Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#1 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2016 9:09:11 AM(UTC)
Hello all,

I, and many others, have a few opinions regarding the FRC. The Monza choice for the first FRC event is an awful choice. The track was not fixed and it is still so easily cuttable. The first chicane, second chicane and section leading onto the back straight are all cuttable. This should have been addressed way back why the Gallardo rivals was an event. You should only be able to dirty your lap if you go all four wheels beyond the white lines. This really doesn't set a good president for those watching from the outside in. It's very broken and needs to be addressed.

Adding more tyre walls doesn't help the situation as at Silverstone International on the entry to the back straight with the new tyre wall in place people who go wide can easily bounce back into the line of traffic and wreck the lobby or can easily be trolled and put into that tyre wall.

This needs to be addressed because it's awful. In my opinion if you are going to have an event of this calibre competing for a prize such as the one available this is a poor mechanic and in no way represents simulation racing at all as this doesn't happen in F1 or Blancpain or other races at this track. And for that matter all race tracks only allow for a clean qualifying lap to be either within the white lines or to the edge of the kerbs.

Again this in an opinion I strongly try to voice and would like to see action taken place on to make sure that this looks representable and isn't a rant. Remember how awful and poor it looked when Raceboy and Lightning* were doing 360 entries into corners showboating and misrepresenting the racing community making us appear as fools and not to be taken seriously, this, to me, is how it feels looking at the cheat lines and how cuttable the tracks are.

*Disclaimer: I have nothing against RB or Lightning they are cool guys and I agree with RBs stance on the Monza choice, I was using their actions as an example to show how foolish the MLG event looks like and how it correlates to the Monza choice and how and outside viewer would view the cutting at Monza*

Edited by user Monday, August 8, 2016 9:22:24 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#2 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2016 9:24:30 AM(UTC)
I feel the same as you.

But to police the corner cutting ESL or Turn10 will have to watch all the replays of the qualifiers and if they have cut then dsq them and move on to another. Could be a while.

Sadly I feel like they'll just go with "if the game says it's clean, then it's clean".

I really wish they did police it or at least tell us if they will or won't. I've set a time already without any of the corner cuts but could probably get another 2 seconds if I added them in.
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#3 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2016 9:26:42 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Springbock Go to Quoted Post
I feel the same as you.

But to police the corner cutting ESL or Turn10 will have to watch all the replays of the qualifiers and if they have cut then dsq them and move on to another. Could be a while.

Sadly I feel like they'll just go with "if the game says it's clean, then it's clean".

I really wish they did police it or at least tell us if they will or won't. I've set a time already without any of the corner cuts but could probably get another 2 seconds if I added them in.


I think they have stated they will just being going with the "If forza says it's clean, it's clean"
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#4 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2016 10:10:48 AM(UTC)
They cut the track on its own. There are some Turn10 Trademark players at the top. I ve watched their replays and they re all cutting the track in an insane way. I am not the worst driver and was really asking myself how they can be 5 seconds faster. Its a big shame. nevertheless its a competition and you want to win a prize. So, you have to do the same or dont participate in the Elite Rivals.
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#5 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2016 10:19:55 AM(UTC)
You can't blame the individual this is t10's fault
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#6 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2016 10:38:28 AM(UTC)
In the ESL Forza rules, I also hope everyone sticks with this including the race marshals setting the ultimate example.

If the rules aren't enforced then the leaderboard should be reset and then monitored



I should add, to stay in the competition you need to do this so fair play, but the board should be reset completely and as I said previously then enforced as well as making it even more known this is the incorrect thing to do.

Edited by user Monday, August 8, 2016 11:00:24 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#7 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2016 12:19:33 PM(UTC)
The way I see it this is a qualify event "governed" by Forza rules and/or what they allow and does not constitute a "match" as defined. The series race or match referred to above refers to an ESL race which will be governed by ESL.

Better than always being right is knowing when to shut up
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#8 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2016 2:43:19 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FA RACING 01 Go to Quoted Post
The way I see it this is a qualify event "governed" by Forza rules and/or what they allow and does not constitute a "match" as defined. The series race or match referred to above refers to an ESL race which will be governed by ESL.


So you're saying it's ok to cheat to get to the finals, but don't cheat when you get there?

I agree with the op. This is cheating and corner cutting no matter what Forza thinks. We're all supposed to abide by race etiquette, and this breaks that.
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#9 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2016 3:03:51 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ERTStigsCousin Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FA RACING 01 Go to Quoted Post
The way I see it this is a qualify event "governed" by Forza rules and/or what they allow and does not constitute a "match" as defined. The series race or match referred to above refers to an ESL race which will be governed by ESL.


So you're saying it's ok to cheat to get to the finals, but don't cheat when you get there?

I agree with the op. This is cheating and corner cutting no matter what Forza thinks. We're all supposed to abide by race etiquette, and this breaks that.


Not according to the game. The game says the line is clean, so it's not a cut by the game's standards. No one has to play by someone else's rules just because they think it's unfair.
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#10 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2016 3:10:51 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ERTStigsCousin Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FA RACING 01 Go to Quoted Post
The way I see it this is a qualify event "governed" by Forza rules and/or what they allow and does not constitute a "match" as defined. The series race or match referred to above refers to an ESL race which will be governed by ESL.


So you're saying it's ok to cheat to get to the finals, but don't cheat when you get there?

I agree with the op. This is cheating and corner cutting no matter what Forza thinks. We're all supposed to abide by race etiquette, and this breaks that.


You should learn to read or at least to interpret content. My statement clearly refers to the relevance (or not) of ERS rules in this Rival. What I think or not is irrelevant. It's what the host/rules allow or not. AND as for agreeing with the OP, yes I do agree full heartedly, but then again the leaders (and myself) just follow the exact racing line as he [the OP] does. Do I call him a cheat, certainly not. He just do what the game directs.

Edited by user Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:01:50 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified


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#11 Posted : Monday, August 8, 2016 11:32:23 PM(UTC)
It is the same discussion of the trophy Lamborghini
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#12 Posted : Tuesday, August 9, 2016 3:16:58 AM(UTC)
I still stand by my opinion that the racing track should be defined as being the areas within the white lines + kerbs and I think it's stupid we can drive over bumps put in place that are designed to stop cheating.

That being said, and this is me playing devils advocate slightly, like Harmonic stated in another thread it is up to the governing body to determine what is considered the race track and at COTA IMSA did declare that running past the kerbs was fine, although that was COTA and COTA is awful anyways, and in this instance it is Turn 10s decision to make astroturf clean, although in a race car hitting the yellow and black sleeping policemen with your under tray will dirty your lap.

The only other argument I feel is valid for this case it's it's a cheat everyone can do clean. We can all race the same line, cheating or not, and for this particular racing line that ingored the white lines those at the top, such as Laige, Box, Lightning and Raceboy, they are the fastest at taking this particular line at Monza. It is a level playing field and it's down to the drivers discretion to take the line that these guys are taking in order to be competitive. We are all racing drivers and of course in a sport that revolves around being the fastest we are all going "explore" as much of the track as we can to gain that extra time, whether it be cutting the track "legally" or getting the inch closer to a wall or exploiting a grey area.

Think of it like this in a way. How many people complained about Ford at Le Mans. They clearly sandbagged at Silverstone and played by all the rules. At the end of Le Mans they were clearly faster by a strong margin then those around them without a turbo engine. They played by the rules and came out on top. I can be seen as a bit of a hollow victory as they were so much faster anyways and raced no one. Now think of those cutting the track at Monza as the Fords. They are playing by the games rules and aren't actually cheating and those that aren't cutting are at a disadvantage, like the cars at Le Mans that didn't have a turbo.

With regards to the Racing etiquette I do think they are referring to the 1v1s as it's more easily manageable there but in the rivals it's harder to police because you have to review thousands of times and ESL I very much doubt is capable of policing that many times.

Again, sum up, morally I think it's wrong however from the games point of view it's legal. I'd rather race between the white lines and not between the grass areas but this is Turn 10s rules for this track and we are all on the same playing field and whether we like it or not the option is there and it's considered clean. All we can do is race the way the game says and push T10 to address corner cutting and improve their system
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#13 Posted : Tuesday, August 9, 2016 3:38:42 AM(UTC)
I disagree in saying that there is nothing to be done here. We've been fighting against cutting for months leading to new initiatives from Turn 10 including track changes and race marshals. Off of recent memory I think of the FM6: Apex event which had a description that promoted corner cutting. As a community, including some of the more popular community leaders, we asked for Turn 10 to address this and they followed through. It's just a small example of what happens when a community comes together demanding change. Unfortunately the problem here is that the same community leaders are now split on the issue of Monza cutting because of the prize list implications. What has changed? Why are we just suddenly okay with the same behavior we have tried to extinguish?

I implore both Turn 10 and ESL officials to also chime in and show an ounce of transparency. I want to reiterate how much attention this Racing Championship is bringing to players outside Forza looking in. It's the largest prize pool offered in any racing game in recent history. Here was the absolute first comment I read from a player who does not currently own Forza, but is invested in PC sim racing: "Everything about that lap is atrocious. Sad to see Forza still not even close to a decent sim." Obviously the announcement recent of Forza coming to PC has generated hype, but we need to set a good example of what the Forza community represents, not taking every exploit possible all in the name for the chance of $$$.
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#14 Posted : Tuesday, August 9, 2016 4:19:41 AM(UTC)
My argument to what you're saying Zabbzi is that people have always cheated Monza, prize or not. Look at any Monza leaderboard time through the classes and Monza is cheated. Doesn't matter if there's a prizes at the end or not, people will cut the track. Look at any track for that matter through the leaderboards and people cut it so to say people are only cutting because there's a prize at the end is somewhat bogus. D-X Monza is cheated and so is every other cuttable track for that matter
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#15 Posted : Tuesday, August 9, 2016 4:41:45 AM(UTC)
I don't see anyone completely removing a turn, like the way the chicane used to be. I don't know about OP, but I don't see any problem with Monza's racing line. I think you are getting way out there in terms of riding kerbs and corner cutting. Corner cutting to me would be completely eliminating the turn. If all the top runners stayed between the white lines at all times, THEY WILL STILL BEAT YOU!
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#16 Posted : Tuesday, August 9, 2016 5:21:28 AM(UTC)
I reiterate the point, it is the same problem of the Lamborghini Trophy.
The only thing I do not understand is why it was proposed again Monza.

Same track same discussions, no solution.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#17 Posted : Tuesday, August 9, 2016 6:19:02 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MRT Morongaro Go to Quoted Post
I reiterate the point, it is the same problem of the Lamborghini Trophy.
The only thing I do not understand is why it was proposed again Monza.

Same track same discussions, no solution.


I did see a barrier at the chicane? Or am I hallucinating???
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#18 Posted : Wednesday, August 10, 2016 5:55:39 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ezrae Go to Quoted Post
I don't see anyone completely removing a turn, like the way the chicane used to be. I don't know about OP, but I don't see any problem with Monza's racing line. I think you are getting way out there in terms of riding kerbs and corner cutting. Corner cutting to me would be completely eliminating the turn. If all the top runners stayed between the white lines at all times, THEY WILL STILL BEAT YOU!


The first corners can be completely cut.

The second corner/chicane can still be cut but it's debatable how "clean" that is since you're technically using the curbs.

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#19 Posted : Thursday, August 11, 2016 7:36:49 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RPM Swerve Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ezrae Go to Quoted Post
I don't see anyone completely removing a turn, like the way the chicane used to be. I don't know about OP, but I don't see any problem with Monza's racing line. I think you are getting way out there in terms of riding kerbs and corner cutting. Corner cutting to me would be completely eliminating the turn. If all the top runners stayed between the white lines at all times, THEY WILL STILL BEAT YOU!


The first corners can be completely cut.

The second corner/chicane can still be cut but it's debatable how "clean" that is since you're technically using the curbs.



No, I don't think so. If you cut the very first turn, you will get a dirty lap. Also if you cut the first turn on the second chicane, you will get a dirty lap. I see one turn and one turn only that can be cut on Monza. If you really want to call it that, more like riding the kerb. that would be the second turn. You have to keep tire on the track in the very first turn whether it's 1/8 inch or a foot of tire, or it will be dirty. Same goes for first turn second chicane. When I say cutting a turn I mean going straight and not turning at all or barely turning. Sorta like Hock Ring the first turn.

Edited by user Thursday, August 11, 2016 8:12:35 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#20 Posted : Thursday, August 11, 2016 8:53:38 AM(UTC)
IMO only. I think if you have at least some rubber of at least two tires on the track it should be clean. Also I think you should leave the top runners alone. They put in the time to test the track limits and I say good for them. It does not matter how you make them drive the track, they will still be fast. When I follow some of their ghosts, I am amazed at how they make the Mustang go so fast. I love to rival them, it amazes me how they drive so well.
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#21 Posted : Friday, August 12, 2016 3:25:48 AM(UTC)
For me is not easy to follow and remember all the events, should be awesome if is all integrated with outlook calendar 😎

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