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Rank: D-Class Racing License
#26 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2018 2:08:01 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: nemesis464 Go to Quoted Post

Normally I wouldn't respond to you because I've you trolling with the blind fanboy persona in multiple threads, but I'll bite.

You want me to go and video myself doing circuit races where I maintain similar lap times throughout, but the AI speed is dramatically different?

Just yesterday I had a race where the average AI 2nd lap time was around 1:30 then jumped to 1:15 on the last lap.


Don't be so naive. Rubberbanding has been a staple in the Forza franchise, they're not going to take it out randomly for this one.


I'm waiting. Just lemme know on Xbox when you've done it, and I'll tell you why you're wrong.
Rank: Racing Permit
#27 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2018 3:35:26 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: nemesis464 Go to Quoted Post


-Around the 80-90% mark, a few cars appear out of nowhere, gaining ground on me in an impossibly quick manner. The final corner usually has an AI attempting to pass me, who has suddently developed freakishy good grip and the inability to be slowed down by terrain or objects.
.


I thought i was the only one. The AI magically gets better near the end of the race.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#28 Posted : Saturday, October 13, 2018 6:36:08 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: nemesis464 Go to Quoted Post

Normally I wouldn't respond to you because I've you trolling with the blind fanboy persona in multiple threads, but I'll bite.

You want me to go and video myself doing circuit races where I maintain similar lap times throughout, but the AI speed is dramatically different?

Just yesterday I had a race where the average AI 2nd lap time was around 1:30 then jumped to 1:15 on the last lap.


Don't be so naive. Rubberbanding has been a staple in the Forza franchise, they're not going to take it out randomly for this one.


Given that it's been over 24 hours, I'm guessing you couldn't find any evidence supporting your statement. Thought so.
Rank: Racing Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#29 Posted : Saturday, October 13, 2018 11:56:54 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: XCELRATE Go to Quoted Post
yet it takes what could be a boring finish and adds some excitement. if you prefer less of the challenge just lower the difficulty. or raise the difficulty and finish 2nd or 3rd which will also help when you go online and match up with some faster drivers.

lol yeah because scripted AI is so exciting.

Anyway, what I've noticed is the cars have different properties on different difficulties. The cars all drive on rails but in earlier corners they can have a pile up and sometimes if their cars can be unpredictable, probably because of the road surface which can cause them to crash into other cars. On Pro, the front 2 cars are always fastest, positions 4-8 are just blockers to prevent you passing. On unbeatable, I think it's something more like 1-4 are fastest and 5-10 are blockers. You can also see the funkiness in leaderboards. In some races you only have 4 cars being raced by 12 people.

The leaderboard ends up looking something like this.

1. Your car (Brand A)
2. Brand B
3. Brand C
4. Brand D
then a 10 second gap
5. Brand A
6. Brand B
7. Brand C
8. Brand D
then a 10 second gap
9. Brand A
10. Brand B
11. Brand C
12. Brand D

there is no consistency between the performance of the cars and the drivers are no different in skill. It's a very artificial result and each car is assigned artificial modifiers to make them challenging. I think in higher difficulties, the cars just get a base stat boost like "Cars are 25% better". I'm not sure what is going on, I just know it feels very artificial, a lot more than in FH3 which also felt artificial but it seems a lot worse now.

Edited by user Sunday, October 14, 2018 12:08:34 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
 3 users liked this post.
#30 Posted : Sunday, October 14, 2018 12:36:33 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Munithe EXT Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: XCELRATE Go to Quoted Post
yet it takes what could be a boring finish and adds some excitement. if you prefer less of the challenge just lower the difficulty. or raise the difficulty and finish 2nd or 3rd which will also help when you go online and match up with some faster drivers.

lol yeah because scripted AI is so exciting.

Anyway, what I've noticed is the cars have different properties on different difficulties. The cars all drive on rails but in earlier corners they can have a pile up and sometimes if their cars can be unpredictable, probably because of the road surface which can cause them to crash into other cars. On Pro, the front 2 cars are always fastest, positions 4-8 are just blockers to prevent you passing. On unbeatable, I think it's something more like 1-4 are fastest and 5-10 are blockers. You can also see the funkiness in leaderboards. In some races you only have 4 cars being raced by 12 people.

The leaderboard ends up looking something like this.

1. Your car (Brand A)
2. Brand B
3. Brand C
4. Brand D
then a 10 second gap
5. Brand A
6. Brand B
7. Brand C
8. Brand D
then a 10 second gap
9. Brand A
10. Brand B
11. Brand C
12. Brand D

there is no consistency between the performance of the cars and the drivers are no different in skill. It's a very artificial result and each car is assigned artificial modifiers to make them challenging. I think in higher difficulties, the cars just get a base stat boost like "Cars are 25% better". I'm not sure what is going on, I just know it feels very artificial, a lot more than in FH3 which also felt artificial but it seems a lot worse now.


On Expert (and possibly Highly Skilled as well), it's one car. Unbeatable is overall more difficult, but the same principles apply. You start lower and you must make your way through blocking in order to reach the leaders.

What you're also right about is the fact it feels artificial. Forza AI is atrocious in sharp corners and seems to benefit more from drafting than you do. Doesn't change the fact the cars in Forza Horizon are all matched to yours so the game never pits you against "realistic" builds. They're all simplified estimates of what an A797 or something car would be compared to yours. Being an estimate allows the devs to manipulate the AI's performance as they see fit, boosting and nerfing these cars however they want.

Such is true that you can exploit the AI by running dominant builds. In FH3 it was all too easy to destroy the Drivatars with the standard high-powered AWD car. Meanwhile, grip cars struggled, even on tight tracks. On dirt the rally tires allowed you to corner much faster than the AI, but the broken PI system along with the low penalty to road tires on dirt meant that they could catch up to you on the straights.

Delusional people like SuperHornet who should already have been banned for constant harassment of others might think it's a good system because, in their heads, "I can beat it, so it's fair!". Seriously, why are you gloating? What are you, 13 years old? lol This is Forza Horizon. It's not iRacing. You're not a pro. Who cares that you can run circles about Unbeatable AI? Congratulations, you earned yourself a cookie. I thought the fun in gaming was in the thrill of a fair challenge, not to show off.
R.I.P. 24 Heures du Mans

26/05/1923 - 17/06/2018
Rank: Racing Permit
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#31 Posted : Sunday, October 14, 2018 12:49:59 AM(UTC)
Yeah I get what people are saying, they might enjoy the challenge of artificial 'on-rails' racing with arbitrary modifiers. I would prefer something that felt more realistic and believable. It's like when you go to a baseball game, you go to watch teams play against eachother, not to watch a batter play against a pitching machine.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#32 Posted : Sunday, October 14, 2018 7:56:32 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post

Delusional people like SuperHornet who should already have been banned for constant harassment of others might think it's a good system because, in their heads, "I can beat it, so it's fair!". Seriously, why are you gloating? What are you, 13 years old? lol This is Forza Horizon. It's not iRacing. You're not a pro. Who cares that you can run circles about Unbeatable AI? Congratulations, you earned yourself a cookie. I thought the fun in gaming was in the thrill of a fair challenge, not to show off.


Not harrassing anyone, I'm just trying to get people to show me evidence to support themselves. Yet not a single person has been able to show me. If it's so common, how is it so hard? I was easily able to show that rubber-banding wasn't a thing, and everyone tries to tell me "No you're wrong" even though I DO have evidence.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#33 Posted : Sunday, October 14, 2018 6:21:07 PM(UTC)
If there's no rubberbanding, there's still definitely something odd about the AI. On the Goliath, for example, you'll find that all the AI cars will sit back at almost exactly the same distance throughout the race, and occasionally one or two will break free and catch up stupidly quickly. You then throw a couple blocks, and they almost kind of retreat back into the main pack. It's completely bizarre. So if it's not some weirdo implementation of rubberbanding, it's something else entirely.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#34 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 1:50:07 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post

Delusional people like SuperHornet who should already have been banned for constant harassment of others might think it's a good system because, in their heads, "I can beat it, so it's fair!". Seriously, why are you gloating? What are you, 13 years old? lol This is Forza Horizon. It's not iRacing. You're not a pro. Who cares that you can run circles about Unbeatable AI? Congratulations, you earned yourself a cookie. I thought the fun in gaming was in the thrill of a fair challenge, not to show off.


Not harrassing anyone, I'm just trying to get people to show me evidence to support themselves. Yet not a single person has been able to show me. If it's so common, how is it so hard? I was easily able to show that rubber-banding wasn't a thing, and everyone tries to tell me "No you're wrong" even though I DO have evidence.


Can you provide evidence of the lack of rubber banding? I reread this thread. You've asserted there is no rubber banding, yet I've seen no proof of this from you. Is it on another thread?
The gamer tag is accurate. It's how I've made a living for about 30 years, however I wish was racing cars instead. Sigh
Rank: Racing Legend
 2 users liked this post.
#35 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 3:42:14 PM(UTC)
I will try to bring some sanity to this disagreement regarding rubberbanding.

Firstly I suspect some people have a looser definition of rubberbanding than others. Real rubberbanding is that the AI will match your performance ie they will slow down to let you catchup or speed up to catch you.

Apart from the showcases I do not think we get both aspects of rubberbanding.

Now do the AI speed up to catch us?

I think the reason why we are getting different answers from different people is based on two things.

1. The AI is inconsistent in this game. I am ignoring street scene races. On the rest of the tracks they seem consistent on say 80% of tracks but on the other 20% they either seem way faster than their average speed on the 80% or lower.

2. If rubberbanding exists it is possible to break the rubberband. It is possible to get so far ahead of the AI that they seem to give up trying to catch up (if they ever did). I know SuperHornet has an opinion about why this is but no one on these forums will know the right answer here.

What we know is there are enough people complaining that there is something that the devs should look into.

What I will say is if the AI can be made consistent to match their performance across all tracks that unbeatable should NOT be made any easier. What should be the case is that unbeatable should provide a challenge for the quickest players and every player should be able to find a difficulty that provides them the challenge they need.

I have said this before on these forums - why not have a difficulty sliders like Project Cars and make the end points wide enough to cater for everyone?
I blame the ants.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#36 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 8:46:16 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: WritesCode4Food Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post

Delusional people like SuperHornet who should already have been banned for constant harassment of others might think it's a good system because, in their heads, "I can beat it, so it's fair!". Seriously, why are you gloating? What are you, 13 years old? lol This is Forza Horizon. It's not iRacing. You're not a pro. Who cares that you can run circles about Unbeatable AI? Congratulations, you earned yourself a cookie. I thought the fun in gaming was in the thrill of a fair challenge, not to show off.


Not harrassing anyone, I'm just trying to get people to show me evidence to support themselves. Yet not a single person has been able to show me. If it's so common, how is it so hard? I was easily able to show that rubber-banding wasn't a thing, and everyone tries to tell me "No you're wrong" even though I DO have evidence.


Can you provide evidence of the lack of rubber banding? I reread this thread. You've asserted there is no rubber banding, yet I've seen no proof of this from you. Is it on another thread?


It is on another thread. This one; https://forums.forzamoto...ding-Is-Ridiculous.aspx

Post #9 and post #54

Edited by user Monday, October 15, 2018 8:48:03 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#37 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 11:11:02 PM(UTC)
As I discussed in this thread: https://forums.forzamoto...ding-Is-Ridiculous.aspx

I think SuperHornetA51 might be right. I ran the Derwent Lakeside Sprint in a stock Peel P50 and won in Pro difficulty with no sign of rubber banding. In FH3 when I ran a Sprint using the slowest car in the game completely stock, I had a different result. In FH3, the cars pulled away, I caught them on corners because in FH3 they cornered terribly, then when I was WAY out in front, the 2nd place car got an HP boost and would have passed me were it not for my blocking. The cars were identical and AI should not have caught me like that.

As I mentioned in the other thread, not only did the other stock Peel P50s not pull away, I slowly caught them with smoother driving using a tighter line. I passed the lead car on the first off two turns where I had to ease off the throttle. That was about 65% of the race and after staying very smooth, they did not catch me. Unlike FH3, there was no sudden burst of power to catch me.
The gamer tag is accurate. It's how I've made a living for about 30 years, however I wish was racing cars instead. Sigh
Rank: Racing Permit
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#38 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2018 7:55:48 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Munithe EXT Go to Quoted Post
Yeah I get what people are saying, they might enjoy the challenge of artificial 'on-rails' racing with arbitrary modifiers. I would prefer something that felt more realistic and believable. It's like when you go to a baseball game, you go to watch teams play against eachother, not to watch a batter play against a pitching machine.


This should be the main takeaway: Racing against the AI in Forza Horizon games FEELS artificial, win or lose.

This is bad game design.

AI will never equal human opponents, but players should still have a sense of fairness when racing against the AI which is completely absent from the Forza Horizon series and looks to get even worse as time (the series) goes on.

I have accepted this will be my last FH game (most likely) because not only has the game itself been dumbed down (stripped of meaningful base content that deals directly with racing), but I don't expect PG to actually fix the AI because it's a cheap system that works for consoles limited hardware. Even if the PS5, and XB2 are equal to mid-to-high-end gaming PCs next gen, that is even more reason for them NOT to invest in fixing the AI because it's all about cutting corners, ironically. They gotta put more budget into incorrect car models, botched sound design and most of all up the polygon and shader count because that's what sells games, not the actual quality game play anymore, unfortunately.

P.S. -- What would would help SuperHornet's case if he would just admit their is rubberbanding instead of flat out denying it.

It doesn't matter if he can beat it. I can beat it on lower difficulties, and so can a 12-year old. That's not the point. He doesn't seem to (or want to?) understand the majority of us don't like racing against AI that feels artificial and that many, many have proven time and time again is blatantly unfair & inconsistent. That's what a vast majority of racers want, at all levels: Fair and consistent AI that is FUN to race against, win or lose. Race outcomes that are dependent on driver SKILL (and tuning) rather than pre-scripted algorithms. This isn't happening and people instinctively KNOW it when they come to the forms and question the AI and *gasp* provide proof of their experiences. To blatantly ignore, or gaslight them doesn't help the problem and it certainly doesn't tell PG about a major part of their game that needs redesigning, re-balancing if possible?
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#39 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:52:18 PM(UTC)
I've proposed a way to prove/disprove rubberbanding on this thread:
https://forums.forzamoto...rove-Rubber-Banding.aspx
The gamer tag is accurate. It's how I've made a living for about 30 years, however I wish was racing cars instead. Sigh
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