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Rank: R-Class Racing License
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#51 Posted : Saturday, February 3, 2018 5:49:19 PM(UTC)
I'm done with these ghost leagues until you make them fair for a clean racer. You punish someone for getting cleans laps and let the dirtiest racers do whatever they want. They get to start in the back every single time cause every lap they do is dirty. They cut every single corner they possibly can and it just goes on and on. Than half the lobby quits after every single race to get a worse starting position in a different lobby. I have to do it too because otherwise I will start in the top 5 every single time for any clean lap at all no matter how bad it is. Than I'm supposed to finish the same position I started in with a bunch of cutters or lose points. I've had it. You make it easy for them with constant Yas Marina parts and short bits of circuits that are the easiest to cut. STOP PUTTING THOSE TRACKS IN ALREADY!!!!! It's like an obsession. It's a joke and not competitive at all. People like me kept the ghost leagues going in 6 and we are just ignored. Not one thing was changed to make them more fair and now its worse than ever. Showing people how close they are to getting to the next division was the worst idea of all. So you have Pinnacle skill people all over the place just so they can keep winning against less skilled drivers. Literally stopping at the end of the race to they don't get moved up. You can't just let people cut and not do anything about it at all and expect this to be competitive and fair. Yea I'm angry. Ghost league used to be nice and relaxing but it's a complete stressful nightmare now. You used to get points for clean laps and now you get zip. I don't know who many times I have to say this until it gets through someone's thick skull at Turn 10 that this isn't right. You said the scoring would be adjusted and nothing has changed. It's very obvious that you just don't care to have a fair game Turn 10. There should be a warning on the box.

Edited by user Saturday, February 3, 2018 6:24:05 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#52 Posted : Monday, February 5, 2018 12:57:37 PM(UTC)
I have just done the ghost league in the 1957 Maserati 250F. I think there were 8 starters, 7 finishers. I started in place 5 or 6, and finished second ( my first ever podium).I thought at least I will get a decent points score this time! The point payout in all the categories was zero, total zero. So no progress from level 5 towards level 4. Is this correct? Do there have to be a certain number of starters to get a points score? Well at least I got 50k for the podium and the race credits.
Rank: Driver's License
#53 Posted : Wednesday, February 7, 2018 8:55:55 AM(UTC)
Pinnacle League Simulation Lobby
I was relieved to find people to race last night! Thanks to everyone that joined in! I hope to see you all, and hopefully more, again tonight (and pretty much every night).

Edited by user Wednesday, February 7, 2018 10:43:52 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's License
#54 Posted : Wednesday, February 7, 2018 10:53:51 AM(UTC)
I'm about to give up racing in leagues. I'm in pinnacle and done with racing with only 1 or 2 opponents. That's when I'm lucky. Most of the time the system can't find any race's.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
#55 Posted : Wednesday, February 7, 2018 11:15:32 AM(UTC)
With tons of people not allowing themselves to get moved up it's never going to fill up.

Edited by user Wednesday, February 7, 2018 11:26:15 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: On the Podium
#56 Posted : Wednesday, February 7, 2018 11:22:14 AM(UTC)
Nope nope nope. Not going to pinnacle though elite is starting to become a bit slow. I'm thinking about venturing to pinnacle in a few weeks. Might be fuller lobbies then??

Last night, this was "elite":

Started 18th one race and finished around 10th. I accidently left automatic on. May have been higher but for a couple wrecks.

And for the first time in a long time, I could have won multiple races by at least 1500ft. I only won 1 to get the podium finish cash bonus.

A positive is that an eagle talon keeps me about mid pack. That was pretty fun to get a top 10 in a 20 car field.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
#57 Posted : Wednesday, February 7, 2018 11:25:17 AM(UTC)
point proven, showing people exactly how close they are was a horrible idea and has just made everything worse. It shouldn't be a choice. Not fair for the rest of us for you guys to do this

Edited by user Wednesday, February 7, 2018 11:27:43 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: On the Podium
 1 user liked this post.
#58 Posted : Wednesday, February 7, 2018 11:42:14 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: leetorts Go to Quoted Post
point proven, showing people exactly how close they are was a horrible idea and has just made everything worse. It shouldn't be a choice. Not fair for the rest of us for you guys to do this


True, it's definitely manipulative but it's not anything new. A lot of us did it in the 360 era Forzas.

It's also not fair to play a game and find no one eligible to play because you're too fast.

What I do varies on the mood/lobby. If the lobby can't drive clean I'll pull out my faster cars and hotlap and do donuts and drifts on the last lap. If they can drive clean I'll pull out whatever I think can provide a decent battle. Whether or not I intentionally pull over in both cases is if the points earned is too high.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#59 Posted : Wednesday, February 7, 2018 12:24:47 PM(UTC)
If you would just let yourselves get moved up it would not be empty would it? It's also not fair to constantly do badly because you are racing Pinnacle in Professional. So its not enough that everyone is cutting every bit of every single track, now I also have to deal with the fastest people in the game where they do not belong. I give up.

Edited by user Wednesday, February 7, 2018 12:27:07 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: On the Podium
 1 user liked this post.
#60 Posted : Wednesday, February 7, 2018 1:49:09 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: leetorts Go to Quoted Post
If you would just let yourselves get moved up it would not be empty would it? It's also not fair to constantly do badly because you are racing Pinnacle in Professional. So its not enough that everyone is cutting every bit of every single track, now I also have to deal with the fastest people in the game where they do not belong. I give up.


Most pinnacle players are very very picky. If they don't like the league, they won't race in it and there's an absurd amount of don't like it going around. That's the way it was in FM6. The amount of pinnacle players who just want to race isn't a terribly large group of which most are in Europe. Once the US time frames open it's a ghost town.

I don't like it, but it's the nature of the beast. The points aspect of leagues may eventually increase pinnacle lobby count. I'm hopeful of that.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
#61 Posted : Wednesday, February 7, 2018 2:39:41 PM(UTC)
It's a flawed system that needs tweaking, I really don't blame you but its is really frustrating and it isn't fun at all. For someone like me who did consistently well in Elite in Forza 6 it is almost impossible for me to do well with this system, I can't race with my friends anymore, they give the worst classes for ghost so far, a terrible track rotation where you rarely get a full circuit. Its just short tracks where the unchecked cutting is just out of control. It's just ruined for me and that was the only place for me to go to avoid the wreckers and enjoy myself.

Edited by user Wednesday, February 7, 2018 2:46:56 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#62 Posted : Wednesday, February 7, 2018 2:58:57 PM(UTC)
Sadly, leagues was my favourite feature in FM6. I met most of the people on my friends list during league play.
Now, with the current scoring system I just do one race to get the weekly prize. Just not worth the frustration as its teaching everyone that cutting is ok.
Rank: On the Podium
#63 Posted : Thursday, February 8, 2018 4:47:28 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: leetorts Go to Quoted Post
You punish someone for getting cleans laps and let the dirtiest racers do whatever they want.

They get to start in the back every single time cause every lap they do is dirty. They cut every single corner they possibly can and it just goes on and on.

Than half the lobby quits after every single race to get a worse starting position in a different lobby.

I have to do it too because otherwise I will start in the top 5 every single time for any clean lap at all no matter how bad it is.

Than I'm supposed to finish the same position I started in with a bunch of cutters or lose points.


The "Starting Position" / "Position Change" scoring criteria has been a flaw with this Leagues structure since the beginning.

It provides the largest potential point gain/loss, to the point where it warps how people are approaching Leagues overall.

If this part of the scoring criteria were based purely on Starting Grid Position and ignored finishing position entirely I believe things would improve as people would actually have a reason to start in higher grid slots.


Originally Posted by: a67ssrs Go to Quoted Post
Pinnacle League Simulation Lobby
I was relieved to find people to race last night! Thanks to everyone that joined in! I hope to see you all, and hopefully more, again tonight (and pretty much every night).


On Sunday there were between 10 and 20 people in the Sim Event for a few hours, peaking at around 19 for one race. I managed to Rank up to Pinnacle 1 because of the larger lobbies:



Sadly it's not always that busy.


Originally Posted by: leetorts Go to Quoted Post
If you would just let yourselves get moved up it would not be empty would it? It's also not fair to constantly do badly because you are racing Pinnacle in Professional. So its not enough that everyone is cutting every bit of every single track, now I also have to deal with the fastest people in the game where they do not belong. I give up.

It's becoming a self-fulfiling prophecy at this point:
  • Very few people are racing in Pinnacle.
  • The drivers that are capable of racing in Pinnacle want to race in lobbies with lots of people.
  • Since there aren't many people in Pinnacle people decide to stay in Elite instead.


I think it was a bad judgment call to have all players "start from the bottom". In Forza Motorsport 6 the initial league placement for a first-time competitor was based on their TrueSkill ranking. That meant that many of the stronger players started in Pinnacle right away, thus guaranteeing enough of a population for lobbies to remain active at all times.


Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post

Most pinnacle players are very very picky. If they don't like the league, they won't race in it and there's an absurd amount of don't like it going around.

This is certainly the case with some players.

For me I am only interested in the following:
  • Non-Ghost racing
  • Divisions with cars I like racing.
  • Races with a minimum of 9 opponents.


If a League Event doesn't contain all of those I won't race in Leagues that night, and will just stick to the Hoppers instead.


Originally Posted by: leetorts Go to Quoted Post
I give up.

Maybe Leagues isn't for you then, considering its flaws and the encouraged playing style is such a frustrating experience for you. I know you like a fun, competitive and fair playing environment, and if Leagues isn't providing that you'll have to figure something else out.

Sadly the Hoppers aren't much better (for different reasons) so your only real option at this point is to look into private clubs and lobbies. If the timezone suits you, I run a private session every Monday night and we generally get clean racing for a few hours.

Edited by user Thursday, February 8, 2018 4:48:56 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Formatting

Rank: On the Podium
 2 users liked this post.
#64 Posted : Thursday, February 8, 2018 2:31:01 PM(UTC)
I’ve done a few more races this evening and it appears that the point scoring system has changed.

  • Finishing Position gives many more points now for higher finishing positions than it did previously. After winning a 10 man race I gained 103 points from this metric alone.
  • Position Change gives and drops far fewer points than it did previously. You now gain/lose 3 points instead of 15 per position made/lost compared to your grid slot.
  • Opponent Skill remains unchanged.


In other news I’ve hit the Rank limit: Pinnacle Rank 1 with 10,000/10,000 LP:

Rank: R-Class Racing License
 3 users liked this post.
#65 Posted : Friday, February 9, 2018 3:39:55 AM(UTC)
Has anyone else just won their 1st league race? I won 2 times in the ghost league and 3 times in spec sim today,it felt great,been doing league for awhile and its paid off. How did you guys feel getting that 1st win?
Rank: Racing Permit
#66 Posted : Friday, February 9, 2018 3:59:24 AM(UTC)
Winning a weeks worth of league racing was a much more satisfying experince than 1 league race. It's shame the leaderboards have been removed from the leagues.

I'd love to do more league racing but I have lost all confidence in its intergirity as a fair platform to race competitively.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
#67 Posted : Friday, February 9, 2018 4:06:47 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Bring Back FM4 Go to Quoted Post
Winning a weeks worth of league racing was a much more satisfying experince than 1 league race. It's shame the leaderboards have been removed from the leagues.

I'd love to do more league racing but I have lost all confidence in its intergirity as a fair platform to race competitively.
The way they do points is weird,i'm at 3 now,starting at 5 but it was an up and down ride,i'm not a fan of the point system they use.

Rank: On the Podium
#68 Posted : Friday, February 9, 2018 6:32:17 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Bring Back FM4 Go to Quoted Post
Winning a weeks worth of league racing was a much more satisfying experince than 1 league race. It's shame the leaderboards have been removed from the leagues.

I'd love to do more league racing but I have lost all confidence in its intergirity as a fair platform to race competitively.


That was all participation based. Ive seen many near the top of league leaderboards who weren't all that great. All you needed was 20 car lobbies and finish at least top 10 to accrue massive points. Depending on where you lived and what time you played, you were lucky to get more than 10 in a race. I distinctly remember torching guys ranked top 5 in pinnacle like it was nothing. It was a joke.

That system doesn't work with a league that does promotions and demotions throughout the week. The winner would likely be a fast guy in a lower band that accrued a ton of points and hits pinnacle by weeks end.

Neither FM6 or FM7 leagues are competitive based. Both only accomplished the goal (mostly) of separating skill levels so that each skill level (theoretically) will have close racing.

Only esports and rivals were competitive based in FM6. FM7 so far has nothing.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
 3 users liked this post.
#69 Posted : Friday, February 9, 2018 7:45:29 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: T REX 5753 Go to Quoted Post
Has anyone else just won their 1st league race? I won 2 times in the ghost league and 3 times in spec sim today,it felt great,been doing league for awhile and its paid off. How did you guys feel getting that 1st win?


not won a race yet but its not the wining its the taking part that counts in my opinion i am just average driver so i will prob never win a race in the leagues kudos to you for wining some races mate your a better driver than me then

Rank: A-Class Racing License
 4 users liked this post.
#70 Posted : Friday, February 9, 2018 8:13:24 AM(UTC)
I got second once in grassroots and there were 5 drivers total and one dropped out. But still a podium finish.
Rank: Driver's Permit
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#71 Posted : Friday, February 9, 2018 8:35:18 AM(UTC)
Congrats on win ! Hard to be equally competitive when using a controller versus guys with "racing rigs" . I've gotten a few wins but only when three people where racing or when all but three drop out . I mostly race for the reward though.
Rank: Racing Permit
#72 Posted : Friday, February 9, 2018 8:39:23 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Bring Back FM4 Go to Quoted Post
Winning a weeks worth of league racing was a much more satisfying experince than 1 league race. It's shame the leaderboards have been removed from the leagues.

I'd love to do more league racing but I have lost all confidence in its intergirity as a fair platform to race competitively.


That was all participation based. Ive seen many near the top of league leaderboards who weren't all that great. All you needed was 20 car lobbies and finish at least top 10 to accrue massive points. Depending on where you lived and what time you played, you were lucky to get more than 10 in a race. I distinctly remember torching guys ranked top 5 in pinnacle like it was nothing. It was a joke.

That system doesn't work with a league that does promotions and demotions throughout the week. The winner would likely be a fast guy in a lower band that accrued a ton of points and hits pinnacle by weeks end.

Neither FM6 or FM7 leagues are competitive based. Both only accomplished the goal (mostly) of separating skill levels so that each skill level (theoretically) will have close racing.

Only esports and rivals were competitive based in FM6. FM7 so far has nothing.


I agree both systems are rubbish. I suppose my point is that I got more satisfaction seeing the lb and being at the top than winning a race on fm7. All I know is I hammerd fm6 leagues abd had some really competitive races. I got myself into pinnicle on fm7 and havnt bothered with it since. I'm now in elite and unless I do a race I will be in proffessional on Monday. Im a bit annoyed as it was by far my favourite feature on fm6 and now it's my second worst to the auction house
Rank: On the Podium
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#73 Posted : Friday, February 9, 2018 8:43:44 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: T REX 5753 Go to Quoted Post
I won 2 times in the ghost league and 3 times in spec sim today,it felt great,been doing league for awhile and its paid off.




Now that you know how to win, you can keep trying to do so in future races.

Onwards and upwards ;)
Rank: Racing Permit
#74 Posted : Friday, February 9, 2018 9:07:06 AM(UTC)
I never managed to go for a win, kept getting wrecked by idiots so in the end i was just driving round looking for my revenge.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#75 Posted : Friday, February 9, 2018 9:18:08 AM(UTC)
Congrats on the win! It’s always nice to get used to being out front so you don’t have to sweat as much when you find yourself there...
I remember the first few times I was leading a race I was pretty thankful that the tracks had boundaries I couldn’t get through! (So nervous, driving off track for basically no reason) Confidence does wonders for maintaining your cool.
On a side note, I seem to haven “stolen” somebody’s win last night. In the ghost league race (with those super old cars). The race started with only 4 of us in the room, but for me, when we got to the race track the race started instantly! No countdown, just go! I’m not sure what the other drivers saw, but that’s how it started for me... anyways, started in third, remained in third for the entire race. Then I placed first! I finished third, I followed the other drivers to the finish line (maybe 100 feet behind 1st and 2nd) but I was listed as first place in the results board and on the podium.
Maybe because of the “instant start”?
We did all start driving at the same time, but maybe the countdown went on their total time but not mine?
Little weird, sorry if I robbed somebody of their first win!
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