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Rank: R-Class Racing License
#101 Posted : Wednesday, October 4, 2017 7:45:13 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: KTVDS Go to Quoted Post
Guys, honestly, I have much respect for both of you but I know you are better than this petty back and forth nonsense. Just take a step back, cooler heads will prevail.
Yes,you are right,sorry for the rant.

Rank: Driver's License
#102 Posted : Thursday, October 5, 2017 2:21:27 AM(UTC)
oddly enough i find the loot crates are one of the changes in forza 7 thats getting too much flak...i mean seriously, what are you going to do with all those millions of credits when you're already giving you a free car every lvl (if you choose to take it), plus a free car for every showcase completed.

the crate i recommend most is the premier mods crate having 3 60-100% is huge, but early on it really only best to stick to premier mod crate IMO... but I would have still preferred the forza 6 style mods over the forza 7 style mods as it only effect payout, whereas the other one was like having a unique pit crew plus a challenge instead of just 3 challenges... maybe they'll merge both... but i kind of doubt it at this point.

i tried the lucky car crate... seems overpriced for what i actually got... especially since for the most part i don't care about driver gear
Rank: R-Class Racing License
#103 Posted : Thursday, October 5, 2017 3:24:32 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: KTVDS Go to Quoted Post
Guys, honestly, I have much respect for both of you but I know you are better than this petty back and forth nonsense. Just take a step back, cooler heads will prevail.


Having looked back at this today. You're right, I was heated last night. I apologise to both yourself and T Rex.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#104 Posted : Thursday, October 5, 2017 5:15:26 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Tirominos Go to Quoted Post

Well I saw your Posts, while well written, I see a for the moment gaping Flaw in the It's not Gambling, because for one big reason people didn't seem to state in this topic much at all yet.
If you go to your Collection page there is still cars locked off wich will tell you if you try to buy them there that you may be able to unlock them by various ways.
Lootboxes maybe Forzaton in some far future maybe special vendor etc.
Who knows what is actually, If said cars ever end up in either of those, but we can be sure they are Crate Cars for now.
[...snip...]


What makes you sure that each car actually can be found in loot crates? All the description says is listing POSSIBLE ways to acquire a car but I wouldn't assume they all can be found there.

As for gambling... last time I checked kids were allowed to amusement parks and funfairs. No guards on entrance that would throw them out nor any other "casino features" here. And last time I checked beside of short rides to make you sick they are full of "games" like throwing balls to cups or shooting various devices to target. Just few bucks and you CAN win that great plush! Ohhh you missed this one... don't worry, few bucks more and you win for sure! See what I mean? It's not that games now spoil our children with dirty caisno gambling. It was always been there. And there were always kids loosing they entire pocket money for a chance to win something shiny. As a parent I know it's my responsibility to talk to my kids and show them it is fun to play as long as you know when to stop. And it's actually easier to controll themself in computer game because they can't just spend everything - they have to ask me or go out and buy another xbox card. Unlike funfair where they can just spend everything clean.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#105 Posted : Friday, October 6, 2017 6:17:43 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Tirominos Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Shay Feral Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GeneralGarric69 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Shay Feral Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GeneralGarric69 Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
"No, it's not about gambling. It's a convenient petty moral argument that you're lurching onto because you can't be buggered to come up with an original cohesive thought, much less an argument on the subject. If you were even remotely capable of doing so, then you'd be able to recognize that even by my own arguments; little Johnny could still play Forza Motorsport 7, if you as the parent took the time to actually be a parent and have a discussion about gambling and supervise your child's gaming habits, like you should!

But no... That's not an option at all!

If I roll my eyes any harder I'm gonna start doing aileron rolls."


Even excluding the argument that it's gambling, I still think there's lots of other issues with the loot crate implementation.

Do you think the loot crates make the game better? Do you think removing the bonuses we got in every game for turning off assists and putting them inside the loot boxes was a good idea? Do you think if they're successful now, that the next Forza game will rely on them more heavily?

I see lots of people complain they're added (for various reasons), I see people say they're ok because they're not needed, but I don't see anybody say "I'm so happy they added loot crates"


1: Actually, in concept I think random loot boxes could add to the Forza experience. One of my criticisms of the Forza series is that it takes a remarkably short amount of time for credits to become a rather non-issue, and often feel like there isn't enough to do with my millions of credits but to buy copies of my favorite cars and make different builds. That alone can only hold entertainment value for so long, and then Forza becomes a game that I simply boot up to bomb around a track for a few minutes; maybe do a few races... and then put down.

Having something else to spend my in-game credits on, even for random chance content; is not unwelcome.

2: My sole complaint with Turn 10 removing rewards for turning off assists is that it removes incentive for new players to challenge themselves. However, since I'm a hermit and I don't play Forza online except with friends in private sessions; how other people play the game and why is really no skin off of my nose. Them culling back rewards so I don't have a mountain of credits in two hours of gameplay is a welcome change, frankly.

3: People complain about anything and everything, whining about microtransations is in vogue these days. People cry at the mere mention of microtransactions, even completely ignoring the fact that the way Turn 10 has handled microtransactions in the past have been extremely non-invasive for those who don't wish to participate. With the way Turn 10 has historically handled microtransactions, as far as I'm concerned; these people complaining about microtransactions is like complaining that your local burger joint has salads on the menu. Nothing has ever been locked behind Turn 10's microtransactions, you've never needed to buy them to get that one car you've always wanted. It's always been a method to skip the grind, for the lazy players with the income to burn.

So no, these people complaining; as far as I care, do not have valid opinions. Because in a practical sense, they're harping because other people are harping because someone else told them to harp.


I'm playing Forza Motorsport 2 again right now and I wouldn't say credits are that easy to come by. It looks like I'll have to repeat a good few races to get all the cars. In FM4 it was apparent that credits, cars and upgrades had become much easier to get. I can see why you'd want to put more effort in to get rewarded, I don't think it's very exciting or rewarding to have cars and money thrown at you like candy.

I still think if Turn 10 don't get flak for the loot boxes it would get worse in the next iteration, maybe they won't, but I don't really trust a developer especially one under Microsoft's pressure. Every Forza game seems to get higher amounts of DLC and the recent change of VIP wasn't very trustworthy was it? So why would loot boxes be exempt from the same practices?


Now there's a more reasonable and thought out response.

Forza Motorsport 2 was also pre-microtransactions, and it has been a trend since the introduction during Forza motorsport 4; that Turn 10 pretty much started throwing credits and rewards at you. And if I recall correctly, is because Turn 10 themselves really didn't want to put them into their game. Whatever the reason, of the AAA devs that have taken to microtransactions; Forza hasn't taken to locking content behind micro-transactions. Which is why I'm not upset over the lootboxes, because I don't see any indication that we'll be restricted to purchasing these loot crates with real money. And that DOES make it okay, because it functionally makes microtransactions non-existent for the players who do not wish to employ them.

If there are any boxes that are specificly microtransaction only, then by all means lets ready the flack cannons.

I do understand that Forza 5 upon initial release was a bit of a misstep, but they did respond to and make adjustments based on the criticism yielded. So, honestly, taking previous behavior patterns into consideration, I am convinced that the vast majority of outrage is manufactured out of =willful= ignorance.

======

That's not to say that I don't think Forza 7 has reasons to be criticized, because it does. The issue with the VIP package and the limited consumable race rewards is extremely shady, however; the question I want to raise is whether or not this was listed in the VIP purchase description. If not, then yeah, I'd agree whole heartedly that's shadey and Turn 10/Microsoft should answer for it. But in my experiences dealing with users while modding for Fallout 4, I learned first hand that the general public does NOT have very good reading comprehension; or just out right refuse to read before jumping head long into whatever it is they want to do.


Well I saw your Posts, while well written, I see a for the moment gaping Flaw in the It's not Gambling, because for one big reason people didn't seem to state in this topic much at all yet.
If you go to your Collection page there is still cars locked off wich will tell you if you try to buy them there that you may be able to unlock them by various ways.
Lootboxes maybe Forzaton in some far future maybe special vendor etc.
Who knows what is actually, If said cars ever end up in either of those, but we can be sure they are Crate Cars for now.
Now then lets asume you want a tier 1 Car wich is for now crate Exclusive, then well you need to buy crates, ALOT of crates.
Since there is curently no exclusive tier one Crate and the 70k Mixed crate for me atleast dropped both tier 1 and 2 cars we are talking about 339 potential Drops per single crate wich puts your odds at 1 out 339 that is far below 1% of getting your desired car.
Now the aditonal problem is, that crates can contain duplicates, wich means as you open more crates your chances of new cars Decreases.
I got a dupe out of my 3rd crate so I need to asume duplicates are just as likely as new cars.
Now lets asume you really really want that car with the odds of said 1 out 339 wich should mean on average on 339 crates you should get your car, maybe sooner, but also maybe later, but for the sake of just some basic math there lets go for 339 70k crates.
Wich means and now hold on tight to get a tier 1 car that you desire that is locked off you will spend an average of 23.730.000 Credits.
Now if they keep it fair, thats where we stop, but remember we do not know yet what the market place really holds and the fact its locked off post release now does cause quite some conern.
Sure they might offer the past games tokens I didn't really mind those but what about those locked off cars maybe the offer you shortcuts for them or crates wich more car drop chances.
And sorry to say this is where you then officially are gambling because if you get a duplicate aside from a sell Value half its price that means you will be having crates wich are Failures in Investment then.
If and only if the crates and said cars remain credit exclusive, then its not real gambeling indid but quite close.
Though all those rather strange facts, removal of permanent Credits VIP bonus like that, even if as I shown you want to grind crates you gonna sit there for ages for just a tier 1 car.
Worse if they choose to have some of said cars in money crates then we reached the point where its full on gambling cause then your only way to get said car would be to throw out vasts amounts of money or hope to get a other chance at it someday.


First, could you break up your post so I'm not reading a wall of text next time?

I don't think you fully understand the concept of gambling. Gambling is essentially betting money on a game of chance or even skill; in where the player has a chance to loose. Lootboxes don't qualify as gambling, even if it has an element of gambling to it; because for the fact that the player is guaranteed a reward of some kind, even if it isn't the specific item they want. This would make lootboxes technically a randomized purchase.

Any other problem you think you have is pretty much a non-issue. Even though there are a few cars hidden in loot boxes, nothing is gated behind microtransactions; you can buy these lootboxes with in-game currency without ever having spent the first red cent on Forza tokens. So essentially Forza Motorsport 7 has what amounts to a wheel spin minigame that there are some content that you can only obtain this way.

This method only becomes an issue is if Turn 10 gates off a car to a lootbox that you could only buy with real world money/forza tokens.

The problem is that, yes, most developers who've taken to using microtranscations have done so in a very anti-consumer way, to the point where it's become a naughty word amongst gamers. However, I don't believe that justifies the masses to switch off their brains and throw temper tantrums at the mere inclusion of a microtransaction. And Forza Motorsport 7, if anything, really goes to show how fickle and petty gamers can be as a collective. In regards to Microtransactions, Forza has been one of the best examples of how to use microtransactions. How so, you may ask? Well, you never need to buy the first forza token for ANYTHING. You could just get it in game if you just played the game.

But throw in the word lootboxes and there is a collective loss of bowel control. the monkeys start flinging their mess around, and they don't even understand how it's supposed to work yet. And then people start moral grandstanding with some of the most misunderstood notions and illogical ranting; which in of it's self, is immoral, ironic right?

People aren't perfect, but most people don't even try...

I'm not saying that companies who engage in unscrupulous tactics shouldn't be held accountable. But I have a hard time trusting anyone's opinion on the matter if their first stop isn't at the first line of defense; parenting.

Edited by user Friday, October 6, 2017 6:31:56 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

You picked some day to finally find the devil in your eyes, looking inside mine
Youre a long way from paradise. Say goodbye, youre the boy who cried
Im the wolf outside your door and youre in trouble
with every wolf you saw before and youll never last long
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#106 Posted : Tuesday, October 17, 2017 2:58:55 PM(UTC)
Well seems the UK government is looking into lootcrates and the effects it has like gambling. And how vulnerable adults and children should be protected against such tactics in video games.

Maybe something will be done to curb this greed and trickery.
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