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#1 Posted : Saturday, October 21, 2017 4:00:42 PM(UTC)
Since Forza 7s initial sales are even lower than the ones from Forza 6, according to Eurogamer, while Gran Turismo Sport is once again selling like crazy (although it has way less content and not even a real single player mode), I wonder if it isn't about the time for Turn 10 to change the strategy. See, Forza Horizon satisfies the arcade gamers, and as far as I can tell, it has been accepted by a lot of people as a fun derivative of the Forza franchise. So there is no need for another arcady or semi arcady Forza entry. Forza Motorsport has never had the big sales numbers it should have had, especially not with the recent iterations on Xbox One.

So: why not gain real respect again with the core audience of sim racers by making Forza Motorsport 8 a real sim (again, like the very first one and probably FM2 as well) ? Meaning. Real handling, real difficulty, real physics. Forza 7 is getting good ratings, but they don't sell the game, because the sim communities tell the casuals to stay away from the game, since it is "too arcady" in their eyes. Things like loot boxes don't help it either, but that is a different story. The FIA approval of GT Sports alone is giving that game so much credibility that everybody and his dog wants to have it. I play it too, though I hate that it doesn't have a real single player mode. But i really like that you will be punished for using shortcuts and that it has a rating system for fair driving like iRacing does. ANd GT is used by the GT Academy in order to train real race drivers. So it has to be much more of a sim. and still it is very successful.

For the longest time, Forza was among my favourite racing franchises- for several reasons - but you can't deny that the handling is getting more and more casual, even if you turn all settings to "simulation". Time for a 180, dudes! Forza has all the nice assets, tracks and cars. Just evaluated by the numbers, it has the very best options to start with. Now it only needs to return to real sim standards in terms of handling.

Edited by user Saturday, October 21, 2017 4:01:30 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#2 Posted : Saturday, October 21, 2017 4:08:41 PM(UTC)
If we wanted a real motorsports simulator we have Assetto Corsa, Project Cars 2, iRacing, Race Room Racing Experience, Dirt Rally, F1 2017, Automobilista, Gran Turismo Sport, rFactor, Live For Speed, the list goes on and on, Forza just needs to be good at being Forza, which right now its failing to do.
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#3 Posted : Saturday, October 21, 2017 4:11:00 PM(UTC)
>How many of them can you play on Xbox One? With solid 60 FPS?
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#4 Posted : Saturday, October 21, 2017 4:19:57 PM(UTC)
I see your point, and while I dont believe that Forza will ever go full sim. They should strive for that feel of a sim. Forza has the platform to be a great game, but lacking the simple things that most want.
I could make a list , but everything has been hammered out in the forums, like the horrible AI(my biggest problem is the AI),headlight options,championship with a car you actually build and so on. This is my first Forza game, and unless T10 shows effort into fixing this one. It may be my last, I will not pre order Forza 8. I will wait to see reviews and Youttube content.

However, as it stands right now: (we should give T10 some time)
Its still early IMO, and we still dont have the first big patch. I would wait to see after the patch for the direction T10 will take Forza 7. They have to see the complaints in this forum, it could turn around to be the game we all want.

Edited by user Saturday, October 21, 2017 4:21:35 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#5 Posted : Saturday, October 21, 2017 8:20:43 PM(UTC)
Yup I agree. I would like to see Turn 10 make Forza Motorsport a proper simulator. They need to ditch all the silly features like driver costumes, off-road trucks, limos, off-road SUV’s etcetera. Adding stuff like qualifying, flags/rules and and better simulation of wet tires (I.e. the need to pit for wet tires on race cars) would be great. I thought with more hard-core sims like Project Cars or Assetto Corsa coming to Xbox that Turn 10 would make a better simulation. Unfortunately that has not been the case. This series continues to devolve into a silly arcade racer that has lost its focus.

While I agree that Forza Motorsport seems to be getting closer and closer to the Horizon series like an arcade game, I do think the driving physics are better overall in FM7. Personally I thought FM5 and FM7 the cars had too little grip. It feels better in FM7 as the cars have a bit more realistic grip and you can feel weight transfer better, but they still suffer from snap oversteer. I also think that using simulation steering with a controller makes it feel more realistic. The wet racing in FM6 was ridiculous as the conditions were so treacherous that a race would be red flagged in real life. The wet racing in FM7 probably has too much grip now but it’s much less frustrating.

I had cancelled my FM7 pre-order but broke down and bought it a few days after launch. If I could go back I probably wouldn’t get it as the game seems more about car collecting than racing. If FM8 isn’t a big improvement I will be skipping it for sure. Thankfully I have both Assetto Corsa and Project Cars 2 to play and they work great with excellent FFB on my Logitech G920. I won’t even try FM7 with a wheel as I know I’ll be dissapointed.
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#6 Posted : Saturday, October 21, 2017 8:47:21 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Skunkworks16 Go to Quoted Post
Yup I agree. I would like to see Turn 10 make Forza Motorsport a proper simulator. They need to ditch all the silly features like driver costumes, off-road trucks, limos, off-road SUV’s etcetera. Adding stuff like qualifying, flags/rules and and better simulation of wet tires (I.e. the need to pit for wet tires on race cars) would be great. I thought with more hard-core sims like Project Cars or Assetto Corsa coming to Xbox that Turn 10 would make a better simulation. Unfortunately that has not been the case. This series continues to devolve into a silly arcade racer that has lost its focus.

While I agree that Forza Motorsport seems to be getting closer and closer to the Horizon series like an arcade game, I do think the driving physics are better overall in FM7. Personally I thought FM5 and FM7 the cars had too little grip. It feels better in FM7 as the cars have a bit more realistic grip and you can feel weight transfer better, but they still suffer from snap oversteer. I also think that using simulation steering with a controller makes it feel more realistic. The wet racing in FM6 was ridiculous as the conditions were so treacherous that a race would be red flagged in real life. The wet racing in FM7 probably has too much grip now but it’s much less frustrating.

I had cancelled my FM7 pre-order but broke down and bought it a few days after launch. If I could go back I probably wouldn’t get it as the game seems more about car collecting than racing. If FM8 isn’t a big improvement I will be skipping it for sure. Thankfully I have both Assetto Corsa and Project Cars 2 to play and they work great with excellent FFB on my Logitech G920. I won’t even try FM7 with a wheel as I know I’ll be dissapointed.


FM7 feels pretty good with a G920.

I thought FM6 was the worst for FFB.

For context, right before the release of FM7, I was spending my weekends drifting in AC and modding drift cars to my liking.

Jumping into FM7 with the right settings and it feels like a AC junior only with way more content.

I'd love some of the game aspect of Forza to drop off altogether as well as they do have an enjoyable driving model and the FFB is improving. And as above, they already have the content to make a compelling sim.

I can't help but feel that they will lose a huge amount of their market if they did, which is likely a huge factor in their decision making for their overall direction.
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#7 Posted : Saturday, October 21, 2017 10:09:11 PM(UTC)
I never even finished reading the topic posted, let alone replies.

You went on about GT Sport, and sales, and credibility.

1) GT will always outsell Forza. Forza can't help that. GT is on a platform with a larger installed base and a massive fan base established before there was a Forza. GT also doesn't compete against itself, as there's a Forza every year but a GT every three to five years. PlayStation players have to get GT Sport because it's the only GT PS4 has after four years on the market and possibly the only GT it will ever get since PD can't get a game together in any respectable amount of time. Sales figures for GT versus Forza are irrelevant because of all this, and not a reflection of credibility or whatever. PD could scoop up dog **** and box it with a GT logo on it and it would sell a minimum of five-million units.

2) GT Sport isn't respected. Players generally hate it. Again, don't look at sales figures because most GT fans can hate it and it still would sell millions of units. Spend some time on GT Sport message boards and see all the disappointment. It's not like Forza where people fabricate complaints about nothing, like loot crates which hurt nothing and there's nothing technically wrong with them. GT Sport lets almost everyone down by just being multiplayer with basically license tests as the only offline content. You can't even play it offline. Then they're complaining because when you do play online, which is all there is, there's only three race locations available, from what I keep hearing. They're not at all impressed by the much smaller car count or track count, or lack of dynamic weather. Then they're every bit as unhappy about online crashing as Forza players are, and in GT Sport they have a penalty system for crashers but YOU get penalized when someone rams you. It's a real hot mess, and the FIA hasn't changed that.

3) GT isn't considered a true sim any more than Forza. Those sim snobs you referred to also consider GT "simcade" just the same. They're regarded roughly equally there. Polls on GT Sport boards reflect the same. Their own players don't view it as a sim, but rather "simcade" or even occasional votes for arcade. Almost nobody sees it as a true or proper sim.

Edited by user Saturday, October 21, 2017 10:13:48 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#8 Posted : Saturday, October 21, 2017 11:34:25 PM(UTC)
This would be suicide. The sim-community on PC is 1000 player big, which are spread to 5 hardcore sim-games, the xbox hardcoresim fans are 100 people.
We have the player base of 1100 player overall^^
You really think to make a game for this minority is a good idea?

Edited by user Saturday, October 21, 2017 11:35:32 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#9 Posted : Saturday, October 21, 2017 11:47:18 PM(UTC)
I think it would be very bad if forza went hardcore. It’s a big budget AAA game that needs to sell. I’m not hardcore but I would say that I really care about the racing and physics. Within the game I can remove assists and make it work for me so I’m happy. We have PC2 to cater for the hardcore (when it gets patched from being a disaster on Xbox).
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#10 Posted : Saturday, October 21, 2017 11:52:54 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: IceMan PJN Go to Quoted Post
I never even finished reading the topic posted, let alone replies.
3) GT isn't considered a true sim any more than Forza. Those sim snobs you referred to also consider GT "simcade" just the same. They're regarded roughly equally there. Polls on GT Sport boards reflect the same. Their own players don't view it as a sim, but rather "simcade" or even occasional votes for arcade. Almost nobody sees it as a true or proper sim.


I had the same thought but after some research, I found out that this is not a fact. Gran Turismo has been the learning program of the GT Academy - and there are people who became real life race drivers on that basis. And FIA wouldn't give it's approval if they wouldn't consider it to be a proper Sim. Several youtube Sim specialists consider GT to be much more of a sim than Forza ever was.

And sales are not the point, when you see GT. GT is a Sim that sells. If Forza dropped the biennial rhythm and only released ONE really properly made Sim game on Xbox, it would probably sell like hot cakes as well.

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#11 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 1:54:59 AM(UTC)
I fail to see how Forza becoming a "sim" racing game will make it better. I mean I would rather spend my time advocating for Forza to drop Forza Vista, Drivatars, and other pointless clutter to focus more on improving the racing with features that will better the community, add features that the community can use to spend their time away from racing, and give people features they will actually use. Forza Vista was a gimmick in FM4 to show off their car's polygon count, almost irrelevant today as a feature and it is hidden away now. Drivatars were a gimmick with FM5 to show off Micosoft's cloud features, but realistically the Drivatar AI is not really any better, maybe worse than regular AI. Racing features such as car to front and behind split times, no longer in the game since FM5. Best lap is hidden away after 10 seconds of starting the lap. Auction House finally comes back, but is locked. Leagues were available day one for FM6, but it has been almost a month and they are still locked. I could go on and on.

I can deal with the freezing every 30-60 minutes. I can deal with the hom division system. I can deal with cars not being perfect resemblances to how they drive in real life. Forza is failing because they fail to actually enrich the racing experience, and instead focus on gimmicks, which have obviously negatively effected the game as a whole because they are nothing but wasted resources.
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#12 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 2:35:54 AM(UTC)
I don't think FM should become a full sim, but I think they should focus on making it a bit more serious, it kind of feels like Forza Horizonsport now in my opinion.


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#13 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 2:38:40 AM(UTC)
If you want a simulator, get a PC, because the xbox can't do it as good.

Then get a proper accuforce wheel and Heusinkveld pedals because a Thrustmaster or Fanatec can't hold a candle to that sort of equipment.

Then get VR, because sim racing isn't cricket without it.

Then you'll need butt kickers otherwise your just sitting in a regular chair.

And the list and the cost keeps going if you want real sim.

And I'd bet 90% of the forza players aren't prepared to put in a full weeks practice in one car on one track to prep for the one race you'll do that week, because it's sim, which means it's serious.

Forza has always been a "pick up and play" kind of game and should always be. Cheap and cheerful, easy to play, and not too serious.
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#14 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 2:56:31 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Vrruumm Go to Quoted Post
I fail to see how Forza becoming a "sim" racing game will make it better. I mean I would rather spend my time advocating for Forza to drop Forza Vista, Drivatars, and other pointless clutter to focus more on improving the racing with features that will better the community, add features that the community can use to spend their time away from racing, and give people features they will actually use. Forza Vista was a gimmick in FM4 to show off their car's polygon count, almost irrelevant today as a feature and it is hidden away now. Drivatars were a gimmick with FM5 to show off Micosoft's cloud features, but realistically the Drivatar AI is not really any better, maybe worse than regular AI. Racing features such as car to front and behind split times, no longer in the game since FM5. Best lap is hidden away after 10 seconds of starting the lap. Auction House finally comes back, but is locked. Leagues were available day one for FM6, but it has been almost a month and they are still locked. I could go on and on.

I can deal with the freezing every 30-60 minutes. I can deal with the hom division system. I can deal with cars not being perfect resemblances to how they drive in real life. Forza is failing because they fail to actually enrich the racing experience, and instead focus on gimmicks, which have obviously negatively effected the game as a whole because they are nothing but wasted resources.


You are spot-on about the unnecessary clutter and flash. I have been playing FM3 this afternoon and am amazed at how spartan it is, but this is what makes it so good. It's all about the racing.
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#15 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 2:58:38 AM(UTC)
As long as it continues to have handling that's spot on enough so that when I'm driving cars (or cars similar to) those I've driven in real life, they feel familiar even though I'm using a controller. It's the only series I've played that's managed that.
Welcome to the Hyperbolic Whine Chamber. If you cry hard enough you might get your pouter level over 9000.
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#16 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 2:59:36 AM(UTC)
Quote:

If you want a simulator, get a PC, because the xbox can't do it as good.

Then get a proper accuforce wheel and Heusinkveld pedals because a Thrustmaster or Fanatec can't hold a candle to that sort of equipment.

Then get VR, because sim racing isn't cricket without it.

Then you'll need butt kickers otherwise your just sitting in a regular chair.

And the list and the cost keeps going if you want real sim.



Exaggerate much? I don't see any Assetto Corsa or Race Room people doing all that.. Don't make it appear more sophisticated than it really is. I play Assetto Corsa on PC wwith my Fanatec Gear and Clubsport Pedals and it's just fine.

Edited by user Sunday, October 22, 2017 3:01:10 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#17 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 3:32:31 AM(UTC)
OP, it would be nice if there were more sim options but that's not the vision or direction of Forza. I like things like homologation and division based racing as well as improved FFB and wheel support but for every player asking about sim features, there ar five asking about class based racing, drifting, drag racing, painting, open spaces, assists, and other things that are unrelated or on the arcade side. It's sits in the middle ground and there is nothing that offers as much choice even with some features not in game yet.

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#18 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 3:32:53 AM(UTC)
Forza is in the business of making money, and that is exactly why this will never happen.
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#19 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 3:45:01 AM(UTC)
i like Forza the way it is, once it becomes full on sim, where using a controller is futile, i shall have to stop. i cannot get the hang of Project Cars or Assetto Corsa with a controller. I want a game that is pick up and play...not spending hours trying all different settings to get the car to drive in a straight line.
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#20 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 3:54:21 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PJTierney Go to Quoted Post
Forza is in the business of making money.


That sentence perfectly describes the Forza series now.
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#21 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 4:21:00 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: David McKenna Go to Quoted Post
i like Forza the way it is, once it becomes full on sim, where using a controller is futile, i shall have to stop. i cannot get the hang of Project Cars or Assetto Corsa with a controller. I want a game that is pick up and play...not spending hours trying all different settings to get the car to drive in a straight line.


Sim and Joypads don't exclude each other. Again Gran Turismo is the perfect example.

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#22 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 4:31:35 AM(UTC)
Haven't read all the posts, but interesting that OP would mention "Gran Turismo Sport"...

"Gran Turismo" was king in an era with no competition, but that's long gone. "Gran Turismo" is very mediocre compared to other options now, the only thing that sells is PD's brand. Even though that's just IMO, I feel it's a fact.

Overall, Forza is a simcade rather than simulator, yes... You'd have to remove the 'rewind' function, you'd have to include 24 hour races, you'd have to include true dynamic weather/time of day and you'd have an optional AI to the Drivatars... But it's closer than before, FM2 for example is very arcadish in terms of lap times using equivalent cars.

Edit. Also OP, why say FM6's weather conditions are "treacherous/would be red flagged" ? FM7 is very similar in terms of grip on a wet road. That's my impression after 50 laps of Norschleife.

Edited by user Sunday, October 22, 2017 4:41:34 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#23 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 5:04:50 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: karaokefreak Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: David McKenna Go to Quoted Post
i like Forza the way it is, once it becomes full on sim, where using a controller is futile, i shall have to stop. i cannot get the hang of Project Cars or Assetto Corsa with a controller. I want a game that is pick up and play...not spending hours trying all different settings to get the car to drive in a straight line.


Sim and Joypads don't exclude each other. Again Gran Turismo is the perfect example.



Agreed,Gran Turismo is a perfect example of being optimised for a controller, but is no more a full on sim than Forza.

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#24 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 5:25:10 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: GeneralGarric69 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PJTierney Go to Quoted Post
Forza is in the business of making money.


That sentence perfectly describes the Forza series now.


Yeah unlike all those developers who work for free and dispise profit.
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#25 Posted : Sunday, October 22, 2017 5:32:28 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: karaokefreak Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: IceMan PJN Go to Quoted Post
I never even finished reading the topic posted, let alone replies.
3) GT isn't considered a true sim any more than Forza. Those sim snobs you referred to also consider GT "simcade" just the same. They're regarded roughly equally there. Polls on GT Sport boards reflect the same. Their own players don't view it as a sim, but rather "simcade" or even occasional votes for arcade. Almost nobody sees it as a true or proper sim.


I had the same thought but after some research, I found out that this is not a fact. Gran Turismo has been the learning program of the GT Academy - and there are people who became real life race drivers on that basis. And FIA wouldn't give it's approval if they wouldn't consider it to be a proper Sim.


Josef Newgarden is the IndyCar champ, just gave a pistol whipping to the vast majority of challengers. FIA has had their logos on plenty of arcade titles, so long as they think it can make them a buck. Polyphony has spent far more time and money over the last twenty years courting fancy logos and gimmicks to stick on their box than they have developing their software.
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