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Rank: Driver's Permit
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#1 Posted : Thursday, October 4, 2018 4:34:20 PM(UTC)
I thought FH3 had bad rubberbanding in spots, yet this is somehow even worse. Like, being unable to see AI cars on one corner, and suddenly getting rammed from behind on the next. But it's especially obvious in the Cross Country races, to the point that it's the only series I haven't completed yet, and probably won't.

Between AI that brake check you and/or just smash into you, the idiotic 50ft+ jumps and questionable mid-air physics, and the fact that AI seems to take absolutely zero mechanical damage like you would, it's basically impossible to do these races with Simulation damage on. And even if you turn off damage all together, better hope you don't have to go through standing water or have a steep hill to go up, because both of those will slow you down greatly, it obviously doesn't affect the AI speed at all.

Like, at least the rubberbanding worked both ways in FH3, but in this it's completely for the AI, and even help the player much.
Rank: Racing Permit
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#2 Posted : Thursday, October 4, 2018 5:59:41 PM(UTC)
I agree that the AI can be more difficult to beat in some races, but it was like that in FH3 as well. In some races if I don't get to the front quick enough, the person in 1st is so far ahead it is nearly impossible to catch.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#3 Posted : Thursday, October 4, 2018 9:51:21 PM(UTC)
In the offroad stuff the AI can be hard to catch let alone beat. I can take them set on unbeatable except in offroad (dirt tracks aren't bad) and super short sprints. I wish they'd get the formula drift cars out of S class races for the AI to use; way too powerful. I had the drifting #118 240SX walk past my TVR Speed 12 like it was nothing, they handle too good. The only real disadvantage the AI has is braking and having an undying love for the driving line.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#4 Posted : Thursday, October 4, 2018 9:55:56 PM(UTC)
Rubber-banding implies that they slow down to let you catch up, then when you start getting ahead they speed up.

I haven't had that in this case, sure they were super fast in some instances, but their speed remained consistent.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#5 Posted : Thursday, October 4, 2018 10:18:30 PM(UTC)
If you have clearance and the AI doesn't, you'll notice how much they get slowed down by water. Mind you, if the AI has more clearance than you then they can seem like relative rockets in water.

The Cross Country events have been my favourite so far.
Welcome to the Hyperbolic Whine Chamber. If you cry hard enough you might get your pouter level over 9000.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#6 Posted : Thursday, October 4, 2018 10:30:28 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Rubber-banding implies that they slow down to let you catch up, then when you start getting ahead they speed up.

I haven't had that in this case, sure they were super fast in some instances, but their speed remained consistent.


Rubber banding certainly exists in Forza Horizon 3 and 4 but not in Motorsport 7.

You can easily test this if in doubt. Choose a 3 lap race and race normally. Note the race time achieved by the leading AI at conclusion of race.

Race the same 3 lap race again and just sit on starting grid for 45 seconds or so then race normally.. At race conclusion the leading AI will gave a considerably slower race time because they slowed down for you.

Granted it's subtle but it's definitely there.

Edited by user Thursday, October 4, 2018 10:32:27 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#7 Posted : Thursday, October 4, 2018 10:33:21 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Amused2Death 66 Go to Quoted Post

Granted it's subtle but it's definitely there.


This guy is still blowing it out of proportion, like comparing it to Crew 2's AI. I'll test it, make a video n such.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#8 Posted : Thursday, October 4, 2018 10:40:11 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Amused2Death 66 Go to Quoted Post

Granted it's subtle but it's definitely there.


This guy is still blowing it out of proportion, like comparing it to Crew 2's AI. I'll test it, make a video n such.


Agreed it's not overly significant but still there. I have read that it is "crew 2" like in street races but only subtle in road racing, cross country and dirt racing.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#9 Posted : Thursday, October 4, 2018 11:29:44 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Amused2Death 66 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Amused2Death 66 Go to Quoted Post

Granted it's subtle but it's definitely there.


This guy is still blowing it out of proportion, like comparing it to Crew 2's AI. I'll test it, make a video n such.


Agreed it's not overly significant but still there. I have read that it is "crew 2" like in street races but only subtle in road racing, cross country and dirt racing.


The AI on unbeatable during dirt/cross country races are straight up insane, I usually have to replay the races a few times over because their cars are just blatantly faster than they should be going. I get lucky sometimes and they fly off course or into a tree.

AI Control Test (normal racing)
https://youtu.be/j89RZTGE7SQ

AI Variable Test (Stay in 4th-6th place)
https://youtu.be/IzjIxLSo47A

AI Variable Test (30 Second head start.)
https://youtu.be/18lQ7mo-aFc


From these tests, I can conclude that the only "rubber-banding" there is, is when the AI slows down for you. They don't speed up magically to catch you if you're too far ahead.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#10 Posted : Thursday, October 4, 2018 11:37:36 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Amused2Death 66 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Amused2Death 66 Go to Quoted Post

Granted it's subtle but it's definitely there.


This guy is still blowing it out of proportion, like comparing it to Crew 2's AI. I'll test it, make a video n such.


Agreed it's not overly significant but still there. I have read that it is "crew 2" like in street races but only subtle in road racing, cross country and dirt racing.


The AI on unbeatable during dirt/cross country races are straight up insane, I usually have to replay the races a few times over because their cars are just blatantly faster than they should be going. I get lucky sometimes and they fly off course or into a tree.

AI Control Test (normal racing)
https://youtu.be/j89RZTGE7SQ

AI Variable Test (Stay in 4th-6th place)
https://youtu.be/IzjIxLSo47A

AI Variable Test (30 Second head start.)
https://youtu.be/18lQ7mo-aFc


From these tests, I can conclude that the only "rubber-banding" there is, is when the AI slows down for you. They don't speed up magically to catch you if you're too far ahead.


Agreed..... it's the slow down I noticed. I still don't like this because when I win I want it to be because I won..... and not because the AI slowed down for me lol.

Thankfully it is moderate.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#11 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 12:48:56 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Amused2Death 66 Go to Quoted Post
Agreed..... it's the slow down I noticed. I still don't like this because when I win I want it to be because I won..... and not because the AI slowed down for me lol.

Thankfully it is moderate.


Then just go faster lol, they're not hard to keep up with.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#12 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 2:15:41 AM(UTC)
If it's of any comfort, there have been numerous people complaining about this (including me) in one way or another since the early access launched on the 28th.

If the PI discrepancy between the drivatars' cars and your car is large enough, things can get pretty outrageous.

Also, I've seen people say this and I completely agree - this type of AI implementation basically makes your whole point of upgrading a car moot. Why would I freaking spend 300k to get certain cars to 998 or 999 PI if I know that at that point the drivatars will probably be way more powerful than my car? There used to be some satisfaction in trashing some punk drivatars.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#13 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 2:51:28 AM(UTC)
It's definitely there, in all instances, and in a game like forza where tuning and buying parts are a big part of the core gameplay it shouldn't be a thing, goes against the whole appeal of forza imo.

Take for instance yesterday, doing an S1 race against mid difficulty ai, come onto a straight, accelerating flat out past 100mph with a skyline just in front of me and boom, it literally just sling shots away from me at a stupidly fast speed.

I know what you're going to say, it could be a speed tune ai car, but if you had seen it with your own eyes, car could have been X class and not pull away that quick, Paul Walker would've been impressed

Edited by user Friday, October 5, 2018 2:53:04 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
#14 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 3:02:39 AM(UTC)
i first thought the same, after the race i checked, the same class as I, same car as I.

Also what i suspect snow doesn't affect them. I was in an Agera RS. He was. Pulled away with ease at the straight. while i struggled to gain traction.. Doesn't make any sense.

For rubberbanding, it's not as present i think as in Need for Speed, Since you still can manage to get some distance away from them and keep it. it becomes hard when you're doing relatively fine and the guy in 1 place speeds away from everyone.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#15 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 3:43:31 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: TAGS Battfink Go to Quoted Post
It's definitely there, in all instances, and in a game like forza where tuning and buying parts are a big part of the core gameplay it shouldn't be a thing, goes against the whole appeal of forza imo.

Take for instance yesterday, doing an S1 race against mid difficulty ai, come onto a straight, accelerating flat out past 100mph with a skyline just in front of me and boom, it literally just sling shots away from me at a stupidly fast speed.

I know what you're going to say, it could be a speed tune ai car, but if you had seen it with your own eyes, car could have been X class and not pull away that quick, Paul Walker would've been impressed


I completely understand what you're saying and how you felt in that moment.

And to be frank, this is down to design. It doesn't matter HOW and WHY that car shoot past you. Maybe it was bad AI, maybe it was a superfast tune. Maybe divine intervention. It doesn't matter. What DOES matter, in the end, is how that event made the player - you - feel. And it made you felt like [Mod Edit - Abbreviated profanity, profanity and profanity that is disguised but still alludes to the words are not permitted - D]. It made you think "what the [Mod Edit - Abbreviated profanity, profanity and profanity that is disguised but still alludes to the words are not permitted - D] was that. that's not right".

So in the end, design that makes you feel cheated in any way, or design that makes you feel bad about something regardless of the mechanics behind it, is bad design.

(To be more clear: I am not saying that there shouldn't ever be design that causes a bad reaction. But that should be the clear intention of that design. If I screw up, let me know I screwed up. If I took a corner at 300 km/h without breaking, sure, crash me into a wall and let everyone overtake me. I understand and accept that. But if I am driving to the best of my abilities and yet I still feel that I have absolutely no chance in hell of defeating the AI, no matter how much effort I put into my car or my driving, that is bad design.)

Edited by user Friday, October 5, 2018 5:44:25 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#16 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 3:46:56 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: TightSEAL Go to Quoted Post
i first thought the same, after the race i checked, the same class as I, same car as I.

Also what i suspect snow doesn't affect them. I was in an Agera RS. He was. Pulled away with ease at the straight. while i struggled to gain traction.. Doesn't make any sense.

For rubberbanding, it's not as present i think as in Need for Speed, Since you still can manage to get some distance away from them and keep it. it becomes hard when you're doing relatively fine and the guy in 1 place speeds away from everyone.


Yes, this.

I just wanted to say that I am grinding the Road Racing event to get to level 20 road racing (forget the name. The "final" race you unlock at road racing). In summer, I was managing a 4:40 time on that race. I was winning relatively painlessly, as long as I raced against other hyper cars and managed to get an early lead.

Now, in autumn, I am averaging 4:44 time in that race because of wet conditions. However! Drivatars are not affected. They still race as if it's dry, thus making the race harder for me. I suspect in winter it's going to be impossible to run that race, so that's why I'm trying my hardest to grind it now.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#17 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 4:49:24 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: leetleonidas Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TightSEAL Go to Quoted Post
i first thought the same, after the race i checked, the same class as I, same car as I.

Also what i suspect snow doesn't affect them. I was in an Agera RS. He was. Pulled away with ease at the straight. while i struggled to gain traction.. Doesn't make any sense.

For rubberbanding, it's not as present i think as in Need for Speed, Since you still can manage to get some distance away from them and keep it. it becomes hard when you're doing relatively fine and the guy in 1 place speeds away from everyone.


Yes, this.

I just wanted to say that I am grinding the Road Racing event to get to level 20 road racing (forget the name. The "final" race you unlock at road racing). In summer, I was managing a 4:40 time on that race. I was winning relatively painlessly, as long as I raced against other hyper cars and managed to get an early lead.

Now, in autumn, I am averaging 4:44 time in that race because of wet conditions. However! Drivatars are not affected. They still race as if it's dry, thus making the race harder for me. I suspect in winter it's going to be impossible to run that race, so that's why I'm trying my hardest to grind it now.


Agreed. since we're in the official forum, maybe some officials can shed some light on this? It's a general problem i think with AI's in games, the only way to make them better is to manipulate stats.

but there must be a better way. to switch that off. make them drive like experts. but with "normal" non manipulated stats.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#18 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 6:13:22 AM(UTC)
Sounds like you guys need to turn your difficulty down. I already debunked the rubber-banding
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#19 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 9:25:54 AM(UTC)
I'm sorry but a few tests over an hour or 2 debunks nothing. As I said, if you had seen what happened to me you would have laughed, it was pure NFS

And take it from someone who smashed the highly skilled ai and every human opponent in the new Autumn rally series last night with ease, I do not need to turn down mid difficulty ai....

If this game doesn't have some sort of rubber band ai I'll eat my own gold skirt and pink heart wellies
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#20 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 9:28:04 AM(UTC)
The rubberbanding in The Crew 2 is the most vulgar I've ever seen. :-/

Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Sounds like you guys need to turn your difficulty down. I already debunked the rubber-banding


No. No, you didn't. We've already proven rubberbanding. Nobody anywhere, not even the developers themselves, says there's no rubberbanding.
Still I Rise
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#21 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 9:44:42 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: IceMan PJN Go to Quoted Post
The rubberbanding in The Crew 2 is the most vulgar I've ever seen. :-/

Originally Posted by: SuperHornetA51 Go to Quoted Post
Sounds like you guys need to turn your difficulty down. I already debunked the rubber-banding


No. No, you didn't. We've already proven rubberbanding. Nobody anywhere, not even the developers themselves, says there's no rubberbanding.


The only "rubberbanding" is when the AI slows down to catch up with you, I've tested it. They do not speed up to catch you if you're too far ahead. And if you think I am wrong, tell me a track and class and I'll test it.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#22 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 9:58:38 AM(UTC)
I would suggest to ignore SuperHornet, he seems to just be interested in trolling. I have gone forward and blocked his posts and reported him as well.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#23 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 10:03:34 AM(UTC)
It has to be said though, this thread is sorely short of actual video evidence of rubberbanding. Surely at least some people here can use Xbox DVR?
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#24 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 10:15:25 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Zeem Frostmaw Go to Quoted Post
It has to be said though, this thread is sorely short of actual video evidence of rubberbanding. Surely at least some people here can use Xbox DVR?


I have evidence, but everyone seems to be ignoring it.
I ran 3 different races.

In the first, control race, I went as fast as I could. The AI managed 54-55s laptimes. Mine was 51s. They did not catch up.

Second race, I stayed in 4th-6th place, intentionally slowing myself down to match their speed. The AI once again managed 54-55s laptimes.

Third race, I gave them a 30 second head start, this is the only time the AI changed, and all they did was slow down by a couple of seconds. 56-57s laptimes. They think I'm "trolling" which is cute when I'm actually providing evidence. They need to tell me the exact specifications to replicate rubberbanding so I can record it myself.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#25 Posted : Friday, October 5, 2018 7:25:15 PM(UTC)
first race

second race

Both of these were identical races at the first race available upon arriving at the festival. They were identical difficulty settings in every detail, with the same car and same build. The only thing that changed was the pace of the player. The first race was deliberately slow, at 60 or so MPH the whole time. The second race was actually racing. The time difference for the AI is obvious. Rubberbanding confirmed.
Still I Rise
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