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Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#76 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 9:50:45 AM(UTC)
Nonsense excuse.

I luckily have enough CPU horsepower to work past this but I'm betting the console version doesn't rely on one thread does it? DOES IT?

This game should have excellent multithreading in this day and age. If it doesn't fire your programmers and everyone to do with the game engine. They aren't doing their job properly.
Rank: Driver's License
 1 user liked this post.
#77 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 9:55:59 AM(UTC)
Considering the PC market it changing into multicore cpu's from 2017 and onwards this is very strange! ( AMD ryzen and intels new 8 core mainstream cpu in 2018 ) And people with older hardware that have low single core performance will suffer greatly that would otherwise been more than enough if all threads were used! I myself only got an i5-6600k but its running at 4.6ghz overclocked so I am fairly ok. But this is disgusting Turn10! If you want to be a part of the PC market, this is not the way...
Rank: Driver's License
 5 users liked this post.
#78 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 10:20:22 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SOY Go to Quoted Post
Hello everyone,

Some users may notice that the game utilizes nearly 100% of one of their processor cores. This is expected behavior; we intentionally run in this manner so we can react as fast as possible in order to minimize input latency. Users on power-constrained devices, such as laptops and tablets, might want to use a Performance Target of “30 FPS (V-SYNC),” which will reduce processor usage and minimize power consumption.


Turn 10, I highly recommend you do a proper press release or news announcement about this. Or even a sticky forum post at the top of this forum.

For one, as you might have noticed, the reaction to your post has not been positive. People are angry. The demo is not working great for them and they are worried that the full game will not work well either. Understandably so. I myself am thinking about cancelling my Ultimate pre order to wait for the retail release. I haven't decided yet.

It looks like this message has run away from you in ways you perhaps did not intend - so perhaps a little PR work might save Turn 10 some pre orders. It has even made the news on several websites such as wccftech.

Next thing - can you explain to me how having a core bump up against its limit is good for input latency? I mean, by the sounds of it, the opposite is happening - stuttering which to me sounds like it would cause worse latency. If the processor core is too busy processing your main game loop, it sounds like input may have to be dropped to keep the frame rate up. Now it has been a while since I have programmed any games, so perhaps I am wrong.

I certainly don't want to tell you guys at Turn 10 how to do your jobs because I think you guys are very good at it. But, if I could give you one piece of advice, it would be to ask Playground games if you can port their multithreading code into Forza Motorsport 7 and make it optional - disabled by default. That way, your users will be able to test both and see which one works best for them. I'm guessing that you guys must have had good reasons for doing what you did, but surely it won't hurt to let users try both and see which one they like better? Even if it does indeed make input latency worse as you claim, perhaps that is something users would prefer to live with rather than stuttering and dropped frames?

Just my 2c, use it or don't, up to you.
Rank: Driver's Permit
 3 users liked this post.
#79 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 10:20:30 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SOY Go to Quoted Post
Hello everyone,

Some users may notice that the game utilizes nearly 100% of one of their processor cores. This is expected behavior; we intentionally run in this manner so we can react as fast as possible in order to minimize input latency. Users on power-constrained devices, such as laptops and tablets, might want to use a Performance Target of “30 FPS (V-SYNC),” which will reduce processor usage and minimize power consumption.


Are you f****** serious?
Rank: C-Class Racing License
 5 users liked this post.
#80 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 10:21:55 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SOY Go to Quoted Post
Hello everyone,

Some users may notice that the game utilizes nearly 100% of one of their processor cores. This is expected behavior; we intentionally run in this manner so we can react as fast as possible in order to minimize input latency. Users on power-constrained devices, such as laptops and tablets, might want to use a Performance Target of “30 FPS (V-SYNC),” which will reduce processor usage and minimize power consumption.


Rubbish.

Complete and utter rubbish, I know you are the "new guy" round these parts but that won't make me take it easy on you, especially though as you are apparently "just the messenger".

Get back to the developers and make them reverse this move IMMEDIATELY and let powerful systems use as many multi-cores and threads as possible. No other game i've ever ever played suffers from this, quite frankly made up sounding, issue. Pcars 1/2, AC, Iracing you name it, they all run multi core without issue.

What were you THINKING?! "Build from the ground up for PC" and you don't even know how they work...wonderful, faith restored. NOT.

Reverse this now. It's not too late!

Talk about a PR nightmare...this game has been atrociously communicated over the last 12 weeks. Agonisingly left in the dark over details (day one car pack info WHEN?) less than 1% "new" cars to the series overall, no new tracks and now the performance is coming into question. What else guys, Ford and VW decide they changed their minds and don't want their cars in game anymore? Nothing would surprise me right now.

Edited by user Friday, September 22, 2017 10:27:50 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#81 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 10:33:43 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SOY Go to Quoted Post
Some users may notice that the game utilizes nearly 100% of one of their processor cores. This is expected behavior; we intentionally run in this manner so we can react as fast as possible in order to minimize input latency. Users on power-constrained devices, such as laptops and tablets, might want to use a Performance Target of “30 FPS (V-SYNC),” which will reduce processor usage and minimize power consumption.


Using multiple cores would reduce frame and input latency, not increase it.
Rank: Driver's License
#82 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 11:31:39 AM(UTC)
It's strange - despite this thread having recent replies in it, it appears midway down the page in the forum. Not at the top like it should be.

In any case, a quick Google reveals that several game news outlets have picked up the story about maxing out a single core and some are already calling it bogus. Turn10, time to dispatch the PR drones!

Thinking about it, there are a few possibilities:
The demo is from an old build that did not have Forza Horizon 3's thread balancing work in it and Soy is merely misinformed about this.
The demo is from an old build, but, Soy is correct in that Forza 7 uses a different threading model than FH3 and this is by design.
The demo is from an old build, and while Soy is correct in that Forza 7's threading behaviour is different by design, this is still something that will be improved in a future patch.

If #1 is true, I'll be a happy man. If #2 is true, I'll request a refund. If #3 is true, I will not play the game until this patch is released.

Problem with #3 is how do you know if they really will patch it?
Rank: Racing Permit
#83 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 11:32:28 AM(UTC)
He says SOME users, not all. Y'all are losing your minds (and now there are articles out there apparently) about the game being constrained to one core, but that's not what he said and it isn't the case for all. See my system (i5-6600k @3.5, GTX1060 6GB, 16GB DDR4) clearly utilizing all 4 cores:
https://i.imgur.com/BUO7PiX.jpg

It isn't always running perfectly but it's never running on just one core, for me.

Edited by user Friday, September 22, 2017 11:33:12 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Emphasize it's using all cores, not one.

Rank: Driver's License
#84 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 12:14:23 PM(UTC)
Ok i had massive Problems after i installed the new Driver today. I just disconnected my Television from my Graphic Card and its all fine now.
The Television even dropped my FPS hard while it was off. Try it guys, maybe it will help you too.
Rank: Racing Permit
#85 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 12:19:06 PM(UTC)
SOY is just the messenger. Don't shoot them.
Rank: Driver's Permit
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#86 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 12:33:53 PM(UTC)
if he says it's for some users, then maybe it's only for people who use dual core processors like pentium/i3/ultrabook cpu's (allthough i have a 6100)
Rank: Driver's License
 1 user liked this post.
#87 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 3:26:02 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SOY Go to Quoted Post
Hello everyone,

Some users may notice that the game utilizes nearly 100% of one of their processor cores. This is expected behavior; we intentionally run in this manner so we can react as fast as possible in order to minimize input latency. Users on power-constrained devices, such as laptops and tablets, might want to use a Performance Target of “30 FPS (V-SYNC),” which will reduce processor usage and minimize power consumption.


Are you serious ? You are talking about IMPUT LATENCY and then you recommend 30 FPS (V-SYNC) ?
Have you learned nothing from Horizon 3 which had the same problem ? You've patched that, so now it runs flawlessly on my PC. So how can you say it's intentional now, when it wasn't before you've fixed it ?
And after what was said in interviews, that you've learned form FH3 and such, this really doesn't add up.
Could you explain please, I really don't understand this ...

Edited by user Friday, September 22, 2017 4:20:26 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

i7 6700K
Kingston Predator DDR4 16GB 3Ghz
MSI GTX 1070 Gaming X
Dell U2515H 1440p
Made from the ground up for PC - Bill Giese
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#88 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 4:54:36 PM(UTC)
I understand the frustrations of people not getting the game to work, bad performance, crashes and such, i really do. but ...

You guys do realize that employers working at game companies won't tell you any internal company, coding knowledge or any other internal knowledge without the supervisors approval (Non Disclosure Agreements, Trade secrets etc). so you can be angry and scream what you want, unless they go PR (public) about it themselves, don't expect a whole public technical explanation on a public forum (as you can see how quick the media picks it up and they love to twist and dramatize stories in the worst way possible to make something bad look like the apocalypse, because as for the media, this is all about income and money), same as for any other kind of company. mainly money and business-reputation.

https://en.wikipedia.org...Non-disclosure_agreement

Edited by user Friday, September 22, 2017 4:55:25 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
 2 users liked this post.
#89 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 5:02:42 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SOY Go to Quoted Post
Hello everyone,

Some users may notice that the game utilizes nearly 100% of one of their processor cores. This is expected behavior; we intentionally run in this manner so we can react as fast as possible in order to minimize input latency. Users on power-constrained devices, such as laptops and tablets, might want to use a Performance Target of “30 FPS (V-SYNC),” which will reduce processor usage and minimize power consumption.


LOLOLOLOOLO<L

T10 really know nothing about PC do they?
Rank: B-Class Racing License
 2 users liked this post.
#90 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 5:09:06 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SOY Go to Quoted Post
Hello everyone,

Some users may notice that the game utilizes nearly 100% of one of their processor cores. This is expected behavior; we intentionally run in this manner so we can react as fast as possible in order to minimize input latency. Users on power-constrained devices, such as laptops and tablets, might want to use a Performance Target of “30 FPS (V-SYNC),” which will reduce processor usage and minimize power consumption.


Thanks for the post, you just saved me from wasting a lot of money on this game.
Rank: Driver's Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#91 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 5:23:03 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SOY Go to Quoted Post
Hello everyone,

Some users may notice that the game utilizes nearly 100% of one of their processor cores. This is expected behavior; we intentionally run in this manner so we can react as fast as possible in order to minimize input latency. Users on power-constrained devices, such as laptops and tablets, might want to use a Performance Target of “30 FPS (V-SYNC),” which will reduce processor usage and minimize power consumption.


Oh. so.... We've got minimize input latency and also random crash, frame drops, stuttering.

Edited by user Friday, September 22, 2017 6:41:24 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#92 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 6:05:29 PM(UTC)
Neogaf already has a similar thread (no pun intended) as this. Hopefully Digital Foundry also points this out. This is my PC:

FX 6300 @ 3.5GHZ
GTX 760 AMP! EDITION 2GB
4X2 GB RAM @1600
1TB 7200RPM HDD (installed the demo there)
650w PSU

1080p 30 FPS performance has been pretty good with the high preset. If anything this game is effectively less GPU and VRAM hungry than horizon 3. But I figured out that with my pc I could at least match the mighty Xbox one with it's "to the metal pixie dust coding brought to you by DX12" and run the game at 1080p 60 FPS with the medium preset. But the game is a stuttery mess with huge load times as well. I feel like I am running a blend test of Prime 95 in the background...

- Fix the load times
- Fix Multithreading
- Taking less than 6 months would be nice.
- Please explain if this game is so reliant on single core performance... Why an FX 8350 is a requirement for 60 FPS and the FX 6300 only for 30 FPS? If anything, by stating that I would have thought that the game would take advantage of 8 threads hence the difference in requirements. 8350 is only clocked 14% higher than 6300. For instance, here's a Vishera review with a Starcraft 2 benchmark, notorious for requiring high single thread performance.

https://www.anandtech.co...300-and-fx4300-tested/5

Only one or 2 FPS difference. Single core performance is almost the same. Why am I saying all this? Because if Turn 10 could fix this issue the game will be enjoyed at 60 FPS by almost anyone with a half decent machine, and maxing one core all the time can stress the hardware in vain. Even users with high end Intel CPU's that can already hit 60 FPS will have less stuttering. Besides, how can we play this game at 144 FPS with the game coded like this? Probably 7700k on liquid nitrogen would do the trick.

Edited by user Saturday, September 23, 2017 6:08:29 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
#93 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 8:50:37 PM(UTC)
I have a ryzen 7 @ 3900mhz with a 1080ti and I cannot get a stable framerate on any settings, even 1080p on low settings its a big mess in framerates I don't have problems with gears of war 4 from windows store but I do have problems in Forza 6 Apex but not this severe.

It seems to only use 2 cores, but only one maxed so the other core is proberbly just doing some stuff in the background :(
Terrible so far hope they fix it before release
Rank: Driver's Permit
#94 Posted : Friday, September 22, 2017 11:01:40 PM(UTC)
so they are polling for input 9999 times a second instead of on every frame? Thats dumb. Meanwhile literally every game that uses xinput.dll doesn't require this and has no* input lag
*they probably have very minor amounts but you aren't likely to notice this with high framerates as input is tied to framerate which is how it should be here.
Rank: Racing Permit
#95 Posted : Saturday, September 23, 2017 1:03:54 AM(UTC)
7700k /1080ti / gsync monitor, high fps, but game shutters a lot. Same problem like in every DX12 MS game.

Edited by user Saturday, September 23, 2017 1:19:07 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#96 Posted : Saturday, September 23, 2017 2:05:40 AM(UTC)
Damage control?

Quote:
Microsoft PR reached out to us in regards to this topic, delivering a statement from Turn 10’s Studio Software Architect Chris Tector. You can find it in its entirety below.

Forza Motorsport 7 is not limited to running on one core. There seems to have been a miscommunication along the way. “Forza Motorsport 7” uses as many cores as are available on whatever system it runs on, whether that is a 4- to 16-core PC or the 7 cores available on Xbox One.


http://wccftech.com/turn...-motorsport-7-one-core/

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#97 Posted : Saturday, September 23, 2017 4:30:34 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Aumanil Go to Quoted Post
7700k /1080ti / gsync monitor, high fps, but game shutters a lot. Same problem like in every DX12 MS game.


That's weird. I have a 6700K and 1080ti running on a Gsync monitor with no issues. I mean, the Demo isn't perfect; it starts off windowed and I have to ALT+Enter to fullscreen it, but it's usually fine after that. I have everything set to maximum, but I have motion blur and lens flare disabled. I can run the windows game bar recording software while racing, and it runs fine. Here is a video I recorded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk3kEaRRX9Q

Edit: Make sure in Nvidia Control Panel under Manage 3D settings, that you have the following settings:

https://imgur.com/a/xUGrV

Edited by user Saturday, September 23, 2017 4:36:45 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
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#98 Posted : Saturday, September 23, 2017 4:52:26 AM(UTC)
I don't usually post here, but hopefully this will get some developer attention.

The game is not limited to only using one thread, it just puts most of the CPU load on a single thread.
It also seems that once you have enough cores/threads available, it starts putting that load on two threads instead of one - though I'm not sure that's actually doing anything to improve performance.

I get extremely bad stuttering, frametimes, and low GPU usage when running the demo in its default state on my PC.

  • Ryzen 7 1700X at 3.9GHz
  • 32GB DDR4-2666
  • 8GB GTX 1070 Strix OC
  • 1TB Samsung 960 Evo NVMe SSD

This system should have no trouble running the game when it manages to stay locked to 60 FPS on an Xbox One with its low-power Jaguar CPU.
Windows 10 is fully updated (Creators Update, not insider builds), and all drivers are the latest available - including the latest NVIDIA driver with a profile for the game.
The game has basically the same problem as Apex, and Horizon 3 before "threaded optimization" was patched in.


Very bad framepacing and low GPU utilization.
This is a clip of how the game runs by default. All graphical options are at the lowest setting, except resolution. (3440x1440)
Very bad frametimes, poor GPU utilization, and extremely bad stuttering. This is unplayable.


Significantly improved frametimes, and much better GPU usage.
This is a clip of the same section after the Game Mode + Process Affinity tweaks mentioned above.
There are still sections on the tracks which always stutter, causing a frametime spike and drop in GPU usage, but this is a significant improvement.
If it doesn't look perfectly smooth, that's just the video. The frametime graph is accurate to how it's running. You should be able to at least see a significant improvement.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#99 Posted : Saturday, September 23, 2017 5:34:54 AM(UTC)
Ok guys, I think I have found the source of all our issues.


It's GAME MODE - because the game utilises one core @ 100% and GAME MODE elevates the game exe priority as well as other things it is basically like running a HIGH PRIORITY stress test on one core while you game.

Turn off GAME MODE for this game and it's back to being smooth for me.

Hope it works for you guys as well.


I tried this because of LTT video where they saw a real performance impact when game mode was on in some games.

Remember to restart the game after you disable game mode in the settings bar.


Win.

Edited by user Saturday, September 23, 2017 5:41:42 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#100 Posted : Saturday, September 23, 2017 6:28:34 AM(UTC)
I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of people who have issues is because of the Windows 10 creators update that Microsoft has acknowledged does make games stutter.

I've run it on 2 PCs now and I get no issues. Guess I got lucky.
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