticky grass and hard walls. Should help framerate and free up some power, help visibility at tracks like VIR, stop those ridiculous pile ups and make it more authentic to real life. Should be less loose tires in the middle of tracks now as well.

As for a penalty system for ramming, about time. It's been rife in Multiplayer for ages. They need to ghost lapped cars in most hoppers, ghost cars that have too high a closing speed round corners and ghost cars going under 10 MPH. I think they need a 3 strikes and you're out policy. If you create a massive crash or ram people three times in a race, you get kicked. There should be penalty points too. If you get kicked 3 or 4 times you should get a 1 day ban imo.

We need more Forza Marshalls and we need a better vote to kick system. And I do think this should be imposed in single player. A big problem is people playing single player, ramming AI out the way and coming into multiplayer thinking it's ok.

Can't wait for this update.
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#62 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 12:41:50 AM(UTC)
Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled to see track limits (and driving standards regulations in general) in Forza now. Multiplayer has gotten completely out of hand and I'll be very glad to see the end of barriers (both tyre and concrete) littering circuits across the world where they don't exist in reality. However (and this is a big however) the track limits shown in the Inside Xbox video at Monza (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFniqefXhwM) are fundamentally wrong. As per the FIA rules (not sure on IMSA or Indycar or whoever but I do know the FIA) the track limits includes the kerbs of a circuit - i.e. if you cut a corner, provided you have two wheels on the kerb you're fine. But as shown below at Vialone, Monza, this is not the case (2:43 into the video).

[img]https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMC24BMRAyV4qhVYGcQ8yizLqekSJ4OyL70jiCZ[/img]

In that picture, the new track limit lines are red to show that the corner has been cut and the lap will have been dirtied, but if the track limits were where they should be (shown in yellow) this would not be the case. The same issue also appears at Roggia earlier in the video (2:37 into the video).

[img]https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMJ5yEop4sQ2GznjACHxluIdufNG6gQIfKNQxOk[/img]

If Turn 10 want to make up their own track limits for every track then so be it, but to me it makes no sense to change them from what's widely accepted, and I can already see how much frustration such a seemingly small issue can (and will) cause. I can tell you right now that I'll be caught out by this at Silverstone (Copse and Stowe), Brands Hatch (Paddock Hill), Road Atlanta (Turn 5), Monza (Vialone and Ascari), and many more places. And that brings me to the Nurburgring. I can already feel the pain of spending 8-9 minutes doing an out lap (since neither standing nor rolling start allows you to get anywhere near enough speed up for a flying lap), then reaching the chicane about a minute and a half into the flying lap, using the real life track limits to take a big cut (see Nicki Thiim on YouTube), and having your lap dirtied (assuming the in-game track limits there are consistent with how they are at Monza).

Obviously it'd be completely unrealistic to expect this to be fixed in FM7, but I really do hope it gets fixed before we get another Motorsport game. Man, I'd even volunteer to do it myself.

[EDIT]: naturally, my photos didn't work, but the timestamp of each and video link is there so you can see for yourself if you're interested.

Edited by user Friday, May 18, 2018 12:42:43 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#63 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 1:36:27 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: KILLANEYROCKS Go to Quoted Post
So is the new rules going to apply online as this is were its needed most cause or rammers and track cutting in my opinion is it gonna be added to main game also

Like the fact were getting more free cars also 2 more car packs for car pass owners


Mechberg mentioned that they want to address the problems for multiplayer. As of right now it's unclear if this regulations are going to be optional or be in single player too.

Edited by user Friday, May 18, 2018 1:38:17 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#64 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 1:44:44 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
According to Mechberg they've redrawn all limits by hand, that's very interesting.


Did they use little marker pens?

Edited by user Friday, May 18, 2018 1:45:23 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#65 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 1:46:35 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Probably the best announcement Turn 10 has ever done. I like that they've drawn the track limits by hand, shouldn't be many mistakes then. Hopefully Turn 10 employ the "if all 4 wheels are beyond the white lines" rule. Leaderboards need to be wiped for this too. Hopefully now we can remove all the tire barriers, random cones, sticky grass and hard walls. Should help framerate and free up some power, help visibility at tracks like VIR, stop those ridiculous pile ups and make it more authentic to real life. Should be less loose tires in the middle of tracks now as well.

As for a penalty system for ramming, about time. It's been rife in Multiplayer for ages. They need to ghost lapped cars in most hoppers, ghost cars that have too high a closing speed round corners and ghost cars going under 10 MPH. I think they need a 3 strikes and you're out policy. If you create a massive crash or ram people three times in a race, you get kicked. There should be penalty points too. If you get kicked 3 or 4 times you should get a 1 day ban imo.

We need more Forza Marshalls and we need a better vote to kick system. And I do think this should be imposed in single player. A big problem is people playing single player, ramming AI out the way and coming into multiplayer thinking it's ok.

Can't wait for this update.

I proposed the exact rules in the subreddit a while back but people replied they were concerned that it may not work correctly and players may be suspended for accidents.

Edited by user Friday, May 18, 2018 1:59:11 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#66 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 2:04:35 AM(UTC)
But seriously if this works it could be the best thing forza has done in a long time,and it very much makes me chuckle to think of all the salty track cutters that won’t be able to get away with it anymore 🤣
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#67 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 2:11:08 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Handless21 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Probably the best announcement Turn 10 has ever done. I like that they've drawn the track limits by hand, shouldn't be many mistakes then. Hopefully Turn 10 employ the "if all 4 wheels are beyond the white lines" rule. Leaderboards need to be wiped for this too. Hopefully now we can remove all the tire barriers, random cones, sticky grass and hard walls. Should help framerate and free up some power, help visibility at tracks like VIR, stop those ridiculous pile ups and make it more authentic to real life. Should be less loose tires in the middle of tracks now as well.

As for a penalty system for ramming, about time. It's been rife in Multiplayer for ages. They need to ghost lapped cars in most hoppers, ghost cars that have too high a closing speed round corners and ghost cars going under 10 MPH. I think they need a 3 strikes and you're out policy. If you create a massive crash or ram people three times in a race, you get kicked. There should be penalty points too. If you get kicked 3 or 4 times you should get a 1 day ban imo.

We need more Forza Marshalls and we need a better vote to kick system. And I do think this should be imposed in single player. A big problem is people playing single player, ramming AI out the way and coming into multiplayer thinking it's ok.

Can't wait for this update.

I proposed the exact rules in the subreddit a while back but people replied they were concerned that it may not work correctly and players may be suspended for accidents.

It's a risk but one worth taking imo.
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#68 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 2:13:16 AM(UTC)
A positive step in the right direction. I’m hoping it’s as strict as possible and forced for all single and multiplayer.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#69 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 2:30:00 AM(UTC)
You are allowed to put 2 wheels over the white line, anymore and that's where track limits come into play, the racing surface is classed as the area inbetween the lines, rumble strips aren't part of the racing surface. Most series will allow you to go all 4 wheels over 3 times before penalties, do it once in quailly and you lose the lap. The exit of 3rd turn at Brands Hatch is really harsh, if your wheels go over the kerb, and all cars are capable of doing that while still having 2 wheels inside the white line (legal by FIA standards), you will go over a pad that takes a photo (the criss-cross pattern) and three times is a penalty.

The V8 supercar reference was just one lap and they may have not used up their 3 strikes, so could go all 4 over the lines and make the most of the track. In NASCAR, road courses don't have track limits as for some reason American series have trouble policing them. Just look at when WEC and Tudor/Weathertech series raced on the same weekend at COTA, the FIA policed the track limits with GPS for WEC and the IMSA race was a farce as they said they couldn't police it and told drivers the only thing they couldn't do was go all 4 over on the inside of turns.

I wonder how Sebring will be dealt with, the run on to the back straight involves going all 4 wheels over the white line by swinging right over to the left before turning right on the straight and the exit of turn 17. In both the cases in real life drivers go over the white line and it is deemed ok, same on the exit of the international horseshoe at Daytona roval course (2nd proper corner). I think in the US its a yellow line that acts like a white line in the rest of the world and white lines don't delineate track limits. I just want to be able to use the real racing lines used IRL and not be to restricted in places where its not IRL.

I wonder how it will work in terms of, well say some one cuts the Ford chicane at LM, they might only be off the circuit for 2-3 seconds if that but will have made the lap 4-6 seconds shorter as they will have had a constant speed and not had to have slowed and accelerated like the car taking the chicane, so will the penalty be enough. I also hope the penalties aren't to draconian for running wide, most of us on here are clean racers and it would be a shame to have a great battle with some one, run wide on an exit and gain a 10th, but because you had all 4 wheels over for 2 seconds lose a position or 2.

Edited by user Friday, May 18, 2018 2:38:54 AM(UTC)  | Reason: I'm about 2 seconds away from throwing this keyboard out the window.

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#70 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 2:46:14 AM(UTC)
All good and hopefully it gets implemented without any issues.

Track limits for single player doesn't really change much, because most of laps are still going to be dirty with the current AI. Penalty system, on the other hand, should be kept away from the single player with the exact same reason, the AI (unfair, stupid, silly, sometimes hilarious, most of the time just ruining your races).
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#71 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 2:48:02 AM(UTC)
All I can say is HOORAY!

I know I should temper my expectations, but if we can finally get some real racing etiquette enforced, then Forza online might actually be playable :P

I've been saying from the beginning that the Forza RC would cause T10 to re-think the competitive aspects of the game. Forza had moved pretty far from promoting any real competitive racing since FM4. I'm optimistic that Forza RC is their attempt to bring that back to the Motorsport series.
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#72 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 2:51:20 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Camdoo7 Go to Quoted Post
As per the FIA rules (not sure on IMSA or Indycar or whoever but I do know the FIA) the track limits includes the kerbs of a circuit - i.e. if you cut a corner, provided you have two wheels on the kerb you're fine. But as shown below at Vialone, Monza, this is not the case (2:43 into the video).


FIA Formula 1 Sporting Regulations 2018 state (and they have been like this for a while) the white line at the edge of the track (before the kerb) denotes the extent of the track, and at least one part of the car must be inside it. The kerb is not part of the track.

2018 Formula 1 Sporting Regulations wrote:
Article 27.3 Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not
deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.
Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and,
for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part
of the track but the kerbs are not.

Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is
safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race
director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he
gained by leaving the track.


https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110

The same statement in bold is present in Article 2, Chapter IV of Appendix L to the FIA International Sporting Code (with slightly different wording but the same intent).
2018 FIA International Sporting Code wrote:
Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage. A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.

Edited by user Friday, May 18, 2018 3:10:38 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#73 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 3:24:47 AM(UTC)
Could the confusion be because the length of the car means you can take a tight bend such that the line the side of the car follows is outside the track limit, but there is always one wheel inside the limit? So if you're taking the first left hand bit of a left-right chicane, you cut the corner, and your front right tyre goes off the track, but you're okay because your rear right tyre is still on the track. Then just as your rear right tyre is about to go off the track, your front right tyre returns to the track. So if watching this at full speed it might look like the car is taking a line that is beyond the track limit, but if you stepped through frame by frame you'd see that there is always part of one tyre inside the track limit.
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#74 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 3:43:30 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: andrOOrdna Go to Quoted Post
All good and hopefully it gets implemented without any issues.

Track limits for single player doesn't really change much, because most of laps are still going to be dirty with the current AI. Penalty system, on the other hand, should be kept away from the single player with the exact same reason, the AI (unfair, stupid, silly, sometimes hilarious, most of the time just ruining your races).


FACR DLtuning has posted a video and is doing a series proving you can race 100% clean on unbeatable with no problems. I think the issue is race length. Longer races means less panic to hit the front.

If it’s equally strict in single player, that should hopefully breed a better mentality going into multiplayer.
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#75 Posted : Friday, May 18, 2018 3:44:12 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: CW40 Go to Quoted Post
I'm all for stopping corner cutting, ramming and cheating but If the track limit is as tight as it shows in the video, that's really ridiculous. Your tire can't even touch the strips at the edge or even go a little off track in areas that are designed for it in real life. Really stupid decision that will make it like racing on rails in my opinion. Not realistic at all.


as long as you got 1 wheel on track your fine. you're only off track the moment all 4 tires are off

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