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Rank: S-Class Racing License
#226 Posted : Saturday, December 23, 2017 7:05:02 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: McPhersonator Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Wilko Jones Go to Quoted Post
... (All I want is realism, how come that's always compromised?)...


Well, there's nothing realistic about all sunshine, all the time. Not where I live anyway! Yes, Forza 5 looks better. But then you're always looking at the same thing and personally, I get bored of that. Forza 7 allows for different light even on tracks that don't support dynamic weather or nighttime racing. And the track selection is so big, I might play every day for a week but only encounter a particular track once. And if that track looks slightly different every time I see it, well, all the better.
That said, I do think there are too many grey skies in Forza 7. I see enough of them in merry old England so it doesn't make great escapism to sit down to my current favourite game and see more of them. I'm sure it looks astoundingly realistic with HDR but on my old set, it just looks dull.

But anyway, I'm happy with the way Forza 7 looks. I value the variety and bigger picture over the little details. And comparisons aside, it is a great looking game that runs at 1080/60 on base Xbox One hardware. That's an achievement.



I never claimed that FM5 was more realistic! Thanks for quoting me, and then taking that out of context.

Edited by user Saturday, December 23, 2017 7:06:08 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Time to hit the road.

Take care!
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#227 Posted : Saturday, December 23, 2017 8:44:36 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Wilko Jones Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: McPhersonator Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Wilko Jones Go to Quoted Post
... (All I want is realism, how come that's always compromised?)...


Well, there's nothing realistic about all sunshine, all the time. Not where I live anyway! Yes, Forza 5 looks better. But then you're always looking at the same thing and personally, I get bored of that. Forza 7 allows for different light even on tracks that don't support dynamic weather or nighttime racing. And the track selection is so big, I might play every day for a week but only encounter a particular track once. And if that track looks slightly different every time I see it, well, all the better.
That said, I do think there are too many grey skies in Forza 7. I see enough of them in merry old England so it doesn't make great escapism to sit down to my current favourite game and see more of them. I'm sure it looks astoundingly realistic with HDR but on my old set, it just looks dull.

But anyway, I'm happy with the way Forza 7 looks. I value the variety and bigger picture over the little details. And comparisons aside, it is a great looking game that runs at 1080/60 on base Xbox One hardware. That's an achievement.



I never claimed that FM5 was more realistic! Thanks for quoting me, and then taking that out of context.


You said the look of Forza 5 was "done right" and you said it looks better than Forza 7 in a lot of areas. I'm not seeing how that comment was out of context.

"Even thought the game was stripped down, Turn 10 got the looks of FM5 right. And I completely understand that FM7 had to be paired back in some area to include features that 'people' (Who are these people BTW?) 'want' (All I want is realism, how come that's always compromised?). Eh... It got the game accolades, awards and stuff. So I guess it's a success even though, 5 looks better in a lot of areas... But a win's a win."
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#228 Posted : Saturday, December 23, 2017 10:29:42 PM(UTC)
Brands Hatch in the rain was photorealistic to the point I almost felt I was there.

This game handily defeats the first Project CARS, which used to be my benchmark. Not sure about the second one, but it looks good enough to be mistaken for a video.
R.I.P. 24 Heures du Mans

26/05/1923 - 17/06/2018
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#229 Posted : Monday, December 25, 2017 6:40:08 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MalerFlieger Go to Quoted Post
having played both a good amount of time i gotta say this: putting the resolution and the amount of cars and tracks aside, i think that GT Sport beats FM7 in every other aspect, such as:
-lighting
-car handling with gamepad
-sounddesign (i dont mean only engine, thats debatable, i mean wind, tyre rolling sound etc) as an overall package is better
-the way cars behave on track, their movement, bodyroll, looks realistic
-replays are sublime
-attention to detail (visible flexible tyrecarcass in replays), 3D crowds moving,
-although no rain or moving clouds i find the 5-6 different times of day per track much more satisfying than forzas 6 rain tracks and the other tracks with 1-2 time of day settings.
-overall presentation, i.e. menus, music, navigation
-no bugs, no glitches, its perfectly polished (forza 7 on pc anyone?)
-far superior multiplayer, works like a charm connection wise and also the SR for what its worth is very good and delivers some very clean and close races on higher levels. sure can be still improved.


Totally agree with this post.
Still many works to do at Turn10
Specialy on the car bodyroll ( still too much static , suspension doesnt move naturaly )
and globat sounds engines , specialy when you down shift or reaccelerate

On these aspects ( and more , lightnings , global illumination ) , GTS is far better IMO
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#230 Posted : Tuesday, December 26, 2017 12:29:09 AM(UTC)
a nice touch about GT Sport i found out is that when you stand still and steer, the cars body moves a bit up and down according to the direction you are steering.
in forza that effect is absent. the car when standing still is completely stiff, it looks like it has no suspension whatsoever.
the suspension animation even moves in scapes mode when you move the car over a curb. thats insane attention to detail.

Edited by user Tuesday, December 26, 2017 12:32:48 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#231 Posted : Tuesday, December 26, 2017 3:56:21 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MalerFlieger Go to Quoted Post
I can't judge how the games look on the base console as i played FH3 and FM 6 in form of Apex only on a very capable 4k/60 PC, but i feel that FM 7 with everything set to the max looks, except the sharper textures, less rich than FM 6 Apex on max settings. I just feel that they cut here and there in FM 7 in order to make room for the semi-dynamic time of day in nightraces (its basically plus/minus 3 hours cycle and in rain races you have still a static light source, only the clouds move and to me that trickery is very obvious, so i actually would prefer the solution from GT Sport, having 5-6 fixed times of day for every track. Imagine how nice every track in FM 7 would be if we could choose for each track from 6 different distinct settings.)
I adore the lighting in FH3 by the way. Dawn and Sunset looks so gorgeous. It's really a pitty it does not support HDR for the Win10 version. I would say that even without HDR the lighting in FH3 is superior to FM 7 lighting system.

If you're playing FH3 in 4k/60, then that will improve the two things that make it look awful to me on the One X at the moment (presumably the aliasing will be improved when we get the X enhanced version). Same for FM6, if you're able to play it at 4k, then it's going to address the horrible aliasing it has on the Xbox. So I can see why you'll then attach more importance to lighting. For me, the most important things are motion issues that draw my attention to them and make the game look completely unreal:
- low frame rate - objects don't jump from place to place in the real world like they do when they move across the screen when cornering at 30fps
- aliasing - the real world doesn't have objects shimmering with jagged lines
- pop-up - the real world doesn't have objects appearing or suddenly changing how they look when they reach a certain distance away from you
So those 3 things are the absolute top priority for me, and it's only once those have been fully dealt with that I care much about lighting. I've been waiting decades for games to fix those 3 issues, and we're not there yet, but FM7 on the One X gets the closest of any driving game I've played. The reduced aliasing vs GT Sport on the PS4 Pro was the main reason I bought a One X rather than a PS4 Pro.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#232 Posted : Tuesday, December 26, 2017 4:47:02 AM(UTC)
E3 build shows some effect absent from the release version like these dynamic shadows between cars :



They are unfortunately absent in the final release on Xbox One X and PC.

Only photo mode ( and maybe replay ) feature these dynamic shadows on Forza 7.

This effect is only present in game in Forza Horizon 3 ( also Project Cars and GTS cuz engine can run dynamic shadows for all 3D elements )

Edited by user Tuesday, December 26, 2017 4:54:19 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#233 Posted : Tuesday, December 26, 2017 8:48:51 AM(UTC)
Could we please get a fix for the rainspray effects and smoke? Both effects appear also as lines on the surface which looks odd. I dont know any game where this bug exists, other games have just normal over the ground hovering fog, smoke or other particles. In Forza 7 there is something odd going on with the effect maybe being placed too low to the ground? Do you guys know what i mean? You sort of can count the layers on the tarmac.

Edited by user Tuesday, December 26, 2017 8:49:46 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's License
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#234 Posted : Saturday, December 15, 2018 7:00:59 AM(UTC)
This comes as no surprise. I noticed the same was done to horizon 3. At first release the game looks immaculate with pristine graphics but after a series of updates the graphics begin to look like a cluster of garbage. after experiencing this with more than one game I'm convinced this was done intentionally.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#235 Posted : Saturday, December 15, 2018 8:22:01 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: CopperySinger5 Go to Quoted Post
This comes as no surprise. I noticed the same was done to horizon 3. At first release the game looks immaculate with pristine graphics but after a series of updates the graphics begin to look like a cluster of garbage. after experiencing this with more than one game I'm convinced this was done intentionally.


It's just placebo.
R.I.P. 24 Heures du Mans

26/05/1923 - 17/06/2018
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#236 Posted : Sunday, December 16, 2018 11:29:21 AM(UTC)
It is a placebo. As better looking games come out graphically, as they should considering Forza Motorsport 7 is now over a year old, the game seemingly looks worse, even though it's technically not. Actually, some aspects of the graphics got upgraded after launch, such as the tire smoke.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#237 Posted : Sunday, December 16, 2018 12:25:20 PM(UTC)
When this thread was first created, I was sceptical, but now I've played FM 5, 6 and 7 more, I can see the OP's point on some tracks. Atlanta is one where the difference really shows, to me, and I agree it seems to have got worse with each game. 5 has a kind of chunky solidity to the ground either side of the track that seems to have been progressively degraded in 6 then 7.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#238 Posted : Monday, December 17, 2018 4:11:05 PM(UTC)
I can't believe why this has to be explained but cest la vie.

Here's why Forza 5 looks better than Forza 7.

1. Less cars on track.
2. No dynamic shadows.
3. No dynamic skyboxes / clouds
4. Baked textures.
5. Less animations such as parts moving in the cockpit, the rear wing moving, etc.
6. No weather whatsoever.
7. Less Physics both in cars & objects like explode-able / flexible tire walls.
8. Worse particle effects such as tire smoke.
9. Less objects to render due to tire walls.

The list goes on & on & on.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#239 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2018 4:54:28 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
I can't believe why this has to be explained but cest la vie.

Here's why Forza 5 looks better than Forza 7.

1. Less cars on track.
2. No dynamic shadows.
3. No dynamic skyboxes / clouds
4. Baked textures.
5. Less animations such as parts moving in the cockpit, the rear wing moving, etc.
6. No weather whatsoever.
7. Less Physics both in cars & objects like explode-able / flexible tire walls.
8. Worse particle effects such as tire smoke.
9. Less objects to render due to tire walls.

The list goes on & on & on.


You would think with the power of XBOX X this shouldn't be an issue. 7 should look better than 5.
Been racing since Forza 1...2005... NOT 2007 like it say's above.
Rank: Driver's License
#240 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:29:13 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: JoeDiesle Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
I can't believe why this has to be explained but cest la vie.

Here's why Forza 5 looks better than Forza 7.

1. Less cars on track.
2. No dynamic shadows.
3. No dynamic skyboxes / clouds
4. Baked textures.
5. Less animations such as parts moving in the cockpit, the rear wing moving, etc.
6. No weather whatsoever.
7. Less Physics both in cars & objects like explode-able / flexible tire walls.
8. Worse particle effects such as tire smoke.
9. Less objects to render due to tire walls.

The list goes on & on & on.


You would think with the power of XBOX X this shouldn't be an issue. 7 should look better than 5.


haha! You are right. How is the advertisment? The World's Most Powerful Console!
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#241 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2018 6:29:54 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: QuadratHund8308 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: JoeDiesle Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
I can't believe why this has to be explained but cest la vie.

Here's why Forza 5 looks better than Forza 7.

1. Less cars on track.
2. No dynamic shadows.
3. No dynamic skyboxes / clouds
4. Baked textures.
5. Less animations such as parts moving in the cockpit, the rear wing moving, etc.
6. No weather whatsoever.
7. Less Physics both in cars & objects like explode-able / flexible tire walls.
8. Worse particle effects such as tire smoke.
9. Less objects to render due to tire walls.

The list goes on & on & on.


You would think with the power of XBOX X this shouldn't be an issue. 7 should look better than 5.


haha! You are right. How is the advertisment? The World's Most Powerful Console!

I think you're both underestimating how taxing these upgrades to other segments of the game are. Not only that, on the One X it's also having to perform all of these upgrades over 5 AND run in 4K & locked 60fps. It's not as simple as "every iteration should look better".

Also Forza 7 on the One X does look better in many ways. Tracks side detail is one of the few downgrades.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#242 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2018 6:59:54 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: JoeDiesle Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
I can't believe why this has to be explained but cest la vie.

Here's why Forza 5 looks better than Forza 7.

1. Less cars on track.
2. No dynamic shadows.
3. No dynamic skyboxes / clouds
4. Baked textures.
5. Less animations such as parts moving in the cockpit, the rear wing moving, etc.
6. No weather whatsoever.
7. Less Physics both in cars & objects like explode-able / flexible tire walls.
8. Worse particle effects such as tire smoke.
9. Less objects to render due to tire walls.

The list goes on & on & on.


You would think with the power of XBOX X this shouldn't be an issue. 7 should look better than 5.


I'd take looking as good as. I mean even on PC which I am on, the game looks worse than 5. I actually feel nostalgic for 5, even though as a game FM7 is better. But I miss the look of 5. The misjudged rush to fuel the 4K hype has thrown the baby out with the bathwater. And there's no excuse for not having higher detail on PC at all. As far as I can see it's just laziness and corner cutting.

I don't care about the technical stuff which is impressive 'on paper' but which doesn't add much or anything to the experience. So 5 had 'baked textures' - okay, is that bad, why should I care if FM7 is more 'advanced' if it doesn't actually look better? This is a classic case of something being less than the sum of its parts. And please, keep the 'weather' - give us back 5's cheerful dry sunny summer days and not the miserable perpetually dark, wet or night time of FM7.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#243 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2018 7:01:51 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: QuadratHund8308 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: JoeDiesle Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
I can't believe why this has to be explained but cest la vie.

Here's why Forza 5 looks better than Forza 7.

1. Less cars on track.
2. No dynamic shadows.
3. No dynamic skyboxes / clouds
4. Baked textures.
5. Less animations such as parts moving in the cockpit, the rear wing moving, etc.
6. No weather whatsoever.
7. Less Physics both in cars & objects like explode-able / flexible tire walls.
8. Worse particle effects such as tire smoke.
9. Less objects to render due to tire walls.

The list goes on & on & on.


You would think with the power of XBOX X this shouldn't be an issue. 7 should look better than 5.


haha! You are right. How is the advertisment? The World's Most Powerful Console!

I think you're both underestimating how taxing these upgrades to other segments of the game are. Not only that, on the One X it's also having to perform all of these upgrades over 5 AND run in 4K & locked 60fps. It's not as simple as "every iteration should look better".

Also Forza 7 on the One X does look better in many ways. Tracks side detail is one of the few downgrades.


So what's the excuse for the downgrade on PC then.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#244 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2018 7:04:47 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: QuadratHund8308 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: JoeDiesle Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
I can't believe why this has to be explained but cest la vie.

Here's why Forza 5 looks better than Forza 7.

1. Less cars on track.
2. No dynamic shadows.
3. No dynamic skyboxes / clouds
4. Baked textures.
5. Less animations such as parts moving in the cockpit, the rear wing moving, etc.
6. No weather whatsoever.
7. Less Physics both in cars & objects like explode-able / flexible tire walls.
8. Worse particle effects such as tire smoke.
9. Less objects to render due to tire walls.

The list goes on & on & on.


You would think with the power of XBOX X this shouldn't be an issue. 7 should look better than 5.


haha! You are right. How is the advertisment? The World's Most Powerful Console!

I think you're both underestimating how taxing these upgrades to other segments of the game are. Not only that, on the One X it's also having to perform all of these upgrades over 5 AND run in 4K & locked 60fps. It's not as simple as "every iteration should look better".

Also Forza 7 on the One X does look better in many ways. Tracks side detail is one of the few downgrades.


So what's the excuse for the downgrade on PC then.

There is none. It shouldn't have been downgraded if it is. However a possible reason is to keep it more in line with the Xbox One X, which if so is unfair & a tad scummy.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#245 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2018 8:33:36 AM(UTC)
The PC version is either forced to be more or less the same graphically as the Xbox One X version or they don't want to spend the resources on making better assets for it.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#246 Posted : Saturday, December 29, 2018 10:53:19 PM(UTC)
sorry, i know this doesn't add anything helpful to the thread but the more i read these comments, i'm convinced forza is and will be primarily optimized around the xbox architecture and with good reason i'm sure.

i suppose, playing it on a pc is a big plus BUT if you want the best experience, then xbox it is. even on the base xbox one it runs very well and the difference in resolution certainly isn't night and day (compared to one-x) if you're playing on a good well-calibrated 1080p TV. the franchise did, after all, start off as an xbox exclusive.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#247 Posted : Wednesday, June 5, 2019 2:51:25 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MCSvelocity Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MalerFlieger Go to Quoted Post
My real complaint about the FM 7 graphics is that it looks on my 1080Ti driven PC exactly the same if not a little bit worse than on the X due to better HDR implementation on the X. I'm riding it on a LG B7 55".
I have the feeling that the reflections on cars are very poor compared to what even Forza 6 Apex offered. When i drive next to opponents cars for example they often look matte and there is something off with the Ambient Occlusion on the cars too, as if they dont interact with the lighting and objects around them and are just put on top of a otherwise coherent surrounding. They have poor or no self-shadowing at all. So they lack depth and that makes the good models look worse than they would normally. Also when i drive in cockpit view and i still can see a part of my bonnet, the reflections on that bonnet are low fps and low textured, it looks, dare i say it, ugly. Those would be areas where Turn10 could've unlocked more bells and whistles for the Win10 version. Give us more gras on the track side, some more bushes, better reflections on cars and better Ambient Occlusion. Tracks in Forza used to look 'rich' in detail, but for some reason in FM7 with a few exceptions (like Dubai) they dont.
I also have some issues with the way fog and spray is handled, it is like its stuck in the ground, it leaves ugly lines on the ground, it does not hover over the ground. The way spray moves behind cars is very nice looking, but its leaving lines in the ground, its as if the layers are a bit glitchy. We did not have this problem on Forza 6 Apex spray.
Compared to GT Sport: Yes, GT has no native 4k. Yes GT has less tracks and cars. But the way the cars interact with light and track is better. They look on track more life-like than our Forza cars and i think its mostly because of the better lighting model/system GT Sport uses.


Digital Foundry has said the lightening on GT Sport are real time, but Forza 7 shadows (I'm guessing most and not all) are baked in already on the track. That is why I mentioned when it come down to details GT Sport is better and thus looks better because of the attention to detail. For gameplay wise (responding to an earlier post) yeah GT Sport's career sucks, but it makes the player to be a better driver. Forza on the other hand holds your hand along the way. People do go hardcore and turn it off, but what about the rest and most of the players? If you want content, Forza is awesome. If you want a game that focuses on the details and make players to become better drivers, GT is getting that job done. Too much influence from Horizon is plaguing Forza 7.


Hey there!

Can you please elaborate/coinfirm if the One-X version has dynamic shadows around track objects like distance markerts and orange hazard cones? I remember seeing them in the X version prior to the last two updates, but someone corrected me in a post I created - saying that the One-X never rendered shadows around stationary trackside objects.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#248 Posted : Wednesday, June 5, 2019 3:29:31 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MCSvelocity Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MalerFlieger Go to Quoted Post
My real complaint about the FM 7 graphics is that it looks on my 1080Ti driven PC exactly the same if not a little bit worse than on the X due to better HDR implementation on the X. I'm riding it on a LG B7 55".
I have the feeling that the reflections on cars are very poor compared to what even Forza 6 Apex offered. When i drive next to opponents cars for example they often look matte and there is something off with the Ambient Occlusion on the cars too, as if they dont interact with the lighting and objects around them and are just put on top of a otherwise coherent surrounding. They have poor or no self-shadowing at all. So they lack depth and that makes the good models look worse than they would normally. Also when i drive in cockpit view and i still can see a part of my bonnet, the reflections on that bonnet are low fps and low textured, it looks, dare i say it, ugly. Those would be areas where Turn10 could've unlocked more bells and whistles for the Win10 version. Give us more gras on the track side, some more bushes, better reflections on cars and better Ambient Occlusion. Tracks in Forza used to look 'rich' in detail, but for some reason in FM7 with a few exceptions (like Dubai) they dont.
I also have some issues with the way fog and spray is handled, it is like its stuck in the ground, it leaves ugly lines on the ground, it does not hover over the ground. The way spray moves behind cars is very nice looking, but its leaving lines in the ground, its as if the layers are a bit glitchy. We did not have this problem on Forza 6 Apex spray.
Compared to GT Sport: Yes, GT has no native 4k. Yes GT has less tracks and cars. But the way the cars interact with light and track is better. They look on track more life-like than our Forza cars and i think its mostly because of the better lighting model/system GT Sport uses.


Digital Foundry has said the lightening on GT Sport are real time, but Forza 7 shadows (I'm guessing most and not all) are baked in already on the track. That is why I mentioned when it come down to details GT Sport is better and thus looks better because of the attention to detail. For gameplay wise (responding to an earlier post) yeah GT Sport's career sucks, but it makes the player to be a better driver. Forza on the other hand holds your hand along the way. People do go hardcore and turn it off, but what about the rest and most of the players? If you want content, Forza is awesome. If you want a game that focuses on the details and make players to become better drivers, GT is getting that job done. Too much influence from Horizon is plaguing Forza 7.

Just a few things to address here. A big reason why GT Sport has slightly better detail is because of a few things:

1. The lighting model in GT Sport is pre-baked. It uses ray tracing to pre bake everything hence why there's no dynamic time of day or dynamic lighting model of any kind. The difference between having anything dynamic compared to static is huge. That's why in stuff like trackside detail Forza Motorsport 5 still has the best graphics of any motorsport game even though it's 6 years old. It's because everything is completely pre-baked. The same goes for GT Sport. Forza Motorsport 7 on the other hand has dynamic weather (like 20 different conditions for rain), dynamic time of day both for day & night races, dynamic clouds & skies etc etc. That means the amount processing power Forza needs to render all of these dynamic features is huge & hence the downgrade in graphics.

2. Forza runs at a native 4K 60 FPS, GT Sport doesn't. It's too my knowledge a checkerboard 4K so not native. Again for Forza to run at 4K it just need more overhead & when you're using a large 4K TV, the difference between checkerboard 4K & native is quite big.

If GT Sport was to go dynamic, the downgrade would be huge.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#249 Posted : Wednesday, June 5, 2019 5:56:02 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MCSvelocity Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MalerFlieger Go to Quoted Post
My real complaint about the FM 7 graphics is that it looks on my 1080Ti driven PC exactly the same if not a little bit worse than on the X due to better HDR implementation on the X. I'm riding it on a LG B7 55".
I have the feeling that the reflections on cars are very poor compared to what even Forza 6 Apex offered. When i drive next to opponents cars for example they often look matte and there is something off with the Ambient Occlusion on the cars too, as if they dont interact with the lighting and objects around them and are just put on top of a otherwise coherent surrounding. They have poor or no self-shadowing at all. So they lack depth and that makes the good models look worse than they would normally. Also when i drive in cockpit view and i still can see a part of my bonnet, the reflections on that bonnet are low fps and low textured, it looks, dare i say it, ugly. Those would be areas where Turn10 could've unlocked more bells and whistles for the Win10 version. Give us more gras on the track side, some more bushes, better reflections on cars and better Ambient Occlusion. Tracks in Forza used to look 'rich' in detail, but for some reason in FM7 with a few exceptions (like Dubai) they dont.
I also have some issues with the way fog and spray is handled, it is like its stuck in the ground, it leaves ugly lines on the ground, it does not hover over the ground. The way spray moves behind cars is very nice looking, but its leaving lines in the ground, its as if the layers are a bit glitchy. We did not have this problem on Forza 6 Apex spray.
Compared to GT Sport: Yes, GT has no native 4k. Yes GT has less tracks and cars. But the way the cars interact with light and track is better. They look on track more life-like than our Forza cars and i think its mostly because of the better lighting model/system GT Sport uses.


Digital Foundry has said the lightening on GT Sport are real time, but Forza 7 shadows (I'm guessing most and not all) are baked in already on the track. That is why I mentioned when it come down to details GT Sport is better and thus looks better because of the attention to detail. For gameplay wise (responding to an earlier post) yeah GT Sport's career sucks, but it makes the player to be a better driver. Forza on the other hand holds your hand along the way. People do go hardcore and turn it off, but what about the rest and most of the players? If you want content, Forza is awesome. If you want a game that focuses on the details and make players to become better drivers, GT is getting that job done. Too much influence from Horizon is plaguing Forza 7.

Just a few things to address here. A big reason why GT Sport has slightly better detail is because of a few things:

1. The lighting model in GT Sport is pre-baked. It uses ray tracing to pre bake everything hence why there's no dynamic time of day or dynamic lighting model of any kind. The difference between having anything dynamic compared to static is huge. That's why in stuff like trackside detail Forza Motorsport 5 still has the best graphics of any motorsport game even though it's 6 years old. It's because everything is completely pre-baked. The same goes for GT Sport. Forza Motorsport 7 on the other hand has dynamic weather (like 20 different conditions for rain), dynamic time of day both for day & night races, dynamic clouds & skies etc etc. That means the amount processing power Forza needs to render all of these dynamic features is huge & hence the downgrade in graphics.

2. Forza runs at a native 4K 60 FPS, GT Sport doesn't. It's too my knowledge a checkerboard 4K so not native. Again for Forza to run at 4K it just need more overhead & when you're using a large 4K TV, the difference between checkerboard 4K & native is quite big.

If GT Sport was to go dynamic, the downgrade would be huge.


To clarify:

Forza Motorsport & Horizon's lighting is pre-baked exactly the same way GT Sport is (using lightprobes scattered around the tracks) The only differenceis that Horizon & some Forza 7 tracks have their light probes update at run-time with pre-baked data set a different T-o-D to simulate a dynamic sky. As a matter of fact GT sport, just like Forza horizon (& unlike Forza 7 which has it's lighting and shadows baked) has real-time shadows on the scenery/tracks (that's why track shadows pop and flicker badly). The IBL lighing from the Sky Box in Forza 7 only affects the contrats, lenvirement lighting but not the shadows (unlike Forza Horizon) because those are baked into the track. As a matter of fact the lighting bug during night racing which has been fixed clearly showed that.

GT Sport looks "better" in replays (not so much during racing) because Polyphony has tweaked its shaders to be more lifelike while turn10/Playground always have a over contrasty/pristine look. GT Sport has better head/tail lights rendering (FH4 now has the same). Better specular reflections on the cars (Horizon 4 now has the same solution on xbox one x & PC so it should pop up in Forza 8 later). GT Sports replays run at 60Fps but 30% of the screen is cropped (= lower res). GT Sports has more realstic camera angles and most importantly makes heavy use of DoF (which Forza barely does unfortunately (artistic decision given that Froza 5 had more DoF during replays..)

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#250 Posted : Wednesday, June 5, 2019 10:58:35 AM(UTC)
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My real complaint about the FM 7 graphics is that it looks on my 1080Ti driven PC exactly the same if not a little bit worse than on the X due to better HDR implementation on the X. I'm riding it on a LG B7 55".
I have the feeling that the reflections on cars are very poor compared to what even Forza 6 Apex offered. When i drive next to opponents cars for example they often look matte and there is something off with the Ambient Occlusion on the cars too, as if they dont interact with the lighting and objects around them and are just put on top of a otherwise coherent surrounding. They have poor or no self-shadowing at all. So they lack depth and that makes the good models look worse than they would normally. Also when i drive in cockpit view and i still can see a part of my bonnet, the reflections on that bonnet are low fps and low textured, it looks, dare i say it, ugly. Those would be areas where Turn10 could've unlocked more bells and whistles for the Win10 version. Give us more gras on the track side, some more bushes, better reflections on cars and better Ambient Occlusion. Tracks in Forza used to look 'rich' in detail, but for some reason in FM7 with a few exceptions (like Dubai) they dont.
I also have some issues with the way fog and spray is handled, it is like its stuck in the ground, it leaves ugly lines on the ground, it does not hover over the ground. The way spray moves behind cars is very nice looking, but its leaving lines in the ground, its as if the layers are a bit glitchy. We did not have this problem on Forza 6 Apex spray.
Compared to GT Sport: Yes, GT has no native 4k. Yes GT has less tracks and cars. But the way the cars interact with light and track is better. They look on track more life-like than our Forza cars and i think its mostly because of the better lighting model/system GT Sport uses.


Digital Foundry has said the lightening on GT Sport are real time, but Forza 7 shadows (I'm guessing most and not all) are baked in already on the track. That is why I mentioned when it come down to details GT Sport is better and thus looks better because of the attention to detail. For gameplay wise (responding to an earlier post) yeah GT Sport's career sucks, but it makes the player to be a better driver. Forza on the other hand holds your hand along the way. People do go hardcore and turn it off, but what about the rest and most of the players? If you want content, Forza is awesome. If you want a game that focuses on the details and make players to become better drivers, GT is getting that job done. Too much influence from Horizon is plaguing Forza 7.

Just a few things to address here. A big reason why GT Sport has slightly better detail is because of a few things:

1. The lighting model in GT Sport is pre-baked. It uses ray tracing to pre bake everything hence why there's no dynamic time of day or dynamic lighting model of any kind. The difference between having anything dynamic compared to static is huge. That's why in stuff like trackside detail Forza Motorsport 5 still has the best graphics of any motorsport game even though it's 6 years old. It's because everything is completely pre-baked. The same goes for GT Sport. Forza Motorsport 7 on the other hand has dynamic weather (like 20 different conditions for rain), dynamic time of day both for day & night races, dynamic clouds & skies etc etc. That means the amount processing power Forza needs to render all of these dynamic features is huge & hence the downgrade in graphics.

2. Forza runs at a native 4K 60 FPS, GT Sport doesn't. It's too my knowledge a checkerboard 4K so not native. Again for Forza to run at 4K it just need more overhead & when you're using a large 4K TV, the difference between checkerboard 4K & native is quite big.

If GT Sport was to go dynamic, the downgrade would be huge.


To clarify:

Forza Motorsport & Horizon's lighting is pre-baked exactly the same way GT Sport is (using lightprobes scattered around the tracks) The only differenceis that Horizon & some Forza 7 tracks have their light probes update at run-time with pre-baked data set a different T-o-D to simulate a dynamic sky. As a matter of fact GT sport, just like Forza horizon (& unlike Forza 7 which has it's lighting and shadows baked) has real-time shadows on the scenery/tracks (that's why track shadows pop and flicker badly). The IBL lighing from the Sky Box in Forza 7 only affects the contrats, lenvirement lighting but not the shadows (unlike Forza Horizon) because those are baked into the track. As a matter of fact the lighting bug during night racing which has been fixed clearly showed that.

GT Sport looks "better" in replays (not so much during racing) because Polyphony has tweaked its shaders to be more lifelike while turn10/Playground always have a over contrasty/pristine look. GT Sport has better head/tail lights rendering (FH4 now has the same). Better specular reflections on the cars (Horizon 4 now has the same solution on xbox one x & PC so it should pop up in Forza 8 later). GT Sports replays run at 60Fps but 30% of the screen is cropped (= lower res). GT Sports has more realstic camera angles and most importantly makes heavy use of DoF (which Forza barely does unfortunately (artistic decision given that Froza 5 had more DoF during replays..)


To clarify a few things:

Yes Forza's lighting system is baked to an extent because the dynamic lighting is using a run time to update like you said, but that's still offering thing like a dynamic sun, clouds, skybox, saturation, contrast, brightness etc. The only thing that is actually 100% pre-baked is shadow movement from objects to my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong.

You're correct that GT Sport looks better in racing more than gameplay. In gameplay they both look there or there abouts but in replays certainly GTS has an advantage through, like you said, better shaders.

Few things I disagree with however:

No GTS doesn't have better head & tail light rendering. The reason FM7's head & tail light rendering is poor is due to extremely poor HDR calibration. I'll try & quote what I said about how to calibrate the HDR better which I posted in another thread. If you do this, the head & tail light problems are solved instantly & look stunning. It's just Turn 10 screwing up their HDR calibration probably though laziness. Though if you try it & think it looks worse, fair enough.

"I'll look into it & see what I can do.

I'd recommend for one doing this right out the bat:

1. In game max out both HDR Gamma & HDR Brightness.
2. Turn the brightness down on your TV until the grey Forza logo is barely visable so that if you go one click lower it dissapears.
3. Then adjust the in-game HDR gamma to make it even less visable if possible. It usually goes down only by one click in-game before dissapearing."

"The HDR setting in Forza is very poorly calibrated. I set my TV up to be as accurate as possible but using settings that experts used a Kleiner on to get stuff like most accurate colours, what settings to use, etc & just tweaked it slightly from there.

If people do buy the One X PLEASE, PLEASE set up your TV correctly. If you even have a moderately modern TV, you'll probably find settings online to get the most realistic & best picture quality. It doesn't take much to Google your TV & do a bit of research to set it up to the best of its ability. There's been quite a few of my friends who bought the One X & were disappointed, but it's because they didn't calibrate their TV's correctly what so ever, so when they did it made the world of difference.

I'd say HDR support is actually the thing that boosts the game the most, but it's terribly calibrated in Forza Motorsport 7. It has way too bright white light. You lose so just detail in the sky especially. I maxed out the in-game HDR brightness & gamma, then lowered the brightness on my TV until the dark forza logo was just visible, a click lower & it disappears, then I reduced the gamma by one until it was just barely visible. Again a click lower & it wouldn't be visable.

The amount of detail you gain by doing this is ridiculous. The game is less saturated & more muted like irl. There's less bloom effect on white cars, though it's still there. The sun actual is visible & the sky has way more detail to it."

Better Spectacular reflections on cars is a really interesting one. It's a yes & no. From my testing it's actually mainly down to the fact that FM7's paints have a huge amount of refractive index. I'll sow you the difference between stock paints & mine which have far less refractive index:



This BMW i8 shows it off perfectly. The roof which cannot be re-painted from the stock paint has a high refractive index which makes the reflections distorted & ugly. The sides which I repainted with very little refractive index paint looks clear & stunning. I think the problem isn't the actual lighting model rather than the paint model.

Here's a direct comparison here:


Stock


Mine

There's a big difference in detail, distortion & clarity imo.

Camera angles in replays look amazing in GTS but their chase cam looks so cartoony, wooden & has no sense of speed. Can't wait for the new PS5 & Xbox whatever, should see big steps from both games!

Sorry for the long post btw aha!



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