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Rank: Driver's Permit
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#1 Posted: : Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:09:19 PM(UTC)
So I've been playing FH4 for a while now - got it on launch day - and I have to say, while it's a great game in many ways, there are things that need improving, some of which have, rather annoyingly, been present since FH3/FH2. For me, one of these issues is the AI system, specifically its rubberbanding and auto-upgrading to match the player's car. We'll tackle each of these topics in turn, and then I'll make a case for why there should be an option to turn them each off and on a la Forza Motorsport 4.

First off is the rubber-banding. Sure, this can be great for short races where the whole point of the event is to be a rollercoaster of adrenaline from start to finish. But sometimes, with longer races, it can just get annoying and be pretty immersion-breaking. I'm a fan of longer Blueprints where the name of the game is consistency over a long run, so feeling like I'm constantly under pressure can ruin the atmosphere of the race, making it difficult to fully enjoy it, and even harder to get into the mindset of "just hit your marks and bring the car home."

Of course, the problem of the rubberbanding, while serious in some cases, is made worse by the fact that the AI automatically upgrade their cars to match the player's PI. Again, sure, this can be fine in short races where the octane is high and the racing is supposed to be tight by design. But sometimes you just want to have a race where not every car performs the same. Say, for instance, you want to have a vintage car race. Obviously, you'd never, ever, ever dream of modding, for example, a Jag D-type in real life because that would kill the value of the car, so you want all the other cars to remain unmodified for realism's sake. Or, in another instance, you have a race set up where multiple cars from multiple categories are allowed, and you want to be able to witness each car's strengths and weaknesses, which could make for a very interesting race. Sadly, this just isn't possible in the game right now.

Now, it may seem like I'm 100% against rubberbanding and auto-upgrading AI, but I'm not. Far from it. There are many people who want these things because they play the game differently and/or want different experiences from FH4. They should be able to have their cake and eat it too, just like everyone who plays the game. That's why I want an option to disable or enable both AI auto-upgrading and rubberbanding. Having this options would allow those who always want loads of excitement and close racing to have what they want, while allowing people like me, who are more interested in realistic races where the packs usually wind up much more spread out to get what we'd like as well. Heck, with the option, you could turn either one or both on for short races, and leave them both off for longer endurance races. That's why I think there should be an option for this.
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#2 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:26:21 PM(UTC)
A current alternative to disabling the AI auto-upgrading/rubberbanding would be to tone down the difficulty of the AI, even though it will affect the payout of your races.
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#3 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:39:02 PM(UTC)
There is no rubberbanding.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#4 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:45:25 PM(UTC)
I don't believe there is any rubberbanding in this game, the Drivatars can sometimes behave erratically that's all.
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#5 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:49:03 PM(UTC)
The rubberbanding is not only real, it makes it almost impossible to enjoy racing seriously. The auto upgrades are fine with me 100 percent, but the rubberbanding is just awful. They should at least disable the feature for unbeatable difficulty because with the way it is now, it's a joke. I could sleep, tape the throttle down and still win 15 lap goliath races lol
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#6 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:52:34 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: JDM Panda kun Go to Quoted Post
I could sleep, tape the throttle down and still win 15 lap goliath races lol


I don't see how that supports the "there's rubberbanding" argument.
I've tried time and time again to replicate the rubberbanding that people have been complaining about, but it's just not there for me. I've finished every race on unbeatable, and never have I felt the AI speed up after I pass them.
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#7 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 8:59:31 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: JDM Panda kun Go to Quoted Post
I could sleep, tape the throttle down and still win 15 lap goliath races lol


I don't see how that supports the "there's rubberbanding" argument.
I've tried time and time again to replicate the rubberbanding that people have been complaining about, but it's just not there for me. I've finished every race on unbeatable, and never have I felt the AI speed up after I pass them.


It's not necessarily "speeding up." Its like the game is pulling them along behind you about 3 corners worth (goliath scale.) I can run 2 laps straight and there will be no more than 3 corners worth of distance. I'm actually about to run an experiment now to test the extents of the rubberbanding.
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#8 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 9:23:58 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: JDM Panda kun Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: JDM Panda kun Go to Quoted Post
I could sleep, tape the throttle down and still win 15 lap goliath races lol


I don't see how that supports the "there's rubberbanding" argument.
I've tried time and time again to replicate the rubberbanding that people have been complaining about, but it's just not there for me. I've finished every race on unbeatable, and never have I felt the AI speed up after I pass them.


It's not necessarily "speeding up." Its like the game is pulling them along behind you about 3 corners worth (goliath scale.) I can run 2 laps straight and there will be no more than 3 corners worth of distance. I'm actually about to run an experiment now to test the extents of the rubberbanding.


You're confusing it with the range at which AI physics is applied. If you run the goliath on S2 or X class and watch the AI about 1 minute or so into the race, there's a corner they just can't comprehend and they proceed to fly off course because physics is actually being applied to them. Once you are out of this range, they will be glued to the ground and never make that mistake again, same thing happens for cross country races, outside a certain range, the AI will no longer collide with objects or be affected by different terrain (other than water)
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#9 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 9:42:50 PM(UTC)
I just ran a goliath race on unbeatable difficulty. I waited 2 and a half minutes before I took off. I caught them at the end of the second lap, and then overtook them all within 3 to five corners. I then proceeded to run another 3 laps, at which the a.i., like I said earlier were stuck about 3 corners behind. Rubberbanding at its finest.
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#10 Posted : Thursday, October 11, 2018 11:11:37 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: JDM Panda kun Go to Quoted Post
I just ran a goliath race on unbeatable difficulty. I waited 2 and a half minutes before I took off. I caught them at the end of the second lap, and then overtook them all within 3 to five corners. I then proceeded to run another 3 laps, at which the a.i., like I said earlier were stuck about 3 corners behind. Rubberbanding at its finest.


I literally just explained why this happens.
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#11 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2018 12:00:47 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
There is no rubberbanding.


Of course there is. Take the same difficulty on Goliath with two cars of the same PI but with highly different lap times. I did it with a full downforce 998 Elise GT1 and a 998 Ultima on "unbeatable".
With the Elise I ran 8:30s, with the Ultima 8:10s. The AI followed me on the same distance in both races (right at the edge of the mini-map). The AI doesn't have a fixed pace.

Once the AI is at a certain distance behind or in front of the player it either sticks with the pace (which it obviously can't when racing neck to neck) or slows down for you to get a chance at catching. Sometimes this fails. Especially in cross-country when the AI has enough space to the player and hasn't to bother with obstacles (which aren't loaded properly) anymore. Then it shoots away like a rocket while all other AI cars still remain at your pace.
[img]https://screenshots.firefox.com/9l5o7iCXOoD8697Z/account.xbox.com[/img]

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#12 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2018 1:20:40 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: JDM Panda kun Go to Quoted Post
I just ran a goliath race on unbeatable difficulty. I waited 2 and a half minutes before I took off. I caught them at the end of the second lap, and then overtook them all within 3 to five corners. I then proceeded to run another 3 laps, at which the a.i., like I said earlier were stuck about 3 corners behind. Rubberbanding at its finest.


I literally just explained why this happens.


Why then forza game have never before behave like this? In any other forza game if i drive same race two times against different skill ai my winning marginal is different in both times but in this one winning marginal against unbeatable and highly skifull are same. In fh3 if i drive 50 laps goliath race against highly skifull i would overtaker them by few laps in fh4 i win 50 laps race by 9 seconds. And when i drive little bit longer races it feels that my driving dont matter at all because ai will allways match up with my speed. And it's suck that ai difficult setting dont matter at all at those races only difference between highly skifull and unbeatable is i overtaker highly skifull drivatars faster.
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#13 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2018 2:17:39 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: JDM Panda kun Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: JDM Panda kun Go to Quoted Post
I could sleep, tape the throttle down and still win 15 lap goliath races lol


I don't see how that supports the "there's rubberbanding" argument.
I've tried time and time again to replicate the rubberbanding that people have been complaining about, but it's just not there for me. I've finished every race on unbeatable, and never have I felt the AI speed up after I pass them.


It's not necessarily "speeding up." Its like the game is pulling them along behind you about 3 corners worth (goliath scale.) I can run 2 laps straight and there will be no more than 3 corners worth of distance. I'm actually about to run an experiment now to test the extents of the rubberbanding.


You're confusing it with the range at which AI physics is applied. If you run the goliath on S2 or X class and watch the AI about 1 minute or so into the race, there's a corner they just can't comprehend and they proceed to fly off course because physics is actually being applied to them. Once you are out of this range, they will be glued to the ground and never make that mistake again, same thing happens for cross country races, outside a certain range, the AI will no longer collide with objects or be affected by different terrain (other than water)


Even if it isn't "Rubber-banding", what you described is still broken and needs a fix or at least minimizing, arguing over the semantics of what to call it is far less meaning.
What is important is that some fix or reduction can be found by T10 & PGG

Edited by user Friday, October 12, 2018 2:23:37 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
#14 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 1:13:07 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DnB mclovin Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: JDM Panda kun Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: JDM Panda kun Go to Quoted Post
I could sleep, tape the throttle down and still win 15 lap goliath races lol


I don't see how that supports the "there's rubberbanding" argument.
I've tried time and time again to replicate the rubberbanding that people have been complaining about, but it's just not there for me. I've finished every race on unbeatable, and never have I felt the AI speed up after I pass them.


It's not necessarily "speeding up." Its like the game is pulling them along behind you about 3 corners worth (goliath scale.) I can run 2 laps straight and there will be no more than 3 corners worth of distance. I'm actually about to run an experiment now to test the extents of the rubberbanding.


You're confusing it with the range at which AI physics is applied. If you run the goliath on S2 or X class and watch the AI about 1 minute or so into the race, there's a corner they just can't comprehend and they proceed to fly off course because physics is actually being applied to them. Once you are out of this range, they will be glued to the ground and never make that mistake again, same thing happens for cross country races, outside a certain range, the AI will no longer collide with objects or be affected by different terrain (other than water)


Even if it isn't "Rubber-banding", what you described is still broken and needs a fix or at least minimizing, arguing over the semantics of what to call it is far less meaning.
What is important is that some fix or reduction can be found by T10 & PGG


Agreed. If the AI can flat-out cheat like that, it needs fixing.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#15 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 1:21:38 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SprungBoss9964 Go to Quoted Post

Why then forza game have never before behave like this? In any other forza game if i drive same race two times against different skill ai my winning marginal is different in both times but in this one winning marginal against unbeatable and highly skifull are same. In fh3 if i drive 50 laps goliath race against highly skifull i would overtaker them by few laps in fh4 i win 50 laps race by 9 seconds


Rubberbanding (or claims thereof) is nothing new to Forza, these exact discussions were happening on these forums 2 years ago when FH3 was released
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#16 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 1:37:02 PM(UTC)
it is easy to check that rubberbanding exist

play same race twice, with same car and same difficulty settings
in first race you need to win, in second finish as last one

in 2nd race record lap time for drivatars will be slower than in 1st
funny as the fastest lap in 1st race will be in hands of the slowest drivatar
so why that guy was last if he can drive laps like this? :D
Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#17 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 4:04:01 PM(UTC)
I'm not going to join in on the rubber banding argument as I am not convinced it exists but have seen some strange things on occasion.

However, I would love to disable auto upgrades of AI cars as well as I like running standard cars against each other.

Edited by user Monday, October 15, 2018 4:05:09 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#18 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 4:06:08 PM(UTC)
they do need more options in the blueprint system, like other forzas have in the free race menu. force assists off, force stock upgrade and tunes, stuff like that. maybe it will happen in a later update.

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