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#326 Posted : Wednesday, February 28, 2018 3:32:57 AM(UTC)
May as well respond to the OP first if I'm going to post in this thread:

Originally Posted by: karaokefreak Go to Quoted Post
See, Forza Horizon satisfies the arcade gamers, and as far as I can tell, it has been accepted by a lot of people as a fun derivative of the Forza franchise. So there is no need for another arcady or semi arcady Forza entry.


For what it's worth the Horizon series is more popular than Motorsport at the moment. It's no longer considered a "spinoff" but in my opinion is an equal.

That would explain why Motorsport has been (according to some) "dumbing itself down" in order to appeal to a wider audience.

Also, if you're going to create an argument based on arcade vs simulation, you should probably share your definition of what "arcade driving" really is, though considering the fact you posted this thread 4 months ago you're probably not even going to see this reply.


Originally Posted by: karaokefreak Go to Quoted Post
So: why not gain real respect again with the core audience of sim racers by making Forza Motorsport 8 a real sim (again, like the very first one and probably FM2 as well) ?


What makes you think that "pure simulation" will make the series more popular?

Looking at Achievement stats (and yes, I know it's not a great metric but it's the only one I've got with hard data):



One could assume that players who prefer "simulation" are generally more experienced/skilled than those that want an "arcade" experience. Based on those numbers alone I'd suspect that the "simulation audience" is in the minority and considering the popularity of other, more serious racing games on Xbox (or relative lack thereof) I don't see that number increasing if more "simulation"-related aspects were added to a Forza title. If anything it could begin to alienate the casual audience, which right now is what's keeping Forza Motorsport titles afloat.



Originally Posted by: karaokefreak Go to Quoted Post
Meaning. Real handling, real difficulty, real physics. Forza 7 is getting good ratings, but they don't sell the game, because the sim communities tell the casuals to stay away from the game, since it is "too arcady" in their eyes.


There are a number of reasons why some people don't recommend Forza Motorsport 7 to prospective players, let's not pin it all down to "simulation value".

For me the driving is fine and I'd recommend this game as a great Single Player or automotive sandbox title, but its Multiplayer featureset and philosophy pales in comparison to Gran Turismo Sport which is why I don't recommend it to people who are looking for that specific experience.



Originally Posted by: karaokefreak Go to Quoted Post
The FIA approval of GT Sports alone is giving that game so much credibility that everybody and his dog wants to have it.


Doubtful. It may help with some communities but in general the Gran Turismo name has huge brand loyalty and PlayStation hasn't had a leading first-party racing title since 2013 (Gran Turismo 6 on PlayStation 3). People on that console are starved for a proper racing experience and while Gran Turismo Sport is more of a Multiplayer title it does tick the boxes for a lot of people.


Originally Posted by: karaokefreak Go to Quoted Post
But i really like that you will be punished for using shortcuts and that it has a rating system for fair driving like iRacing does.

These are great features, and I'd like every racing game to implement them. That's more of a Multiplayer philosophy question though than one about simulation and physics.


Originally Posted by: karaokefreak Go to Quoted Post
ANd GT is used by the GT Academy in order to train real race drivers.

It's used by GT Academy because the GT in that programme stands for Gran Turismo. While the programme does have its benefits and has served as a great entry point to professional motorsport for some people, let's not pretend that it wasn't primarily developed as a marketing initiative just like esports is for so many games right now.

On a related note, here's a recent quote from Dan Greenawalt:

Quote:
"I think it's a mistake for us to mirror real-world racing. Because at the end of the day, real-world racing has somebody's life on the line," Greenwalt said.

For Greenawalt, he feels there are some unique advantages in the simulation world, ones that he thinks traditional racing fans could find novel.

"The most fertile ground is not to be looking at what's impossible, but what's impractical," Greenawalt said. While it's possible for the simulation to work on Pluto or the moon, that's taking it too far for the Forza team.

"When you start getting into track design, you start getting into a really interesting place. Where it's plausible, real physics, it could happen on earth. If you had trillions of dollars and the will, you could go build it. But you never would because it's impractical. That's the space where I think we get into something really interesting," Greenawalt said.




Originally Posted by: karaokefreak Go to Quoted Post
For the longest time, Forza was among my favourite racing franchises- for several reasons - but you can't deny that the handling is getting more and more casual, even if you turn all settings to "simulation".

It is getting easier, yes. That being said for some (myself included) it's more fun to drive.

Forza has changed and needs mass-market appeal to survive. You don't get that by releasing a hardcore simulator. If you're after that experience above all else then there are a number of alternate racing games available to you. If enough people join you and one of those simulators becomes a runaway success, that may convince the people at Forza to add more of the features you desire; a forum thread simply isn't going to cut it no matter how many replies it gets.






Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
If only turn 10 would allow us to see the back side of things so we could truly see how factual the physics are.

The quotes from a former Turn 10 developer (linked earlier in the thread) are the closest you're going to get.



https://rennlist.com/for...accurate-ring-times.html

Quote:
I used to work at Turn 10 Studios, the maker of Forza series... I'm credited in Motorsport 6, Horizon 3, and Motorsport 7, although my involvement with 7 was minimal before I moved on and I was surprised to see my name on it.

We made the physics as realistic as possible within our limitations... I guess you could consider us "pro" players since it was our job, but typically we tweaked the models to get very close to published/known lap times when available. Then as the product went through testing, some were tamed down and made easier to handle by the average and beginner players. If you take off the majority of the assists and set the steering to simulation, you can get really close to realistic physics, but you'll need a wheel/pedal setup. Simulation steering with a game pad is difficult.

As for the physics in Horizon series, we build the cars and send them to the publisher of the game (playground in the UK) and they completely change the base physics model which in turn alters the car behavior and makes it much more arcade-y. A lot more grip, more downforce, downforce that actually seems to be controlled by throttle. Over in the motorsport group, we always got a chuckle out of how playground made our cars drive.


Quote:
With the 918, I can consistently get below 7, but not by much.. Never better than a low 6:59. There was another guy working on it that hit 6:57... It could be driving or the lines taken. 7:25 in a stock 991TT? That's extremely quick. I think I was in the 7:37s-7:40 range. As far as steering... the model that the physics engine ran has limitations we couldn't always design around, specifically with AWD cars all feel somewhat heavy and tendency to push. Combine that with the overall weight of the car, I think it is the heaviest of the hybrid trio there's only so much the game can do...

Some designers sorta let the physics engine do as it will and automatically build a car and then just test it for obvious defects, others would do a lot of research into how the cars should drive and manually code it to get as close as possible, so it could be not a lot of effort into it, or hit the wall with what could be done. Disc space can be a limiting factor with physics sometimes... It's always more content, more physics, or better graphics and as of the iterations I worked on, graphics had priority, then content, then physics.

The LaFerrari is very overpowered/underweight/too much aero grip/not enough drag in FM6. When manufacturers provide specs, we have to use what is given to meet licensing purposes and as you know Ferrari plays loose with their specs..


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As far as the P1, it was fairly accurate since that was a cover car in FM5 (I think it was 5...). There is a P1 in the lobby of the studio, it's the display model that McLaren premiered with at auto shows.. A big issue with the hybrid cars is the power delivery of the electric motor, and the physics engine couldn't support electric engines/instant torque, so one of the devs went in and manually mapped the powerband for the P1 in 50 rpm increments to simulate the electric boost, but it still wasn't as responsive as it should be due to how the system ingests turbo powerplants, and for how the throttle response of the electric boosted cars should be. This was done with the 918 as well if I remember correctly, but still had the throttle response limitations. I learned things about P1 that were super cool from my time there, unfortunately I believe I'm under NDA for a lot of it.

Obviously, the cover cars tend to get a lot of attention from many people and directors, much more than any other cars in the game, so it wouldn't surprise me for the GT2RS to be close to real world performance... although I couldn't match the ring time yet, or even really come close, right around 7 min mark on my first lap and haven't tried again.


Quote:

Sometimes manufacturers wouldn't give us spec sheets, so we had to seek out the data on our own.. Lot of digging and researching; sometimes we had to just design to what we think the performance should be especially with some of the racing cars. Art and physics are separate for the most part, art models the body of the car and the wheel appearance, then physics gets the art model and merges it with the body.

Some people did just sorta plug and go with the data that the physics engine spit out, adjust the acceleration/top speed then let the car go without addressing some issues. See the 930 turbo for example... not driving how you would think... Then go drive the RS 4.0 and it's almost magic, like you'd expect a car of that caliber to be.


Quote:
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When you play test against things like iRacing and such to compare models, where were are the limitation in the Forza modeling?

Is it the limitation of that hardware of the console or more of a balance between full on sim but also allowing a broader audience to enjoy the game?

I enjoy the Forza series but one of the things I always notice the tire load had minimal impact on grip . What I mean is as you load up a car into a corner and let the weight settle, you don't get more grip so you're better of driving with an aggressive turn-in as there is no penalty. Your thoughts?


The limitation is in the computing power of the console, and disk space to an extent/faster load times, but there is some mass audience appeal involved. It's hard to compare to iRacing since it isn't console based, although there is some comparison, it isn't really the benchmark.. but Assetto Corsa is on console now and has much better physics at the sake of polished graphics and it is pretty difficult with controller. If there was more competition on console, it would push things further, but the studio doesn't take the other driving sims on console seriously aside from GT which hasn't released anything in many years.

As I mentioned earlier, graphics and car count/content were the priorities, and physics was behind those on the list. The desire was to make the game where anyone can pick up the controller and turn laps, obviously will sell more games if it isn't too difficult... Some of us fought HARD to make it more realistic/simulator or have an option for it and if someone can't drive it then turn on the assists and try again.... Didn't quite fly. It's more of a sim than Horizon games, but it isn't where I'd like it to be. A lot of the current middle management was hired from EA/Need for Speed studio, so that says something about the direction the execs were taking. It seems to work and as the head of the studio drives a brand new Ford GT these days. Traded simulation and catering to enthusiasts to a mass audience and piles of money.

I know exactly what you mean about tire loading. You're right on what is happening. We couldn't do it like we wanted with what was available. Tire load is downforce dependent more than anything else. FM7 might be different, I haven't watched the parameters when driving, but I'll check it out.


Quote:
Quote:
Talking between friends, I pointed out how the marketing focus on the Forza mainline games hasn't been about sim but more about graphics, weather, number of cars for a few games now. Back around Forza 3-4 timeframe, it was all about getting some racers and sim guys trying to validate the game.

I find the weather implementation in games to be poor anyhow and seems very much a simple concept of reduced grip % but people go nuts over it...so what can you do. I personally turn it off where possible.


You're spot on with your assessment of when things changed. Internally, FM4 is the holy grail among the car guys in the studio. Things changed after that....

Yeah the weather is kinda gimmicky IMO, at least the physics part of it. You're not far off how the grip algorithm is ran, unless it was significantly changed in FM7 but in driving it doesn't feel much different. The graphics look nice enough I suppose, which was the priority. The realism of the clouds and how the clouds move and are on a random cycle instead of repeating loop of same formations was the talking point in so many of the monthly meetings. Yes it looks great, but really who looks at the sky when racing, this isn't stop and smell the roses.. My opinion didn't matter I also wish they'd budget more dev hours for rebuilding the AI....

In the end, the guys running the show are nice guys, genuine car guys at the core, but somewhere along the line it seems the enthusiasm for the cars has changed into enthusiasm for money.

We did have some NASCAR guys come in to play the game when the NASCAR expansion came out for FM6 and they all loved it, but NASCAR isn't the reason most people play the game...


Quote:
I've never driven the ring IRL. Driving tracks on games vs driving them in real life is never quite the same. Very hard to compare.. The tracks I have been on and drive in game always look very close visually, but not quite there with the feel of the car on the track and where you place it; it's almost as if the cars are too narrow for the track in the driving feel, but it looks close visually.


Some interesting comments there, and since this person actually worked on the games I consider these posts somewhat more relevant than the majority of this thread. That being said this thread has also been a somewhat interesting (if somewhat pointless in the grand scheme of things) read, we don't see many discussions of the sort here anymore. I would like to see more testing/analysis in these posts however, as I really like seeing people dig into game mechanics to find out some things.

Edited by user Wednesday, February 28, 2018 4:06:18 AM(UTC)  | Reason: .

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#327 Posted : Wednesday, February 28, 2018 5:51:49 AM(UTC)
There's plenty of areas that I wish Forza would tighten up, but after reading what PJTierney just posted, I seriously doubt the series will "make it more sim". It would take Assetto Corsa becoming the racing title to have on every platform, for the team at Turn 10 to even consider prioritizing simulation. As much as I love AC and wish ACC turns heads, that's probably never going to happen.

Edited by user Wednesday, February 28, 2018 5:52:47 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Time to hit the road.

Take care!
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#328 Posted : Wednesday, February 28, 2018 6:37:24 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Wilko Jones Go to Quoted Post
There's plenty of areas that I wish Forza would tighten up, but after reading what PJTierney just posted, I seriously doubt the series will "make it more sim". It would take Assetto Corsa becoming the racing title to have on every platform, for the team at Turn 10 to even consider prioritizing simulation. As much as I love AC and wish ACC turns heads, that's probably never going to happen.


It wouldn't sell nearly as much unfortunately. When the top reviewing websites get their hands on a game like AC, it's always "it's too hard, don't try it with controller, casual players will be disappointed", and thus it sells less.

Forza Motorsport is a victim of its own success. The fact it has become one of Microsoft's major first-party titles has made it necessary for it to sell lots of copies, which means it needs to be as accessible as possible. Add to that the fact it's usually bundled with the console and you can't just tell a prospective Forza Motorsport player to "go buy a wheel" to experience the game at its fullest.

What the interviewee said about the GT2 RS is true. It's the cover car and it handles very believably like a Porsche 911 should in comparison with many rival games. But there was a sizable amount of people who tried the demo and complained that the car was somehow "too difficult" to drive. Well... 911s are difficult!

Notice how even SMS does not push that far into the sim camp with their title. And, with their car list increasing in numbers, they have begun to pay more attention to certain cars than others... I've seen people speaking of "premium cars" in PC2 the same way as in Forza, or Gran Turismo. Furthermore, SMS does their fair share of corner-cutting when it comes to physics data... The files of PC1 had been unlocked and, though obfuscated, some people were able to read them...
May the forced induction be with you.

Alice >>>>>>>>>> Keira
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#329 Posted : Wednesday, February 28, 2018 10:30:48 AM(UTC)
Deleted

Edited by user Wednesday, February 28, 2018 10:32:07 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#330 Posted : Thursday, March 1, 2018 3:41:12 AM(UTC)
Honestly i would be more than happy with a fully fledged sim game that has around 100 relevant and accurately represented road cars and race cars instead of 700 copy/pastes. Perhaps a new lighting engine although not a deal breaker and a more competitive multiplayer. Maybe 25 Tuner cars, 25 super cars and 50 proper race cars that are a mix of current and retro models. throw in about 15-20 Authentic race tracks with day/night cycles and NAIL the sounds i want to hear all the DCT bangs, off throttle sounds and crackles as well as chassis squeaks gearbox whine(For the racecars) etc.

I no longer play Forza Motorsport as it no longer satisfies my needs and do not own FM7 however i still very much enjoy Horizon particularly 1 and 3. Assetto Corsa is my go to track game now and it is x100 better even though it has far less cars/tracks and inferior graphics. I have bought every single DLC for the game and will not hesitate to do so in the future.

So Turn 10... care to win me back?

Edited by user Thursday, March 1, 2018 3:45:35 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#331 Posted : Thursday, March 1, 2018 4:01:23 AM(UTC)
I doubt it. For every potential customer that wants a full on sim there are probably twenty that don’t.

It’s the minority of people have the time, inclination or interest to spend countless hours tinkering with or calculating tunes, investing in and setting up a racing rig and are prepared to put quite a lot of time into practice and qualifying just to do one race.

For those wanting a sim, Forza hasn’t really changed, they have.

Having said that, there is still plenty of scope to ramp up the more serious side of racing whilst still retaining the accessibility of the game.

Edited by user Thursday, March 1, 2018 5:15:18 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#332 Posted : Tuesday, March 6, 2018 6:55:03 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PJTierney Go to Quoted Post
May as well respond to the OP first if I'm going to post in this thread:
...
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
If only turn 10 would allow us to see the back side of things so we could truly see how factual the physics are.

The quotes from a former Turn 10 developer (linked earlier in the thread) are the closest you're going to get.

https://rennlist.com/for...accurate-ring-times.html

Quote:
I used to work at Turn 10 Studios, the maker of Forza series... I'm credited in Motorsport 6, Horizon 3, and Motorsport 7, although my involvement with 7 was minimal before I moved on and I was surprised to see my name on it.
...


I was waiting for all the "Forza is pure arcade physics - that guy doesn't know what he's talking about" replies.

Wonder what happened?

.
Mod edit - WSD - max 1 line of text with sig --- Please don't use your sig to attack other forum members - Duey
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#333 Posted : Wednesday, March 7, 2018 12:04:03 PM(UTC)
[quote=VolusiaF5;882185]Since the thread title has changed to a request, can a mod dump this whole thread with all the rest of the whiny poo posts in the features wishlist thread?
Asking for sim physics is basically a feature he wishes for so I see no reason why it should have its own thread.[/quot
So you don't like the content of the thread so you're asking to dump the whole thing? How about replacing it with "Everything is perfect and rosey" thread of your own.

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#334 Posted : Wednesday, March 7, 2018 2:05:33 PM(UTC)
I was fiddling with the Bugatti Type 35 C the other day.

Stock with around 90bhp.

Homologated around 330bhp, racing coilovers, stiffened chassis, wider tires.

And people still pursue "realism" in Forza Motorsport. :D
May the forced induction be with you.

Alice >>>>>>>>>> Keira
Rank: Driver's License
#335 Posted : Wednesday, March 7, 2018 4:30:38 PM(UTC)
Yes, let's just make Forza into a soulless experience like Asetto Corsa or Project Cars. No thanks.
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#336 Posted : Wednesday, March 7, 2018 6:47:02 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: KyoshiiTheBrony Go to Quoted Post
Yes, let's just make Forza into a soulless experience like Asetto Corsa or Project Cars. No thanks.


There's a word from Jeremy Clarkson I use to define Assetto Corsa: dreary.

Project CARS is a lot better in this regard but the reason why is the menu music. The engine sounds of the cars very rarely help their cause. The new Porsche pack is pretty bad when it comes to sounds for example, all the cars I've seen in videos (Carrera GT, 911 Carrera RSR, 991 RSR) sound better in Forza 7 than in Project CARS 2.
May the forced induction be with you.

Alice >>>>>>>>>> Keira
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#337 Posted : Thursday, March 8, 2018 2:46:10 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NeoDragonaut Go to Quoted Post
The engine sounds of the cars very rarely help their cause. The new Porsche pack is pretty bad when it comes to sounds for example, all the cars I've seen in videos (Carrera GT, 911 Carrera RSR, 991 RSR) sound better in Forza 7 than in Project CARS 2.


Have the 911 RSR's sounds been updated since this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99lZcxfwTNc&feature=youtu.be
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#338 Posted : Thursday, March 8, 2018 3:28:54 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Dadiodude Go to Quoted Post
Having said that, there is still plenty of scope to ramp up the more serious side of racing whilst still retaining the accessibility of the game.


+1 to that, I don't really care if they go full sim or not, I'd just like to see a few extra options here and there.
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#339 Posted : Thursday, March 8, 2018 7:43:39 AM(UTC)
Forza is a simulation of driving a car around a race track.

If you believe that it's an arcade game, I challenge you to go to an actual arcade and play a real arcade game.

Maybe Forza doesn't sweat some of the finer details to the same degree as Project Cars, Assetto Corsa, or iRacing, but if I wanted that experience I'd get one of those titles.

Forza needs to be tightened up in a lot of ways, but at it's core it's an amazing title that no longer has a competitor since GT got all serious. Forza needs to stay Forza, it just needs to be better at being what it is.

Edited by user Thursday, March 8, 2018 7:45:31 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Stupid phone

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#340 Posted : Thursday, March 8, 2018 8:07:51 AM(UTC)
I'm very happy with Turn 10's simcade approach of the Forza Motorsport franchise. It's good for me to have a break sometimes from the serious iRacing or Project CARS 2 racing and just play around and slide around a track a bit for fun. Also, the simcade approach is what made Forza popular. If you want it to be a full sim, it will be a lot less popular, meaning Turn 10 won't get as much money from it, meaning we will lose a lot of cars and tracks from the game. There is a lot wrong with Forza 7, but the physics ain't it.
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#341 Posted : Thursday, March 8, 2018 8:24:32 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: GeneralGarric69 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NeoDragonaut Go to Quoted Post
The engine sounds of the cars very rarely help their cause. The new Porsche pack is pretty bad when it comes to sounds for example, all the cars I've seen in videos (Carrera GT, 911 Carrera RSR, 991 RSR) sound better in Forza 7 than in Project CARS 2.


Have the 911 RSR's sounds been updated since this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99lZcxfwTNc&feature=youtu.be


I drove the 991 RSR in Forza 7 during the Phil Spencer Bounty Hunter challenge. 1:1 the real thing.

In PC2 it sounds very weird and sometimes doesn't even resemble a 911.
May the forced induction be with you.

Alice >>>>>>>>>> Keira
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#342 Posted : Thursday, March 8, 2018 9:06:07 AM(UTC)
I feel like Forza needs to step up its game in terms of car models ingame. While the cars in Forza Vista mode look great and i don't of course expect this level of detail while racing, Project Cars and Assetto Corsa to me have the better looking car models. Also for some reason FM7's cars tend to look a bit matte which looks unrealistic. Maybe to save resources on consoles? But then why do my cars on PC look matte too?
Another thing where the Motorspor series needs to step up are the trees and overall foliage. Games like GT Sport and Project Cars 2 use this technique of having 3D trunks with layers of foliage that rotate towards you while you drive. To be honest, i find this looks really good and is at least better than the X-foliage we have currently in FM7.
And the lighting engine needs a step up, FH3 runs on the same engine but for some reason their lighting looks much better. Light sources pop more, brake lights, taillights etc. The whole game has more contrast to it whereas Motorsport feels always a bit pale and dim.

Edited by user Thursday, March 8, 2018 9:09:02 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#343 Posted : Wednesday, April 17, 2019 1:09:32 AM(UTC)
I love GT Sport. and think it as a half sim racing game. But sadlly forza is not even close which is much way to sim. So since I played so much series of Forza, I got hate it a little. Hope this series could be much sim like. And keep all this fantasy cars which GT sport couldn't have.
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#344 Posted : Thursday, April 18, 2019 2:07:34 AM(UTC)
As I have posted in other topic areas Turn 10 needs to get rid of the extra fluff and then use the extra gaming program space to improve Forza. Areas like Graphics, AI, Driving Dynamics, Engine Sounds, etc (as the list of improvements can be as long as the list of what Turn 10 can get rid of from Forza Motorsport (the fluff that is not needed In my opinion). Through recent updates the game is coming along, and has a ways to go. I have GT Sport, F1 2018, NASCAR Heat 3, Project Cars and see many improvements for each one I believe Turn 10 needs to read/listen to the comments to do their comparison study and then make improvements

Edited by user Sunday, April 21, 2019 5:12:24 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#345 Posted : Sunday, April 21, 2019 4:05:25 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ChickenWorm4902 Go to Quoted Post
If we wanted a real motorsports simulator we have [list], Forza just needs to be good at being Forza, which right now its failing to do.

Originally Posted by: Northern Dan Go to Quoted Post
If you want a simulator, get a PC, because the xbox can't do it as good. ...Forza has always been a "pick up and play" kind of game and should always be. Cheap and cheerful, easy to play, and not too serious.

Originally Posted by: David McKenna Go to Quoted Post
i like Forza the way it is, once it becomes full on sim, where using a controller is futile, i shall have to stop. i cannot get the hang of Project Cars or Assetto Corsa with a controller. I want a game that is pick up and play...not spending hours trying all different settings to get the car to drive in a straight line.

Originally Posted by: JDMRTakumi Go to Quoted Post
There is a whole issue with get rid of simcade
Games like gt and fm are designed to be played on a console and controller first. That is what simcade IS
So by saying get rid of it. Means giving a not so good message to the older fans who will only use a controller
It also means losing some abilties forza is known for like its driveline and motorswaps

Simcade, in this argument, is a cop-out--"We couldn't make it work comfortably as a sim." Nothing about being a better sim implies it should also be more difficult, nor lose the QoL features such as rewind.

Originally Posted by: JSHuiting Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GeneralGarric69 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PJTierney Go to Quoted Post
Forza is in the business of making money.

That sentence perfectly describes the Forza series now.

Yeah unlike all those developers who work for free and despise profit.

The majority of creative direction in AAA games come from a minority of involved staff. Even the leading development staff may bow to higher executive decisions...

Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
From just skimming through the thread, I don't think I've found anyone discussing, in my opinion, the quite blaring reason why Forza won't ever take a full on SIM approach. Forza 7 has 700+ cars. They aren't going to be able to accurately simulate 700+ cars. They'll have to do what GT did with GT Sport and cut down to around 100-200 cars and like GT Sport that wouldn't go down well.

It's an overhaul that has to happen if they want to stay relevant let alone a top contender.

Originally Posted by: Engineer VII Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MEDIC 1 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: llE mc2 Go to Quoted Post
the only real thing holding forza back from being a full sim is the steering, its too assisted for the analog stick to the point of being fake, and yes im talking about "simulation" steering with the controller which is what i use.
you dont have to think or worry about how much steering input to put into the wheel, just move the stick all the way left or right and the car will have a baked-in amount of steering every time.
the generic 180 degree steering wheel animation in cockpit view does not help either, so fake.


Lol,thats the only thing? I truly dont think you understand what a sim is... its not just the steering in this game. The game as a whole is arcade,every aspect.


well considering i play Assetto Corsa almost every day for 10 months now, i would say i do understand what a sim is.
forza's physics simulation is actually very good, its just ruined by the steering, fix that and you take forza to the next level.


More or less agreed. I do question the accuracy of FM7s physics at times particularly during slides.
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#346 Posted : Monday, April 22, 2019 10:00:59 PM(UTC)
honestly think this would be a terrible idea, Forza is Forza, changing the DNA won’t increase the player base, if anything will make it worse, though I do think adding things like qualifying, actual night and day cycles and a more robust driver rating system will massively improve the game across all aspects. I’ve tried to play project cars 2 many times since it came out and honestly it’s complete trash, unless you can buy high end kit the game simply isn’t a good enough product. With Forza you turn the game on and you can race, I can race with my mates of all skill levels and have a competitive and fun time, there’s no point in going full sim to accommodate the snobs and completely wrecking the fabric of what makes Forza, Forza
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#347 Posted : Wednesday, April 24, 2019 6:40:48 AM(UTC)
This discussion is on going and will never get resolved. Forza is a happy medium between arcade and sim and a great pick up and race game. This will never lean towards more sim because quite honestly most can’t drive a real sim with a controller and making Forza more sim will lose customers and the complaints will rise more. Qualifying would be nice for league races and they need to add day/night times with variable weather which can be done.

I’ve played pcars2 and it’s a nightmare with the controller for most cars and that’s as much sim that you’re gonna get as well as AC. And how many people do you see on those???? Not many. I also have pcars2 on the pc with the whole setup and the game is made for wheels hands down. So everyone asking for more sim will be more disappointed, now more features is a different story but Forza is getting better now from what it was. If you want a good description of why more sim isn’t a good idea look at the hardcore LBs, hardly anyone runs with no assists and that’s the most sim you’ll get in Forza.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#348 Posted : Wednesday, April 24, 2019 4:55:37 PM(UTC)
It seems that Forza Motorsport is going to continue to walk the line between the casual and hard core racer, and after 7 games; 3 of which seemed to get further from what I'm looking for, I'm just going to move on. I wanted Forza to become more serious as a racing title, because I really enjoyed the franchise. But now Turn 10 could do what ever they want. Make a game where you have no control of the cars, for all I care.
Time to hit the road.

Take care!
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#349 Posted : Wednesday, April 24, 2019 5:31:31 PM(UTC)
Forza's base physics are actually quite good. It has a decent suspension model, great tyre flex & deformation model, good Force Feedback for wheels & is second to none on a controller, I could go on & on, but I'll re-iterate again, how are you going to accurately simulate 800 cars? Especially when every car also has tuning & a very extensive upgrade system? The short is, unless you purge the car count & spend days refining each car to get as close as it can to its real life counterpart, you can't. All you'll get by doing this is a huge community backlash akin to Foza Motorsport 5, where we had a fistful of tracks, just 200 cars & pretty much no features compared to both Forza Motorsport 4 or what we have now in Forza Motorsport .

If you want Forza Motorsport to become more of a SIM, you don't need to revolutionize the physics system or strip down the car count & start again. What they need to do is add small details & refine certain existing aspects. Stuff like DRS, KERS, KERS & Hybrid modes will go a long way. Different tyre compounds, qualifying, more tuning options, brake fade & maybe more damage options. Actually simulating stuff like active aero. The new collision system is a very good start to this.

In short, it has an extremely good base to work on. All it needs is refining.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#350 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2019 11:28:47 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Forza's base physics are actually quite good. It has a decent suspension model, great tyre flex & deformation model, good Force Feedback for wheels & is second to none on a controller, I could go on & on, but I'll re-iterate again, how are you going to accurately simulate 800 cars? Especially when every car also has tuning & a very extensive upgrade system? The short is, unless you purge the car count & spend days refining each car to get as close as it can to its real life counterpart, you can't. All you'll get by doing this is a huge community backlash akin to Foza Motorsport 5, where we had a fistful of tracks, just 200 cars & pretty much no features compared to both Forza Motorsport 4 or what we have now in Forza Motorsport .

If you want Forza Motorsport to become more of a SIM, you don't need to revolutionize the physics system or strip down the car count & start again. What they need to do is add small details & refine certain existing aspects. Stuff like DRS, KERS, KERS & Hybrid modes will go a long way. Different tyre compounds, qualifying, more tuning options, brake fade & maybe more damage options. Actually simulating stuff like active aero. The new collision system is a very good start to this.

In short, it has an extremely good base to work on. All it needs is refining.


Really? Based on the tuning menus I call the physics about as close to vanilla as they can be. They work and as far as saying you are driving a car it works however everything in this game is boilerplate, and a push towards sim is never going to happen. Regarding getting active aero to work, how about just making aero/draft work in general nevermind active aero. Cant even get opponent distance measured in time.... nevermind the rest of the dreams.


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