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#301 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 8:38:28 AM(UTC)
If you don't see the difference between your thread and this one unless i post videos or pics then i really don't know how to explain you..

Edited by user Monday, February 26, 2018 8:43:20 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#302 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 8:48:21 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DylanDrog Go to Quoted Post
So now people want a simulator or just you and few other?


I can't speak for others. I wanted forza to continue down the sim path, it failed me, which is the reason the majority of my posts are complaining and pointing this out and that I have moved on to other titles only keeping an eye on forza in hopes it's path is changed back to something I can enjoy. This is also the reason for many of the other people who complain who have been around this franchise for a decade or greater now. I can however say that there is proof that motorsport is not the game most people want. This is proven biannually as the forza horizon series continues to outsell the motorsport series and the motorsport series sales decline with every release since fm3....

There are however 3 conclusions i can draw from this:
1. people dont care about sim and would rather have even less sim features in motorsport,.
2. There are not enough sim features in motorsport to differentiate it from horizon so it is not worth buying both
3. The majority of people dont care about track racing.

All in all something has to change because I don't think that anyone at t10 believes that selling <1 Million copies is acceptable, especially when there are sims (a very niche category) probably equaling them in revenue due to the billing structure even though they sell less "copies"

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#303 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 9:28:04 AM(UTC)
@PTG Baby Cow
I give you an option number 4 : since simulators are a niche products, you can see yourself with the sales charts and there are enough and good on the market, the majority buy Forza motorsport because they are looking for a simcade.
Simcade doesn't mean bad racing game infact i think FM7 is a really good racing game and also the racing game of the year as critics stated.
I am not looking for a simulator, i am looking for a good racing experience after i played for years boring simulators and i bought FM7.
Forza don't sell as many as it did when X360 was the most played console because of the bad campaign they did with xbox one and the dominance of the playstation but luckly things are changing.
This is just my opinion.

Edited by user Monday, February 26, 2018 9:29:11 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#304 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 12:13:13 PM(UTC)

AI behavior is not physics, in fact most of the stuff being discussed here isnt physics either, it's gameplay.

As far as sales go, the more "simulation" the game is the worse the sales. Asseto Corsa, PCars and the rest sell abysmally on the Xbox and only get by because of the PS4 and PC sales. Forza has been #1 since FM3 and only recently has Horizon 3 taken over, although who knows how much of that is because of the free pack-in. FM have been tops for years and they arent going to go in direction the market tells them not to go in - simulation.
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#305 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 12:15:05 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DylanDrog Go to Quoted Post
@PTG Baby Cow
I give you an option number 4 : since simulators are a niche products, you can see yourself with the sales charts and there are enough and good on the market, the majority buy Forza motorsport because they are looking for a simcade.
Simcade doesn't mean bad racing game infact i think FM7 is a really good racing game and also the racing game of the year as critics stated.
I am not looking for a simulator, i am looking for a good racing experience after i played for years boring simulators and i bought FM7.
Forza don't sell as many as it did when X360 was the most played console because of the bad campaign they did with xbox one and the dominance of the playstation but luckly things are changing.
This is just my opinion.


I am doubtful of this. Like myself and many others when they started, they didnt realize there were other options. Especially with a large focus on being inclusive its more likely that most are ignorant that there are much better options when it comes to racing sims. With that said there are plenty like yourself that don't have the room for a wheel etc and do settle with forza.

As I said previously Forza does a lot of things really well and simcade does not directly mean bad racing, in this case though I am going to disagree that forza is a good racing game. Forza is a good car game with racing involved but it leaves tons to be desired in terms of racing. I pretty much always played it as a hotlapping game and until the exclusion of rivals and the hiding of leaderboards (which with the release of fm5 I predicted).

The last part about its sales is completely non-sense. Yes, it is getting spanked by ps4 but xbox has always lacked behind sony and gran turismo has always outsold forza for one reason or another and once again is. I am not trying to compare x1 to ps4 im comparing current forza with past forzas and sales numbers say that something needs to change. This is the first forza that hasnt sold 1 million copies. So while you claim forza is exactly what you want, im willing to bet you are in the minority and there's at least 1 million people (difference in sales between fm6 and fm7) who spoke with their money and want something to change.

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#306 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 12:26:46 PM(UTC)
Well i have a room where i have a playseat with wheel, a gaming pc and the xbox and i play simulators since Nascar 2003, i never played rivals other than the bounty hunters and once i finished the career i just played multiplayer, publics and privates.
Anyway for me hotlapping is not racing.
Ps.: in my point of view GT sport sold more only because there are more ps4 than Xone and till now there wasn't any decent racing game for the sony console.

Edited by user Monday, February 26, 2018 12:49:29 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#307 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 12:55:43 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: P00hhead Go to Quoted Post

AI behavior is not physics, in fact most of the stuff being discussed here isnt physics either, it's gameplay.

As far as sales go, the more "simulation" the game is the worse the sales. Asseto Corsa, PCars and the rest sell abysmally on the Xbox and only get by because of the PS4 and PC sales. Forza has been #1 since FM3 and only recently has Horizon 3 taken over, although who knows how much of that is because of the free pack-in. FM have been tops for years and they arent going to go in direction the market tells them not to go in - simulation.


Wrong thread. The ai behavior thread is the other thread regarding physics currently circulating.

I agree with you that simulations dont sell well, but since the release of Pcars and forza horizon Motorsport is in an indentity crisis. I am not sure what you are on about with forza being king since fm3? If it werent for the fact that polyphony couldn't keep a consistent schedule forza never would have been king. Forza 3 released in 09 - Gran Turismo PSP sold just as many copies, Forza 4 Released in '11 which didnt come anywhere near the sales that Gran Turismo 5 had (less than half), 2013 fm5 vs Gran Turismo 6 (almost double the sales) forza horizon sold nearly as many copies as fm5 and fm5 was a release title, Fm6 had no competitor however horizon 2 matched its sales. Fm7 is currently at about 1/3 the sales of gran turismo sport.

I am not saying the market tells them to go sim however gran turismo markets itself as a sim even tho it is also simcade and sells much better than forza, however in terms of forza sales it says go more arcade because horizon sells as well or better than motorsport anyways.

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#308 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 12:59:58 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DylanDrog Go to Quoted Post
Well i have a room where i have a playseat with wheel, a gaming pc and the xbox and i play simulators since Nascar 2003, i never played rivals other than the bounty hunters and once i finished the career i just played multiplayer, publics and privates.
Anyway for me hotlapping is not racing.
Ps.: in my point of view GT sport sold more only because there are more ps4 than Xone and till now there wasn't any decent racing game for the sony console.


I wasn't meaning you in specific I just know there are quite a few of my friends that own a wheel and still play forza instead of other games they would prefer because they have to setup the wheel and dont have a dedicated space for it.


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#309 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 1:27:52 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: P00hhead Go to Quoted Post

AI behavior is not physics, in fact most of the stuff being discussed here isnt physics either, it's gameplay.

As far as sales go, the more "simulation" the game is the worse the sales. Asseto Corsa, PCars and the rest sell abysmally on the Xbox and only get by because of the PS4 and PC sales. Forza has been #1 since FM3 and only recently has Horizon 3 taken over, although who knows how much of that is because of the free pack-in. FM have been tops for years and they arent going to go in direction the market tells them not to go in - simulation.


Wrong thread. The ai behavior thread is the other thread regarding physics currently circulating.

I agree with you that simulations dont sell well, but since the release of Pcars and forza horizon Motorsport is in an indentity crisis. I am not sure what you are on about with forza being king since fm3? If it werent for the fact that polyphony couldn't keep a consistent schedule forza never would have been king. Forza 3 released in 09 - Gran Turismo PSP sold just as many copies, Forza 4 Released in '11 which didnt come anywhere near the sales that Gran Turismo 5 had (less than half), 2013 fm5 vs Gran Turismo 6 (almost double the sales) forza horizon sold nearly as many copies as fm5 and fm5 was a release title, Fm6 had no competitor however horizon 2 matched its sales. Fm7 is currently at about 1/3 the sales of gran turismo sport.

I am not saying the market tells them to go sim however gran turismo markets itself as a sim even tho it is also simcade and sells much better than forza, however in terms of forza sales it says go more arcade because horizon sells as well or better than motorsport anyways.


Gran Turismo sells because of name, they've been around since 1999 and created the genre from scratch, their name has more recognition no matter how bad the game is. It's like the GTR3 that was announced last year, SimBin (now Sector 3) is a household name so it'll attract attention even though all we got so far was vaporware.

But ask around, people in GT community sing the same tune as you with regards to GT, they say GT prime was GT4 still on the PS2(!) and everything went downhill since then. Some of them even moved on to Forza Motorsport(!), because it was more like what they wanted to play.

It's actually really funny because if you search around you'll find lots of people in GT community complaining about the reverse of what you say, they wanted a more simcade GT with upgrading and street cars, not an always-online simulator.

Besides, if your sales numbers are from VGChartz (which they seem to be as the numbers are the same), they don't include digital sales at all, there's people on PC buying Forza and they surely ain't buying physical. My copy is digital and MS hasn't disclosed sales numbers in a while.

Neither of them, Forza Motorsport nor Gran Turismo, have never been simulators. "The Real Driving Simulator" has always been a marketing ploy. And you just watch, Project CARS will begin to move away from simulation in small steps, as Ian Bell is after all the guy who gave us NFS Shift.
May the forced induction be with you.

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#310 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 3:18:01 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: P00hhead Go to Quoted Post

AI behavior is not physics, in fact most of the stuff being discussed here isnt physics either, it's gameplay.

As far as sales go, the more "simulation" the game is the worse the sales. Asseto Corsa, PCars and the rest sell abysmally on the Xbox and only get by because of the PS4 and PC sales. Forza has been #1 since FM3 and only recently has Horizon 3 taken over, although who knows how much of that is because of the free pack-in. FM have been tops for years and they arent going to go in direction the market tells them not to go in - simulation.


Wrong thread. The ai behavior thread is the other thread regarding physics currently circulating.

I agree with you that simulations dont sell well, but since the release of Pcars and forza horizon Motorsport is in an indentity crisis. I am not sure what you are on about with forza being king since fm3? If it werent for the fact that polyphony couldn't keep a consistent schedule forza never would have been king. Forza 3 released in 09 - Gran Turismo PSP sold just as many copies, Forza 4 Released in '11 which didnt come anywhere near the sales that Gran Turismo 5 had (less than half), 2013 fm5 vs Gran Turismo 6 (almost double the sales) forza horizon sold nearly as many copies as fm5 and fm5 was a release title, Fm6 had no competitor however horizon 2 matched its sales. Fm7 is currently at about 1/3 the sales of gran turismo sport.

I am not saying the market tells them to go sim however gran turismo markets itself as a sim even tho it is also simcade and sells much better than forza, however in terms of forza sales it says go more arcade because horizon sells as well or better than motorsport anyways.


I'm only comparing XBox sales with Xbox sales, just about every GT game has outsold any of the FM games.

Forza games are still #1 on the Xbox and with the success of Horizon there's no reason to think that sim is direction to head in when sim doesnt sell.

There are 1,500,000 entries on the intro leaderboards for FM7 which is just about the same as FM3 at a comparable point after it was released so there is no reason to think that FM7 hasnt sold at least 1 million or is doing poorly.

As for the topic of the thread most of what you want is more simulation gameplay, qualifing, penalties etc. That is not physics, which seem to be just fine and are almost impossible to judge on their own much less between games.
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#311 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 3:33:52 PM(UTC)
Not true I made my claims of why I thought the physics were junk and no-one has refuted other than I disagree so this got a bit off topic. The physics are super simplistic and the proof is in the tuning.

But yes I'd love more features that attributed to racing were in placce.

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#312 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 3:36:16 PM(UTC)
Why can't people just enjoy the game?

Note, I called it a game because that is what it is. FM7 does have some realistic world physics in it but it isn't a simulator. A real simulator is fun for maybe an hour. You then realize how hard it is to drive a high performance car. It is work, not fun. In FM7 you can quickly become familiar with the operation of the car in the game and race against other drivers and not make a total fool of yourself. That is what makes the game fun and much more enjoyable than a simulator.

After a day at work I'd rather go home and play a race game based in reality and have fun than practice on a simulator. I already spent a day at work, I don't want to go to work again when I get home. In my opinion FM7 struck a good balance between being a totally arcade game and being a simulator.
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#313 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 3:41:16 PM(UTC)
I totally agree, JimB3.
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#314 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 3:43:54 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: JimB3 Go to Quoted Post
Why can't people just enjoy the game?


Why does it matter/bother you if other people dont enjoy the game? This is a public forum in which people are allowed to feel any way they want about the game and express that as long as it does so in a way to not just call it garbage for no reason.

The thread posed the question "why does forza 7 went for arcade physics???" In which people are responding on if the physics are good or not. This is not oppinion based at all quite honestly. This is factitious and based on something real, science and physics. I know people tend to let feelings get in the way of facts. If only turn 10 would allow us to see the back side of things so we could truly see how factual the physics are.

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#315 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 7:10:53 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: JimB3 Go to Quoted Post
Why can't people just enjoy the game?


Why does it matter/bother you if other people dont enjoy the game? This is a public forum in which people are allowed to feel any way they want about the game and express that as long as it does so in a way to not just call it garbage for no reason.

The thread posed the question "why does forza 7 went for arcade physics???" In which people are responding on if the physics are good or not. This is not oppinion based at all quite honestly. This is factitious and based on something real, science and physics. I know people tend to let feelings get in the way of facts. If only turn 10 would allow us to see the back side of things so we could truly see how factual the physics are.
Give up!!

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#316 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 7:38:34 PM(UTC)
Right. I should give up because noone can come up with any legitimate argument that even remotely proves the physics are good other than "they feel good to Me"?

Your onto something.....

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#317 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 8:02:30 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Right. I should give up because noone can come up with any legitimate argument that even remotely proves the physics are good other than "they feel good to Me"?

Your onto something.....


Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't even own FM7 do you? Why are you so concerned about it?
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#318 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 8:30:05 PM(UTC)
From my experience the physics are decent, any drift technique I have heard of or read about all work in forza, from weight transfers, shift/compression lock, hand brake, power you name it, it works. So to me the vehicle physics/dynamics are decent enough, but I feel like the transition from grip and slip is a bit too rigid. This makes the cars pretty twitchy at/over the limit and makes complete sense as to why max front ARB and min rear ARB would work to combat that problem as it is going to give the car a tendency to understeer more which will make it easier to drive at/over the limit.

As for some of the other tuning quirks you mentioned I'm not too sure, could be that the numbers, could be the lack of any physical damage that could occur extreme setting that would prevent that from working in the real world maybe?
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#319 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 8:50:40 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Right. I should give up because noone can come up with any legitimate argument that even remotely proves the physics are good other than "they feel good to Me"?

Your onto something.....


The opposite could be said as well and taking the tactic of 'you can't disprove that they aren't good' isn't helping much either.

Sim and arcade are words that mean something different to everyone and until you precisely describe what you mean. Much of what is being discussed is gameply and controller/game interface not physics. If the tuning doesnt seem realistic enough ( which I agree with ) that doesnt necessarily make the game arcade or have bad physics.
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#320 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 11:28:56 PM(UTC)
Comparing one sim with another is always going to be imprecise and subjective and no one is able to really compare any sim with reality so in terms of accuracy we’re in a no win situation. Simulation by its very nature is entirely abstract. What some people wish for is emulation which isn’t possible. Driving is all about energy and that’s the one thing we can’t experience.

As for which developer gets closest in terms of simulated physics we really have no way of knowing. All we can really do is compare the end result - the games.

I can’t help wonder that if one of the “serious” sim developers decided to have a crack at winning a broader market and simplified tuning (who wants to spend a day calculating pre-load), implemented a range of assists to enable new players to complete a race, shortened events to make the game faster paced, introduced an upgrade path to allow players to “build” their own cars and upped the content. Whether, despite the fact physics remain unchanged, we’d end up with something very close to Forza.

Or, put another way, if each of these games was stripped back to one car, one track and no tuning, just how different would they really be. I think the bigger difference between the games isn’t so much the physics but the final product.
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#321 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 11:42:37 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Right. I should give up because noone can come up with any legitimate argument that even remotely proves the physics are good other than "they feel good to Me"?

Your onto something.....


I'm still waiting for the user to come back who didn't believe you could enter some default settings like max and min arb etc and was going to go away and test your theory. I myself knew you could do this with some settings but had didn't know it effected stuff like bump and rebound as well. That in itself is proof to me that in some aspects the physics engine isn't as intricate as some would believe.

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#322 Posted : Monday, February 26, 2018 11:49:50 PM(UTC)
What is a sim racer? As I see it Forza Motorsport is a sim racer. The main reason is the tuning and upgrade part of the game. One gt4 car is different from a different gt4 car. If you change something, that actually mean something.

"Forza ain't realistic" some say. Well that's true but then no game is like driving a racecar. On the track there are g forces. Shakeing. The feedback from the force feedback is wrong. No feedback from pedals. The sound is wrong. No mechanical issues. No fear of crashing. The list long. These are computer games.

So what do you want? Is Forza more forgiveing than some other games. Yeah to a point. One can have a tc on cars that don't have tc. But then again some would say that an endurance race in England without rain is totally unrealistic.

As I see it there are games that have more complicated features. The Mercedes sls gt3 has an 8 level tc. Some games will give you that. And drs and hybrid options. But they are still not realistic. Iracing and Assetto Corsa give you that. But no rain. No snow. That doesn't make iracing more realistic than Forza.
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#323 Posted : Tuesday, February 27, 2018 12:02:23 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Nuno150 Go to Quoted Post

...
As I see it there are games that have more complicated features. The Mercedes sls gt3 has an 8 level tc. Some games will give you that. And drs and hybrid options. But they are still not realistic. Iracing and Assetto Corsa give you that. But no rain. No snow. That doesn't make iracing more realistic than Forza.


As silly as this statement is (those games are in completely different category compared to Forza Motorsport), it is also partially wrong. Check out Assetto Corsa Competizione, which will bring the rain and I can make a bold prediction, that the physics behind rain in that game will mop the floor with physics that is happening in Forza Motorsport rainy conditions.

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#324 Posted : Tuesday, February 27, 2018 12:18:24 AM(UTC)
Competizione is a coming game. We don't know how anything will work yet.

But I think the rain won't be like real life rain on a real life track.
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#325 Posted : Wednesday, February 28, 2018 2:58:51 AM(UTC)
Since the thread title has changed to a request, can a mod dump this whole thread with all the rest of the whiny poo posts in the features wishlist thread?
Asking for sim physics is basically a feature he wishes for so I see no reason why it should have its own thread.
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