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Rank: A-Class Racing License
#351 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2019 1:46:25 PM(UTC)
To make it a proper simulator would mean slowing down the rate of acceleration, thereby foregoing the fun that is Forza, and they will also have to move away from the reward earning and reward dispensing aspects of the game, which is what the studio panders to. But then that's what Forza is all about: Force and Power play!
" If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari. "
- Gilles Villeneuve





Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#352 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2019 7:10:19 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Forza's base physics are actually quite good. ...

If you want Forza Motorsport to become more of a SIM, you don't need to revolutionize the physics system or strip down the car count & start again. What they need to do is add small details & refine certain existing aspects. ...

In short, it has an extremely good base to work on. All it needs is refining.


I agree the physics have always been very good. But for way too long they were basicly hidden from Simracers, due to not properly supporting wheels.
With the big FFB rework, it feels like they already made a major step towards sim.
They had stuff like simulation steering forever, but it took a really long time until it really made sense.
I think this cost them a lot of reputation with the sim racing community.

As for the general topic, I don`t think they should ditch the simcade approach, but expand on the sim side.
I read "simcade" as trying to be both, accessible for casual players offering a proper game, and also please sim fans.
Forza has the potential to be the have-it-all package of content and quality, no reason to step down and start copying dry sims.

Imo the important thing is giving players options. We should be able to e.g. tailor the career mode to be as arcadey as it is now, or to run qualifyings etc..
We should be able to pick between the trademark Forza coloring, or a more realistic color filter.
Not to make a list here, but there are tons of features that can be added as options to tailor the gameplay between arcade and sim.

Just to add one crucial thing ... without proper AI there is no point in even trying to be more sim.
I do like the rewind feature, but as long as it is mandatory to make up for the lack of AI there is no sim racing to be had.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#353 Posted : Friday, April 26, 2019 5:03:21 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Forza's base physics are actually quite good. It has a decent suspension model, great tyre flex & deformation model, good Force Feedback for wheels & is second to none on a controller, I could go on & on, but I'll re-iterate again, how are you going to accurately simulate 800 cars? Especially when every car also has tuning & a very extensive upgrade system? The short is, unless you purge the car count & spend days refining each car to get as close as it can to its real life counterpart, you can't. All you'll get by doing this is a huge community backlash akin to Foza Motorsport 5, where we had a fistful of tracks, just 200 cars & pretty much no features compared to both Forza Motorsport 4 or what we have now in Forza Motorsport .

If you want Forza Motorsport to become more of a SIM, you don't need to revolutionize the physics system or strip down the car count & start again. What they need to do is add small details & refine certain existing aspects. Stuff like DRS, KERS, KERS & Hybrid modes will go a long way. Different tyre compounds, qualifying, more tuning options, brake fade & maybe more damage options. Actually simulating stuff like active aero. The new collision system is a very good start to this.

In short, it has an extremely good base to work on. All it needs is refining.


Really? Based on the tuning menus I call the physics about as close to vanilla as they can be. They work and as far as saying you are driving a car it works however everything in this game is boilerplate, and a push towards sim is never going to happen. Regarding getting active aero to work, how about just making aero/draft work in general nevermind active aero. Cant even get opponent distance measured in time.... nevermind the rest of the dreams.


The tuning menu being basic doesn't mean the actual physics themselves are basic. I'd like more options in the tuning menu as well like anckerman angle, handbrake strength, per wheel tire pressure, toe & camber adjust-ability & turbo boost tuning & I'd like some more upgrade options too, but everything within the tuning menu we have now works as intended & isn't too far from what it's supposed to do in real life, it's just that Forza tends to label things a bit funky like the Rebound & Bump settings. Yes the physics are vanilla, that's pretty much what I said & I agree, but what Forza does model it models pretty well. Especially when you start diving into the small details in stuff like the developer files. For example I never knew that stock cars in Forza had negative downforce (or generated lift) until I dived into the developer files.

I agree about drafting, it's not 100% broke per say, it does exist & works relatively correctly (though could use some refining) for the driver's car, only the car in front also gets the drafting effect too, almost like your bump drafting even though you're not. So you're gaining speed but not gaining distance on the car ahead. The trigger points are a bit weird though I'll admit.

Opponent distance measured in time also has nothing to do with this debate, though I get why you mentioned it.

Edited by user Friday, April 26, 2019 5:10:01 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#354 Posted : Friday, April 26, 2019 5:32:15 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ChickenWorm4902 Go to Quoted Post
If we wanted a real motorsports simulator we have Assetto Corsa, Project Cars 2, iRacing, Race Room Racing Experience, Dirt Rally, F1 2017, Automobilista, Gran Turismo Sport, rFactor, Live For Speed, the list goes on and on, Forza just needs to be good at being Forza, which right now its failing to do.


Can we not bring the "hey I have other games to fulfill my sim needs" into this discussion? The Forza guys are fully capable of making a proper simulator. Forza does many things right, and I too would love to see a nuanced physics model that actually gives those other "sims" a run for their money.

Forza has turned more arcade with each release. Anybody remember the learning curve in FM5? I hope they work on real-world physics and distinct characteristics for each car. I'm not enjoying the simcade approach either. there are far too many arcade games out there - I'd rather not have Forza join the ranks.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#355 Posted : Friday, April 26, 2019 8:53:57 PM(UTC)
Well I have to say, if it change to sumulator we are losing the best simcade racer, and I won't..
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#356 Posted : Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:42:24 AM(UTC)
Turning FM into a true sim would absolutely destroy the playerbase and the franchise. While I would kind of like it, the majority of players are casuals and they would not buy the game and it would eventually die. Creating penalty systems and ghosting backmarkers is as far as I want to see this go. If you segregate the community with things like SR ratings, it will be as dead as PC2 and GT. By comparison, their playerbases are minut compared to forza. Far less people=less dev money=bye bye motorsport. If they just bring back the clubs, shared garages and fine tune this penalty system, that will be more than enough to make forza near perfect. Essentially a 2020 fm4 with penalties and better graphics. It would be the king of racing games for eternity, except for old school PGR :)

Edited by user Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:44:27 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#357 Posted : Monday, April 29, 2019 6:49:13 AM(UTC)
I really fear that Forza Motorsport loose more and more the DNA that make FM3 and FM4 the best games at their time.
FM5 was a complete desaster, because the series must be a systemseller. Even the decision to cut single player features and outsourcing them to Xbox live was not helpful.
But since FM5 it's was only a marketing phrase to call the game a real simulator. The game is since them a game who have nothing to do with motorsports.
Only to drive the cars on tracks makes a game not a motorsport game. For me project cars have the features that a motorsport game needs.
But unfortunately PC2 was a technical desaster on x1.
To make a real sim Turn 10 must concentrate on 50 cars like IMsa Championship and make a real sim with ESports and if it works the can expand and add other cars like iracing does.
But a real sim with 700 cars is impossible. Because you need different tyres compounds and fuel consumption, pit strategy and so on.
Such a project can't be profitable and only be a showcase what the next gen can do. And maybe then other studios bring their sims to console.
FM and FH could benefit from such a project.
But I fear that Turn 10 have the same problem like BioWare. Ok BioWare have a lot of changes on managment level but their lose their DNA too.
To me turn 10 sit in the same boat. I expect from such a studio that they know what they want and not know which game they will make 1 or 2 years before release.
Make FM as a simcade and make a more motorsport based games with not so many cars. British GT. BTCC. DTM, Super GT their enough series.
But for that it needs courage if a part of turn 10 wants make a real.sim. is t10 in the position to make such a game and get the OK from spencer.
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#358 Posted : Tuesday, April 30, 2019 1:08:25 AM(UTC)
I agree with the OP. Forza Motorsport has become a joke, from the drift-happy physics to the dark and gritty, unrealistic lighting to the absolute lack of enjoyment in multiplayer. We could go on and on and on. It cannot be taken seriously anymore. The Forza Horizon series is now leaps and bounds better, looks better and has a much better style. GT Sport is running circles around Forza in regards of realism, lighting (just look at it!), multiplayer, penalty system, progression system, tracks, race cars, almost everything. Almost every serious racing game captures the essence of "motorsport" much better than Forza. Project CARS 2, F1, Assetto Corsa... It's not just about the physics. It's about the feeling of being on a real track, sitting in a real race car. Forza has absolutely none of this now. Just flashy menus, tons of worthless cars poured together, generic handling and sound, and trendy, cringey marketing deals and silly car packs for virtual Ken Blocks to drift around in. It's become a mess that wants to appeal to everyone yet can't really fulfill anyone's taste, and it's now years behind games like GT Sport or Project CARS regarding racing experience, sessions, options, penalty systems, not to mention dynamic weather and night-day cycles (which FM7 doesn't have really, it's just a glorified set piece).

The desperate pursue of the casual and "all" players has lead to this loss of direction that doesn't really appeal to anyone anymore. I've been an avid Forza Motorsport player ever since 2005 but I've been disappointed. FM6 looked like it could start again in the right direction with more emphasis on serious racing but FM7 became this cringe-fest. Even though it has only the fraction of this content, I'd take the gameplay of GT Sport over this any day. Turn 10's luck in my opinion is that it's not released on Xbox.
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#359 Posted : Wednesday, May 1, 2019 5:49:55 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: karaokefreak Go to Quoted Post
Forza Motorsport 4 sold 4,5 million units and is the most successful game in the franchize. FM 3 sold around 4 million and FM 2 sold 4 million as well. Sales declined with FM 5 at around 2,5 million -. decreasing with every new iteration. Forza 6 did not even pass the 2 million mark. With over 30 Million Xbox ones out there, this is a weak result.


30 mln XB1s, vs. 90 mln X360s. This means that a relatively larger fraction of the Xbox userbase is buying Forza. FM4 also didn't have to face day one competition from the Horizon series, and digital sales (which are usually poorly accounted for on sales statistics) represented a much smaller fraction of the overall figures. Of course, we can speculate all we want and conjecturize all sorts of causal relationships between this and that statistic. But at the end of the day, money speaks, and Microsoft has increased its investment in the Forza brand overall. So I guess they don't consider the current sales figures "weak results".

And to answer OP with my two cents - pretty much nobody but sim fanatics likes real sims. And as somebody already said previously in this topic, those guys number in the few thousands, certainly not in the millions that play Forza now. The simcade approach's been working for Gran Turismo for over twenty years, and you know why? Most people looking into this kind of games want an experience that is realistic enough to be immersive, but not so unforgiving as to require the same skills you'd need in real life to drive a race car. They want a convincing illusion, not a training tool. The next Forza will definitely need to pick up the slack on so many aspects of the game experience, but a complete change of course would be tantamount to suicide for the series.

To the people saying, "FM5 was a better sim": no, it wasn't. It was a harder game, sure, but GT3 cars skidding like they're on ice is not "realism".

And to the people saying, "Forza would be better if it became more like GT Sport", here is a fun afternoon activity for you: jump on GTPlanet and see how many people are saying the exact opposite. Draw your own conclusions on the truthfulness of the old adage, "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence".
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#360 Posted : Wednesday, May 1, 2019 6:57:29 AM(UTC)
Well I don't know what you guys are talking about. According to this hardcore simracer from another thread, it's already the best simulator, with better ffb than AC and PC2!

https://forums.forzamoto...orza-6.aspx#post_1089421

Lol.
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#361 Posted : Wednesday, May 1, 2019 11:26:13 AM(UTC)
After the February update the FFB is total Brocken. The December update was great. But they managed to destroy it in 2 months.
Forza 7 began very promising in my eyes but the game seems to be
now as a testballoon for the next game.
Tracklimits have nothing to do with real motorsports. And when I look to rivals the community didn't take it seriously anymore. Not that they can't drive in the tracklimits.
But why I should drive Sebring with this leaderboard tracklimits.
They really get it to take the last realism away.
To organize now a league is laughable because nobody want to drive in the limits, because they are unrealistic. No race driver drive like that, and so the race regulations are a farce, for players who look for immersion and realism.
It's not understandable why they change the tracklimits complete.
There where some issues like Eau roughe but not the complete tracklimits.
Iracing have not such strict limits. But drift cars are allowed to pass the limits.
So I have loose all hope that the managment of turn 10 follow a strict line. All what left is a fraction of the player base only the casual players are happy or maybe the drift community.
Even they say they listen to the community. But in reality they listen only for a small part. The lost players they want to have back, have left this forum long time ago.
A sim based game was maybe not a profitable project, but it would give Xbox more reputation than 8 FM.
And FM is not profitable too. So a more sim based game with ESports would cost less money than a FM with 800 cars.
I don't say they should not make FM8. But I think a smaller project would help MS much more.
Gran Turismo was in 97 a game nobody think it would work on consoles. So maybe no it's time to show the public that a iracing on console can work.
GT Sport is again a step further. Even it's not a sim. To make again a Forza championship with controllers will not be the best idea.
I really don't know for what turn 10 stands at the moment.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#362 Posted : Thursday, May 2, 2019 1:03:08 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MakeMeLaugh27 Go to Quoted Post
Well I don't know what you guys are talking about. According to this hardcore simracer from another thread, it's already the best simulator, with better ffb than AC and PC2!

https://forums.forzamoto...orza-6.aspx#post_1089421

Lol.





I`ve done car-physic for several "sims" up through the years including AC and I do not find this guy funny at all.

None of the socalled sims are anything close to beeing realistic, none of them can simulate true physics. Take a look at a racevideo from any sim and if you have got the eye for it,
try to watch the cars bodyroll & other movements, their innertia. Then compare this to real racecars, you can see their weight and gravity-center in the cars bodymovement.


Forza is not too bad at sim-mode, even if the later games understeer to much and the tuning-options are reduced to arcade-level in FM7. As said before; Turn10 is going the wrong way by trying to appeal to everyone.
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#363 Posted : Thursday, May 2, 2019 5:28:34 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: unfairlane64 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MakeMeLaugh27 Go to Quoted Post
Well I don't know what you guys are talking about. According to this hardcore simracer from another thread, it's already the best simulator, with better ffb than AC and PC2!

https://forums.forzamoto...orza-6.aspx#post_1089421

Lol.





I`ve done car-physic for several "sims" up through the years including AC and I do not find this guy funny at all.

None of the socalled sims are anything close to beeing realistic, none of them can simulate true physics. Take a look at a racevideo from any sim and if you have got the eye for it,
try to watch the cars bodyroll & other movements, their innertia. Then compare this to real racecars, you can see their weight and gravity-center in the cars bodymovement.


Forza is not too bad at sim-mode, even if the later games understeer to much and the tuning-options are reduced to arcade-level in FM7. As said before; Turn10 is going the wrong way by trying to appeal to everyone.


Obviously no sim is close to being realistic, I think everyone knows that and nobody claimed that.

Forza is good at being a simcade, it's not close at all to ACC, Raceroom, etc at being a sim. [Mod Edit - Abbreviated profanity, profanity and profanity that is disguised but still alludes to the words are not permitted - D] Nowhere in the world that use simulator rigs use Forza, it's always AC, iRacing and etc.

This game physics is fine for what it's, a simcade. If they did the correct approach of GTS it would have been really good, focusing on pure circuit racing with proper track limits, penalties and pit stop strategy, without toys, suvs and drifting. But they didn't, and now it's Forza Horizon without an open world and cosmetics, oh wait, there's cosmetics...

Edited by user Wednesday, June 26, 2019 12:40:16 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#364 Posted : Friday, May 3, 2019 7:49:25 PM(UTC)
If I knew this game was a "simcade", I would never have purchased it and horizon.... Fml.

Judging by the fan Boys, it's sacrilege to talk about a half assed game.

No wonder they didn't release a new game. They know no one would buy it, thus these "updates" to make the game "better".

This is a car game,
With gt cars to drive in an arcade format, there's nothing motorsports about it

Codemasters should do the next forza for Microsoft. F1 2019 WILL BE A 10/10

Edited by user Friday, May 3, 2019 7:51:07 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#365 Posted : Friday, May 3, 2019 9:20:15 PM(UTC)
F1 serie is simcade too mate..
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#366 Posted : Saturday, May 4, 2019 9:33:27 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DylanDrog Go to Quoted Post
F1 serie is simcade too mate..


You're a mentalist if you think F1 is a simcade.
Have you ever had punctures in forza? Or had to manage your fuel and ers system for when you need, or decide on a 2 pit or 1 pit strategy or had to battle ai for tenths of seconds or work hard for a good qualify session just so the constructors championship is in sight? Have you ever had to manage tire wear or had grid penalties because of an upgrade fitted, any of that simulated in Forza "Motorsports"?


Forza's ai just ignore your car entirely and just smash into you.

Forza is a good as this very forum board used to discuss Forza, you start to notice how bad and lazy the package is in no time.

This is one of the slowest to load forums ever... In 2019...
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#367 Posted : Saturday, May 4, 2019 9:47:30 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: septopus7 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: DylanDrog Go to Quoted Post
F1 serie is simcade too mate..


You're a mentalist if you think F1 is a simcade.
Have you ever had punctures in forza? Or had to manage your fuel and ers system for when you need, or decide on a 2 pit or 1 pit strategy or had to battle ai for tenths of seconds or work hard for a good qualify session just so the constructors championship is in sight? Have you ever had to manage tire wear or had grid penalties because of an upgrade fitted, any of that simulated in Forza "Motorsports"?


Forza's ai just ignore your car entirely and just smash into you.

Forza is a good as this very forum board used to discuss Forza, you start to notice how bad and lazy the package is in no time.

This is one of the slowest to load forums ever... In 2019...

F1 2018 is not quite a SIM. What it has over Forza Motorsport 7 are SIM features, like you pointed out, ERS, Fuel Mixture, Damage Model, DRS, etc. However the core driving dynamics aren't a SIM. The cars are too fast compared to their irl counterparts. The cars have this horrible lateral slide dynamic at mid speed corners which should never occur in a high downforce car on slicks. The AI, though better than Forza, are still horrendous. They tire model lacks any deformation or tire flex, though carcass temperature was a huge improvement. The tires don't wear out like they do irl either, they simply aren't as durable. Monaco is a prime example of that. Heck, tire temperature was tied to framerate for a long portion of the game's life cycle. The tracks... Do not even get me started on the tracks... Some of them are simply sad. Take Circuit De Spa for example. The Force Feedback isn't great either.

So is F1 2018 a SIM? No, it is not. It made a big step over F1 2017 though.
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#368 Posted : Saturday, May 4, 2019 6:07:41 PM(UTC)
I've just turned 42 years old and with that enter my 20th year of sim racing.
I could write a book of opinions from every title and almost every piece of hardware released since the late 90's.

I divulge that not to sound arrogant but to give some credo to this old dogs opinion on it all.

You can't have it all, or can you?
The kids want helicopters, pretty skies and confetti while the adults sitting behind their Fanatecs want to feel realism.

Current gen hardware while very good is being pushed hard, there's only so many cores to work with.
We're on the brink of seeing an 8C/16T CPU and 16GB GDDR6 memory next gen consoles should the rumors prove true.

Turn 10 must put that Zen 2 processor to good use and improve the physics/tire model. Period.

I enjoy the great graphics in FM7 and think it looks fantastic but the Forza Motorsport brand needs to get serious.
Decembers FFB update was a very good start and I hope an indicator that it's slowly being pulled in the more sim less cade direction.
We know the market dictates the next Motorsport has to run 4k@60fps and work on a pad but dedicate 2 cores to physics, focus on the drive.
If it doesn't feel correct there's no point in having driver swaps, engine failing yellow flags or a competitive multiplayer system.

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#369 Posted : Sunday, May 5, 2019 3:16:22 AM(UTC)
They need to do something different instead of releasing the same old thing every time, which happens to be a racing game that doesn't know what it wants to be. To me the FM series should be more of a sim since they already have FH4 as an arcade racer. But MS doesn't seem particularly interested in having a game that could be on the same level of Pcars, ACC or even GTS despite of this.

Modern FM games remind me of the PS3 era of Gran Turismo, to sum it up in one word I'd call them scatterbrained. No real concentration on one thing, just trying to appeal to the masses instead of focusing on what matters. This is why I have moved on from this game.

Edited by user Sunday, May 5, 2019 3:23:06 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#370 Posted : Sunday, May 5, 2019 12:06:08 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: o Mike V o Go to Quoted Post
They need to do something different instead of releasing the same old thing every time, which happens to be a racing game that doesn't know what it wants to be. To me the FM series should be more of a sim since they already have FH4 as an arcade racer. But MS doesn't seem particularly interested in having a game that could be on the same level of Pcars, ACC or even GTS despite of this.

Modern FM games remind me of the PS3 era of Gran Turismo, to sum it up in one word I'd call them scatterbrained. No real concentration on one thing, just trying to appeal to the masses instead of focusing on what matters. This is why I have moved on from this game.



You're absolutely right.

This was a gamble and they know it.

They went the route of adding trucks, taxis, and other bloatware taking down the value of the game simply because they thought the next grand turismo was also going to be full of fluff. They bit Sony 's bluff and now they just have a arcade racer while Sony seems to have created a new canvas with gt sport.

However, Sony veered hard toward the simulation arena, and the Microsoft execs and developers had no choice but to keep pushing FM7 otherwise they'd just be copying gt. As a result they can't just abandon all the work they did with the fluff they added, hence why no new releases.

Mark my words, this will be the last FM branded as a numbered game. 2020 we will see a new intro to FM leaning on the simulation side whilst they converge the old data from FM7 to a new horizon game.

Microsoft always fumbles in the quarter finals... Never actually gets a leg up even when they have an opportune moment.
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#371 Posted : Tuesday, April 27, 2021 4:27:24 PM(UTC)
[/quote]


Mark my words, this will be the last FM branded as a numbered game. 2020 we will see a new intro to FM leaning on the simulation side whilst they converge the old data from FM7 to a new horizon game.

[/quote]

What foresight!

Everything else said was on point, as well.
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#372 Posted : Wednesday, April 28, 2021 12:29:09 PM(UTC)
No thanks I would prefer for this to stay a simcade. When I don't feel like using my wheel I can just play forza and it should stay that way.
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