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#726 Posted : Tuesday, September 19, 2017 9:27:33 PM(UTC)
Disappointment is fine. But someone appears to be here trying to help. Encourage them to help rather than tearing them down.
I blame the ants.
Rank: Forza Staff
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#727 Posted : Tuesday, September 19, 2017 9:33:05 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Blue028 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: T10Driver Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Blue028 Go to Quoted Post
Colour me extremely disappointed, video will be available here shortly : Forza 7 PC Demo Wheel Impressions


Tell me a bit about your setup. Base, hub, pedals, etc. I'd like to replicate it here. What driver and firmware are you on? What are your driver settings? What about your wheel tuning settings?

I noted that you turned your center spring and damper down completely. The center spring is the static centering force from scrub radius. Drag is the inherent frictions within the steering system. Both of these values will contribute to the oscillation and lack of feel when the car isn't moving. The default settings of 100 may be too high but I wouldn't suggest setting them to 0.

I'm really curious about the lack of align torque. With the proper settings align torque from both pneumatic and mechanical trail are significant. Of course, going beyond the limits of the front tires will diminish both of these but certainly not to zero.


Hi Aaron, HUGE thank you for taking the time to comunicate with us here, we have been begging for it for years.

My setup is a custom built CSR elite with powerful FFB motor capable of ~9nm of torque, custom built wheel rims/and modded rims w/ quick release. On the wheel tuning I have FF: 70 ABS:75 DRI:0 DPR:0 (range of -3 to +3) SPR:0 (range of -3 to +3) DEA:0 LIN:0.

I turn the damper off ingame as I have the damper on the wheel.

I turned the spring off because I hated the fake feeling it gave on Horizon 3, is the spring setting now related to center strenght of the aligning torque?

I will get more info and do some further testing when I get home

Again THANK YOU for comunication with us, it has lifted my spirits for the game emensly


Nice setup! Looking at your settings and working with our Elite here I think I've found a few things.

  • There shouldn't be any issue using your own damper rather than the game damper. They both accomplish roughly the same thing through slightly different means. Everyone's preference is different. Real cars have a damper through drag so I tend to run a bit in my setup.

  • The centering spring force from the game is far lower than what was used in Forza Horizon 3. It's also dependent on a several physics values. Essentially, the spring is the force pulling the steering wheel toward center; that is to say gravity through caster, KPI and scrub radius. This force is overcome at speed through pneumatic and mechanical trail, the causes of align torque. It's an active force in Forza Motorsport 7 and at racing speed it's very minimal. You may try turning the wheel spring off and feeding in some game spring.

  • The center strength of align torque falls into the Force Feedback slider. This is where align torque lives and where the Force Feedback Minimum and Understeer values are intended to help. Our align torque has always come from our extensive tire tests and was defined as the pneumatic trail of the tire. One of the largest changes this time is the addition of mechanical trail. Mechanical trail doesn't diminish as much as pneumatic trail at break-away. This is the missing magic force that makes the wheel follow through in oversteer and we touched on it slightly in FH3 but it was overrun by the spring. It's a double edged sword; more mechanical trail means more subtle feeling at the edge of understeer since there is now another force beyond peak slip angle. Basically, we're trading understeer feel for oversteer feel. Force Feedback Understeer is intended to allow you to find your balance between understeer and oversteer. At the moment, it isn't working as intended.


This brings me to my final point. In working with the Elite I discovered an issue with custom mappings which in some cases is turning off force feedback. The forces you're experiencing may be coming entirely from your wheel and not at all from the game. We're looking into this now.
Aaron
T10 Design
Rank: Series Champion
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#728 Posted : Tuesday, September 19, 2017 9:40:44 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: T10Driver Go to Quoted Post




  • The center strength of align torque falls into the Force Feedback slider. This is where align torque lives and where the Force Feedback Minimum and Understeer values are intended to help. Our align torque has always come from our extensive tire tests and was defined as the pneumatic trail of the tire. One of the largest changes this time is the addition of mechanical trail. Mechanical trail doesn't diminish as much as pneumatic trail at break-away. This is the missing magic force that makes the wheel follow through in oversteer and we touched on it slightly in FH3 but it was overrun by the spring. It's a double edged sword; more mechanical trail means more subtle feeling at the edge of understeer since there is now another force beyond peak slip angle. Basically, we're trading understeer feel for oversteer feel. Force Feedback Understeer is intended to allow you to find your balance between understeer and oversteer. At the moment, it isn't working as intended.


This brings me to my final point. In working with the Elite I discovered an issue with custom mappings which in some cases is turning off force feedback. The forces you're experiencing may be coming entirely from your wheel and not at all from the game. We're looking into this now.


This explains what I just worked out.

T500RS - PC (no on wheel config)
my Settings:
All deadzones 0 - 100, clutch 0-0.
Vibration: 100
FFB Scale: 90
Steering Sens: 100
Steering Lin: 50
FFB Understeer: 0
FFB Min force: 80
Wheel Damper:0
Center spring:0

My Thrustmaster control panel is basically defaults apart from master scale at 50%.

The game behaves as I would expect after turning all those things off.
Introducing center spring introduces this annoying shuddering of the wheel.

Edited by user Tuesday, September 19, 2017 9:42:05 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#729 Posted : Tuesday, September 19, 2017 9:49:18 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DUST2DEATH Go to Quoted Post
This explains what I just worked out.
<snip>
.


Thanks. I'll have a look at your settings in the morning. It's 10:45PM here and I'm still in the office.
Aaron
T10 Design
Rank: Driver's Permit
#730 Posted : Tuesday, September 19, 2017 10:13:52 PM(UTC)
Just to add to the input here...

I don't have anything fancy for a wheel setup, but I've definitely had my share of grievances with this demo on my G27. It is up to date and working as it should, but man does something feel majorly off about that GT2 RS. Honestly, the GT-R & truck felt pretty solid, albeit very different experiences than the GT2 race. The GT2 on the other hand... I just can't seem to pinpoint. At times it does feel like there's a lot of understeer, but the main issue I'm having is how easy the car starts to oversteer INTO a turn. Power oversteer OUT of the turns isn't a problem at all, yet 80% of the time when I enter a turn it feels as if I've unloaded the backend completely and immediately goes into a slide on turn in. I understand the dynamics and I'm not just lifting off the throttle and chucking into a turn or anything silly, it just makes no sense. I'd also note that when it gets into that slide, I've yet to be able to correct it either. It just slides and slides... and slides EVERY time. With something like Race Room Experience, I can correct pretty much anything (that's actually correctable) and that's due to how well the game communicates what the car is doing. I can't tell anything with this.

Also something important I've noticed... you guys can select the amount of steering angle in the game right? I noticed the option in the advanced setting in a video and realized that in my demo, I DO NOT have the wheel rotation angle slider at all... what's that about??

Edited by user Tuesday, September 19, 2017 10:15:30 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
#731 Posted : Tuesday, September 19, 2017 10:34:02 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DUST2DEATH Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fyre577 Go to Quoted Post
we "do" need Turn 10 to look at Project Cars/Project Cars 2 and how they handle wheel calibration and how simple it is to do (to the point where even someone with very little experience in PC gaming in general can do it), and implement this into the full release.


Technical thing.

Pcars etc are designed wheel first. Terrible on a controller. I know, I spent ages during WMD1 on controller settings.
Forza is controller first. T10 will never deviate from this.

So yes, other games are irrelevent to forza and *its* ffb.

Soft locking is coming as per Aaron's post earlier. I would *expect*, *hope* there would be improvements at that point much like Dirt Rally initially had when soft locking was introduced.


Well yeah, though I meant mainly the way you calibrated your wheel and not so much as how the wheel itself performs. Obviously a game designed around a wheel (or in a different genre, a joystick) will be superior to that of a game designed around a controller (in this case an Xbox One controller). I didn't mean to make it sound like I am bashing Forza's handling as a whole as that is one of the very core things I would "never" bash as one need only look towards Gran Turismo 6/Sport and how terrible its handling/physics are (to the point where the cars feel magnetically attracted to the walls and are spin-out happy for relatively no reason at all) to see why I would not bash Forza as in its niche (aka sim-cade) it is quite possibly the best.

As for its ffb, yeah compared to games centered around a wheel, of course its going to not compare. I wasn't expecting it to be "that" close to Project Cars and instead was expecting something similar to, say, Gran Turismo 5 and fellow PC sim-cade racer GRID. What I got instead was non-existent ffb which meant that driving on the grass felt the same as driving on asphalt, which we all know should at "least" feel even a tiny bit different. Heck, I couldn't even feel the wheel struggling when I was starting to spin out of control which, again, is something that GT5 and other sim-cade (aka not Project Cars) had.

I guess what I was meaning to say was something along these lines: T10 needs to implement a simple calibration tool in the main settings when it comes to setting up your wheel. T10 does "not" need to compete with Project Cars/2 when it comes to how the wheel itself performs but it "does" need to have that menu option in there to easily calibrate your wheel (where it just tells you to rotate it to 90 degrees and then 180 degrees) so that we don't have to go hunting through an extensive setup screen just to get the wheel to actually perform well.

All I really wanted was the game to work right with my G27 and not force me to go through hours of going into the race, then exiting the race to adjust the setting(s) and repeating over and over only to find out that nothing works.

So yeah, sorry if the actual intention of my post didn't really go through well.
Rank: Series Champion
#732 Posted : Tuesday, September 19, 2017 10:41:52 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: fyre577 Go to Quoted Post
T10 needs to implement a simple calibration tool in the main settings when it comes to setting up your wheel


Absolutely, 100% agree.

That said, can you turn off all the settings I mentioned and see what happens?. Night and Day for me IMO.

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Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#733 Posted : Tuesday, September 19, 2017 10:57:08 PM(UTC)
I'm really encouraged that the T10 Devs have been contributing to this thread and putting in a late shift... Much appreciated.

I am fairly confident that when I get back onto the demo later today that I can at least get my G920 setup to a place where I can live with it while the "team" look to see what needs sorting... I am going to be concentrating on getting it working with the Console first and hopefully the "feel" will be the same on the PC....


It's not a Question of whether the Glass is 1/2 Full or 1/2 Empty - A man dying of thirst would be happy to get his hands on either...

Rank: R-Class Racing License
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#734 Posted : Tuesday, September 19, 2017 10:57:13 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: T10Driver Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: DUST2DEATH Go to Quoted Post
This explains what I just worked out.
<snip>
.


Thanks. I'll have a look at your settings in the morning. It's 10:45PM here and I'm still in the office.
Dude,thank you so much,you cannot imagine what you are doing for the moral of some here!!!

Rank: Driver's Permit
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#735 Posted : Tuesday, September 19, 2017 11:14:59 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DUST2DEATH Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fyre577 Go to Quoted Post
we "do" need Turn 10 to look at Project Cars/Project Cars 2 and how they handle wheel calibration and how simple it is to do (to the point where even someone with very little experience in PC gaming in general can do it), and implement this into the full release.


Technical thing.

Pcars etc are designed wheel first. Terrible on a controller. I know, I spent ages during WMD1 on controller settings.
Forza is controller first. T10 will never deviate from this.

So yes, other games are irrelevent to forza and *its* ffb.

Soft locking is coming as per Aaron's post earlier. I would *expect*, *hope* there would be improvements at that point much like Dirt Rally initially had when soft locking was introduced.
Let's not forget that Dirt Rally started out with awful FFB but a member of the community offered to fix it for them and Codemasters graciously flew him out to their office and had him help them fix it without any arrogance thinking they knew better than everyone else.

Sometimes you just have to put your hands up and admit that you can't get it to the same level as every other racing game and get someone who knows exactly how to translate in-game physics to good FFB.

When established sim racers jump into your game and struggle to keep the car on the road and are spinning out then it should be pretty obvious it's broken because jumping between sim games with good FFB is actually very easy and the best drivers get up to speed extremely quickly but in this you always see people fighting the wheel to stay in control.

Now I'll add the caveat I haven't had a chance to play the demo yet so I'm going off of what other people have said + videos but based on those clearly its wrong. It's all well and good matching up the physics effects to how they would operate in real life but if it results in terrible FFB then it's all for nothing.
Rank: Series Champion
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#736 Posted : Tuesday, September 19, 2017 11:25:57 PM(UTC)
I love how I, one of many very critical people on this forum is being painted as the above posts.

Amazing. One minute Im a hater, now Im a defender. Which is it?

Aaron isnt entirely wrong. Self Aligning torque is in, FFB is decent, but its masked by a bunch of broken. Turn them off.
Talking to brick walls since 2007.
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#737 Posted : Tuesday, September 19, 2017 11:42:58 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DUST2DEATH Go to Quoted Post
I love how I, one of many very critical people on this forum is being painted as the above posts.

Amazing. One minute Im a hater, now Im a defender. Which is it?

Aaron isnt entirely wrong. Self Aligning torque is in, FFB is decent, but its masked by a bunch of broken. Turn them off.


Good to hear you have it feeling nice.
Rank: Series Champion
#738 Posted : Tuesday, September 19, 2017 11:46:39 PM(UTC)
Spoke to soon. Definite Input detection problems with the demo.

Turned the demo off, had a break, came back, booted game, no ffb at all.

I hadnt turned my wheel off at all... Gonna reboot wheel and see what happens.

EDIT: rebooting the wheel sorted it. FFB is back.

Edited by user Tuesday, September 19, 2017 11:56:39 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#739 Posted : Tuesday, September 19, 2017 11:58:17 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DUST2DEATH Go to Quoted Post
I love how I, one of many very critical people on this forum is being painted as the above posts.

Amazing. One minute Im a hater, now Im a defender. Which is it?

Aaron isnt entirely wrong. Self Aligning torque is in, FFB is decent, but its masked by a bunch of broken. Turn them off.
So much conflicting info, I really need to try this for myself but can't for a while. In Apex I played with the settings for hours and with enough adjustment you could get some feeling when breaking traction rather than a complete loss of FFB but ultimately it still felt broken when driving anywhere close to the limit. I used the McLaren GT3 across AC, PCars, RRRE, then Dirt Rally, F1 2016 and even redownloaded Grid: Autosport to check an arcade game because I was so confused by Apex and couldn't work out if maybe it was just me sucking but ultimately all of those games felt similar and Apex was the broken outlier.

The slider for inverting FFB literally did nothing which still baffles me as it should make it very obvious if you have it on the wrong setting.

Anyway I'll just wait and see for myself now.

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#740 Posted : Wednesday, September 20, 2017 12:01:58 AM(UTC)
Great to see a dev interacting on here.

I know wheel settings are somewhat subjective to personal taste, but is it possible we could have a pinned post or something, detailing the best base settings to use for the most popular wheels?

Some of us just don't have time to be sifting through hundreds of posts to try and find a starting point.

If not, I'm using a G920 on Xbox, what settings should I alter?

For me the Porsche was a mess, the truck felt good, as did the Nissan albeit not quite right somehow

Many thanks
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#741 Posted : Wednesday, September 20, 2017 12:04:19 AM(UTC)
Setting Understeer, wheel damper and center spring to their respective minimum values helped indeed. Seems like those are completely broken, as disabling them improved the FBB.

Still, on straight lines the car feels dead. I see the ingame wheel shaking, yet I don't feel anything (even if I max out minimum force, which seems to be broken aswell).
Rank: Series Champion
#742 Posted : Wednesday, September 20, 2017 12:10:28 AM(UTC)
I never said it was perfect ;)
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#743 Posted : Wednesday, September 20, 2017 12:14:34 AM(UTC)
Im installing the FM7 demo on my xbox now, will hook the G920 up later. For now I am going to try what you have found out on the PC with my T300 Dust, since I only need to slide my wheel stand into place. Seems like those options in the demo make things much better from what you have been saying.
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#744 Posted : Wednesday, September 20, 2017 12:16:22 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FISH AAC Go to Quoted Post
Great to see a dev interacting on here.

I know wheel settings are somewhat subjective to personal taste, but is it possible we could have a pinned post or something, detailing the best base settings to use for the most popular wheels?

Some of us just don't have time to be sifting through hundreds of posts to try and find a starting point.

If not, I'm using a G920 on Xbox, what settings should I alter?

For me the Porsche was a mess, the truck felt good, as did the Nissan albeit not quite right somehow

Many thanks
There is a thread to post wheel settings here already.

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#745 Posted : Wednesday, September 20, 2017 12:16:37 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: DUST2DEATH Go to Quoted Post
I never said it was perfect ;)


Don't worry, I wasn't criticising your tip, I'm criticising the demo. I certainly hope they'll fix this issue in time for the release.

Edited by user Wednesday, September 20, 2017 12:17:32 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#746 Posted : Wednesday, September 20, 2017 12:22:00 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: T10Driver Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CodenameJack447 Go to Quoted Post
g920 PC user here, FW 96.3.49, LGS_8.96.81_x64:

-Basicaly, i feel like FFB here is a FH3's FFB copy, no bumps road feeling, only when i crash with cars or take some corners or im out of road i have some FFB, but weak for being a sim game...

-FM6 APEX makes me feel better FFB than this.

-In fact, i'm having better feelings with Apex in all senses than with this demo, with the exception of not having the zoomed cabin camera...


Try lowering the damper value in game. The G920 native damper is very strong and uses up quite a bit of the motor force, diminishing all other values.



I tried to lower the damper and it doesn't help, as contrary: it creates a dead zone near center in where i don't feel any resistance.

Is simple: there's no road effects feedback, only out of the road, car collisions and curbes 3D corners, but is weak like FH3. And the FFB effects intensity are very weak, no matter if i slide it to max, is like Forza Horizon 3.

FM6 Apex has awesome FFB for this wheel compared with this game and FH3, is like having 4x times more FFB scale compared to FM7. You should take a look into it.

At the moment my 100€ that went to go for this game are going to PCars 2 and Destiny 2.

Edited by user Wednesday, September 20, 2017 12:25:19 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#747 Posted : Wednesday, September 20, 2017 12:26:53 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: CodenameJack447 Go to Quoted Post

I tried to lower the damper and it doesn't help, as contrary: it creates a dead zone near center in where i don't feel any resistance.

Is simple: there's no road effects feedback, only out of the road, car collisions and curbes 3D corners, but is weak like FH3. And the FFB effects intensity are very weak, no matter if i slide it to max, is like Forza Horizon 3.

FM6 Apex has awesome FFB for this wheel compared with this game and FH3, is like having 4x times more FFB scale compared to FM7. You should take a look into it.

At the moment my 100€ that went to go for this game definitely is going to PCars 2 and Destiny 2.


Just a avid forza gamer like you, I would suggest resetting the ingame FFB settings back to default, and then lower the damper to 0% and with the findings that Dust has brought up, also lowering the center spring to 0%. then go from there making minor adjusts as you feel the need.

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#748 Posted : Wednesday, September 20, 2017 12:38:28 AM(UTC)
I have a Fanatec Turbo S wheel. Still runs great with thousands of hours. Used it in FM3 and FM4. Run all different sim games on PC with it too. Latest drivers installed and running v681 firmware. I almost gave up on the demo within the first half hour, but I decided to try it out again after seeing this thread. I have discovered a few things that may help here.

First, I turned vibrations off. I'm not sure if this does anything to the FFB motor or if its just the vibration motors in the wheel, but it definitely helped me feel out the car a bit better. This does make the rumble from the rumblestrips and cobblestone disappear.

Linearity is important like all other racing games/sims. I'm currently running 37 in-game and 900 degrees with 0 linearity on the wheel. A good balance will help with accurate steering input needed to keep the GT2 RS under control in the corners, especially during trail braking. Go to low and you have too much sensitivity near lock and likely over-correct during oversteer. Too much and the car will be twitchy and you may find it hard to keep it on the race line.

The Understeer setting seems almost useless to me. Whether I had it at 5 or 200 there was no noticeable difference.

I'm getting some spiking issues mainly on the straights. Lowering the Minimum Force setting all the way to 80 has helped slightly reduce the intensity of it.

The main issue I'm having I believe has to do with the Centering Spring Force setting. It's strange because it only happens when I set it to 8 or higher. 7 and lower it doesn't seem to happen, but the FFB is so weak at 7 and lower. 8 seems to make the FFB strong but then the issue occurs. 0 obviously gets rid of it and the cars are almost undriveable. When it's 8 or higher, I'll be driving and everything is fine, you can feel the aligning torque well during oversteer and such, but suddenly it will just start pulling the wheel to center at random times, also making the FFB stronger when it happens. Then it will magically snap out of it and work normal again. I tried making it work at 0-7 but the feedback is so weak it's difficult to feel anything. Not sure what the deal is but I feel it can't be corrected with the settings in the demo.

Even though these issues exist. I'm not having a ton of trouble like I was the first time on it. I can run clean laps fairly consistent but when that GT2 RS kicks out there is a 50% chance it's sliding to a wall. I think a lot of people are forgetting that they are driving a 700HP rear engine car on a hot, dusty road. I'm not sure I'll be buying unless I know for sure these issues are fixed. Only reason I've considered buying this one is because it's on PC and I refuse to buy another console. Forza 2-4 are still the best.

If it helps, I might be able to make a quick video later on today demonstrating the problems I'm having.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#749 Posted : Wednesday, September 20, 2017 1:00:27 AM(UTC)
The TX458 wheel has a 2017 driver update, I wasn't aware of this so thought I'd share it here. Search for Thrustmaster Technical Support and the wheel. I've just installed it and will report back if it makes a significant difference on either PC and/or Xbox.

Edited by user Wednesday, September 20, 2017 1:00:57 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#750 Posted : Wednesday, September 20, 2017 1:03:55 AM(UTC)

[/quote] There is a thread to post wheel settings here already.

[/quote]
Thanks. But I meant some base settings from the devs themselves, rather than the hit and miss process of sifting through posts of people's opinions and experiences upto now.

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