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Rank: C-Class Racing License
#26 Posted : Wednesday, April 6, 2016 12:45:37 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Clutch63 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Vicc Damone Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Clutch63 Go to Quoted Post
Weak points through out. 11 Corvette models and only 2 are in the same gen. And those are still massively different. Then there's the CR.7, but that's different from the C7 Z06, and that replaced the 2014 Stingray. That's also why we don't have the C6 Z06 or GS anymore, but we have the ZR-1. Camaro is the same. We don't have the 1st gen Z/28, because we have the SS model. Also why they got rid of the 2010 SS, because we have that gens Z/28. If you wanna race in the lower tier get the SS Anniversary. Also, the newer Genesis is in the game because the older gen looked out dated and by comparison is weaker. I could go on and on about it with multiple models like the GT-R SpecV, the 2010 Ford GT500, Boss 429, 2013 Boss 302, and Dodge Challenger SRT. The Charger is there because the Hellcat wasn't in the game yet. Anything else to explain?


Thanks for the reply clutch,

The Camaros 10' and 15' are the same generation but the front nose and the rear end even the base engine are different.

There are other car makes in the game there have duplicates as well.

I don't mind duplicates at all, but favoring other cars to "A less superior car" is not right in my opinion .


Anytime! I love adding to the debate, because it is something that some people want addressed. My opinion though on duplicates of cars, but different trims, is that we just don't need them. Like, I don't need the SRT-8 if I have the Hellcat because I'm going to be racing the Hellcat more. The SRT-8 will just sit in my garage. Other than a facelift they look similar. And I, maybe speaking for myself or not, would rather have the newer model. The hype around the Hellcat and Z/28 is great and being able to drive them in the game is amazing because there's a chance I won't be able to in real life(Let's hope that turns out to be false).



I don't know too much about the Chargers but the 2010 camaro and the 2015 look different to me.

If replacing an older car for the newer model then let's get rid of all the corvettes and only keep the 2015.

I would hate that ,but that what the contradiction boils down too.

You see where I'm getting at? It's like "keep all these but let's get rid of some of these"

I really hope licensing is not the issue here.
Rank: Series Champion
#27 Posted : Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:01:38 PM(UTC)
It always comes down to licensing. If it were free then we would you still have all the cars from the past games.
Rank: Moderator
#28 Posted : Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:04:08 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: jfiler Go to Quoted Post
It always comes down to licensing. If it were free then we would you still have all the cars from the past games.


I don't think so automatically. As I wrote above, expense to develop each car for each game and the overall vision for the game design are factors as well.
Rank: Series Champion
#29 Posted : Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:07:35 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ManteoMax Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jfiler Go to Quoted Post
It always comes down to licensing. If it were free then we would you still have all the cars from the past games.


I don't think so automatically. As I wrote above, expense to develop each car for each game and the overall vision for the game design are factors as well.


Example:
You had the LT1 in the fm5 so why is it not in fm6? There's no need to scan or model it because it's already done. Why pay the licensing fee for both the LT1 and Z28 when we can just pay for the faster of the two

Edited by user Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:09:31 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Moderator
#30 Posted : Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:26:41 PM(UTC)
I linked the below quote in my initial post. The claim "no need to scan or model [a car from a previous game] because it's already done" is not correct.

Originally Posted by: JONK1969 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ManteoMax Go to Quoted Post
(snipped)...maybe Jonk or someone else there can comment, but if the ForzaTech engine is evolving, cars have to be redone for both physics and sound and light and function (wipers et al) for the new night and wet features, it's not just a port from one game to the next.


That is correct; every car that goes into Forza takes considerable time & effort to build, test, tune, license, etc. Some more than others. Forza 6 shipped with over 450 cars, many of which were updated from Forza 5 or Horizon 2 (a lot of work by a lot of people), many of which were updated from Forza 360 games (considerably more effort in terms of time & resource), and many of which are brand new to the series (a massive effort taking many months per car).

None of these cars get magically ported from one game to the next with the press of a button or running of a script. It takes artists, engineers, audio designers, gameplay designers, testers, and licensing specialists a lot of time and effort that most of you don't think about, and really shouldn't have to, when you get behind the virtual wheel and take them for a spin. Track or world expansions are all that effort multiplied by a very big number.

All that effort mentioned above sometimes comes with additional cost to the player (buying the full game or buying DLC car packs or expansions), and sometimes no cost (free cars or free expansions).


Rank: A-Class Racing License
User is suspended until 4/12/2045 3:18:22 AM(UTC)
#31 Posted : Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:39:10 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: jfiler Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ManteoMax Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jfiler Go to Quoted Post
It always comes down to licensing. If it were free then we would you still have all the cars from the past games.


I don't think so automatically. As I wrote above, expense to develop each car for each game and the overall vision for the game design are factors as well.


Example:
You had the LT1 in the fm5 so why is it not in fm6? There's no need to scan or model it because it's already done. Why pay the licensing fee for both the LT1 and Z28 when we can just pay for the faster of the two


I don't think there is any licencing fee for a lot of cars in the game. I remember a video where Dan mentioned that nowadays car companies go towards Microsoft / Turn 10 asking for them to put their newest shining car model in the game. So in the case of the Camaro, I'm sure Chevrolet would much rather see their newest model in the game than the one from a couple year old.

Too many cars in the game that are very alike isn't good either so I support Turn 10 in removing some cars that are almost identical to newer ones. For example I own a Ford Focus Mk3, the Mk4 from december 2014 is basically the same car with the only big visual difference being the restyled front bumper (AKA they made it uglier :p). The dashboard has been revamped as well but it is basically still the same car. The all-new Focus will come in 2017 and I assume that will be the Mk5 then. So for the standard Focus models, Mk1, Mk2, Mk3/Mk4 and Mk5 will be the 4 real Focus cars. Suppose all those would be in the game, there is really not that much point in having both Mk3 AND Mk4 in the game. It makes sense if Turn 10 decides to model the Mk4 as well to just have the Mk3 replaced by it.

Before Forza 6 I played GT6 on the PS3 and what really annoyed me there was all the endless copies and copies and more copies of the same car. There are a few dozens of Mazda Miata's in the game and most of them are just duplicates (MX5 vs Miata vs Eunos). Most rediculous car is even the Nissan GT-R when it was driving around as a covered car. You can really drive it around like that in GT6 as well as a separate car. It's just beyond rediculous and stupid.

Edited by user Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:40:44 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

@sofa: XBO 1TB + Elite Controller ~ Samsung 65" SUHD curved 3D LED TV ~ 5.1 surround home theatre
@rig: XBO 1TB ~ obutto r3volution ~ Thrustmaster TX + T3PA + TH8A + Leather 28 GT ~ Samsung 50" 3D Plasma TV ~ H&K Soundsticks III
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#32 Posted : Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:47:49 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Vicc Damone Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Clutch63 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Vicc Damone Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Clutch63 Go to Quoted Post
Weak points through out. 11 Corvette models and only 2 are in the same gen. And those are still massively different. Then there's the CR.7, but that's different from the C7 Z06, and that replaced the 2014 Stingray. That's also why we don't have the C6 Z06 or GS anymore, but we have the ZR-1. Camaro is the same. We don't have the 1st gen Z/28, because we have the SS model. Also why they got rid of the 2010 SS, because we have that gens Z/28. If you wanna race in the lower tier get the SS Anniversary. Also, the newer Genesis is in the game because the older gen looked out dated and by comparison is weaker. I could go on and on about it with multiple models like the GT-R SpecV, the 2010 Ford GT500, Boss 429, 2013 Boss 302, and Dodge Challenger SRT. The Charger is there because the Hellcat wasn't in the game yet. Anything else to explain?


Thanks for the reply clutch,

The Camaros 10' and 15' are the same generation but the front nose and the rear end even the base engine are different.

There are other car makes in the game there have duplicates as well.

I don't mind duplicates at all, but favoring other cars to "A less superior car" is not right in my opinion .


Anytime! I love adding to the debate, because it is something that some people want addressed. My opinion though on duplicates of cars, but different trims, is that we just don't need them. Like, I don't need the SRT-8 if I have the Hellcat because I'm going to be racing the Hellcat more. The SRT-8 will just sit in my garage. Other than a facelift they look similar. And I, maybe speaking for myself or not, would rather have the newer model. The hype around the Hellcat and Z/28 is great and being able to drive them in the game is amazing because there's a chance I won't be able to in real life(Let's hope that turns out to be false).



I don't know too much about the Chargers but the 2010 camaro and the 2015 look different to me.

If replacing an older car for the newer model then let's get rid of all the corvettes and only keep the 2015.

I would hate that ,but that what the contradiction boils down too.

You see where I'm getting at? It's like "keep all these but let's get rid of some of these"

I really hope licensing is not the issue here.


You're missing the point. There's no need for 2 vehicles of the same generation. Hence why we dont have the 5th gen Camaro SS, C6 Z06/GS. and the Challenger SRT-8.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#33 Posted : Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:56:04 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Vicc Damone Go to Quoted Post
1. I don't know too much about the Chargers but the 2010 camaro and the 2015 look different to me.

2. If replacing an older car for the newer model then let's get rid of all the corvettes and only keep the 2015.

3. I would hate that ,but that what the contradiction boils down too.

4. You see where I'm getting at? It's like "keep all these but let's get rid of some of these"

5. I really hope licensing is not the issue here.


1. The Camaro Z/28, as stated previously, is a facelifted 5th gen Camaro. The 2010 SS started it, the 2012 ZL1 was a refresh of sorts (kinda), the '15 is a facelift. 2016 Model Year Camaros start the 6th generation.

2. Apples and Oranges. Someone used the M3s earlier, so I'll use it too. The reason why the E30, E36, E46, and E92 are still in, even though the F30 is in (M4 because BMW naming), is because those are different generations. With the Corvettes, we have the '53, and C1-C7 eras. Top-of-the-line model from each, ok, but still one of each.

3. I would hate that too, but the contradiction doesn't really boil down to that. It's getting rid of, say, the C6 Grand Sport and the C6 ZO6 to have the C6 ZR1 instead, not getting rid of all the Corvettes because the 2015 ZO6 is in.

4. It's just getting rid of duplicates from the same generation. Not the entire model range. We do have more than one Civic, right? More than one Mustang, more than one Lancer Evo, more than one WRX STI.....see where I'm going?
-Addendum: I don't disagree with your post. I do like having the duplicates in, because A. It allows you to see the progress made along the generation's life, and B. It allows you to compare them all on track. I do miss the 2005 Gallardo, the 2003 Murcielago, the 1999 360 Modena, and so on, but I'm not the one making the game, and I'm not the one that has to deal with the companies that made said cars. All I pay for is my download.

5. That, money, and resources are all probably why. The degrees of influence each has I know not.

Now does this explain generations that went missing? Maybe. There was at one (well, more than one really) point in time a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gen Supra in the same game....4th is still here but gen's 2 and 3 are MIA. I used the Civics earlier, so while we have several, we did have more. 1999, anyone?

I do question the sort of "backwards" removals though, like the Honda NSX-R GT being dropped when the standard NSX-R is still here. Can't really think of another example at the moment.
One of "The 50"
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#34 Posted : Wednesday, April 6, 2016 1:59:31 PM(UTC)
I was thinking the same with the mustang... I'instead of giving us so many newer mustangs that are nearly identical I'd rather have some older fastbacks or special editions.

Rank: Series Champion
#35 Posted : Wednesday, April 6, 2016 2:07:09 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Breyzipp Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jfiler Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ManteoMax Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jfiler Go to Quoted Post
It always comes down to licensing. If it were free then we would you still have all the cars from the past games.


I don't think so automatically. As I wrote above, expense to develop each car for each game and the overall vision for the game design are factors as well.


Example:
You had the LT1 in the fm5 so why is it not in fm6? There's no need to scan or model it because it's already done. Why pay the licensing fee for both the LT1 and Z28 when we can just pay for the faster of the two


I don't think there is any licencing fee for a lot of cars in the game. I remember a video where Dan mentioned that nowadays car companies go towards Microsoft / Turn 10 asking for them to put their newest shining car model in the game. So in the case of the Camaro, I'm sure Chevrolet would much rather see their newest model in the game than the one from a couple year old.

.


If that's the case then why are there multiple Mustangs and Vettes. There's the 2015 mustang and the 2016 Mustang gt350R. Why not just use the 2016?
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#36 Posted : Wednesday, April 6, 2016 4:18:25 PM(UTC)
The issue with replacing models rather than adding, in my opinion, is when cars that compete with one another straight from factory are never in the same game at the same time. My friends and I are fans of taking these competing stock cars around various tracks to see which ones are truly the best engineered from factory. But obviously not everyone enjoys leaving the cars stock and prefer only the highest performance versions to be tuned for their highest class possible. When every car is tuned, all that matters is the base chassis. So those type of players complain when cars with identical chassis are in the game at the same time. They have no concern for having say the Mustang GT, Camaro SS, and Challenger Scat Pack of the same year/equal generation. They could have just one pony car chassis and leave it at that. Frankly, satisfying that group is a stronger business case for T10, so join the club and make do with what we do get.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#37 Posted : Wednesday, April 6, 2016 5:00:25 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SuckageXP Go to Quoted Post
The issue with replacing models rather than adding, in my opinion, is when cars that compete with one another straight from factory are never in the same game at the same time. My friends and I are fans of taking these competing stock cars around various tracks to see which ones are truly the best engineered from factory. But obviously not everyone enjoys leaving the cars stock and prefer only the highest performance versions to be tuned for their highest class possible. When every car is tuned, all that matters is the base chassis. So those type of players complain when cars with identical chassis are in the game at the same time. They have no concern for having say the Mustang GT, Camaro SS, and Challenger Scat Pack of the same year/equal generation. They could have just one pony car chassis and leave it at that. Frankly, satisfying that group is a stronger business case for T10, so join the club and make do with what we do get.


I totally respect your view but everyone has different opinions and feedback.
Rank: X-Class Racing License
#38 Posted : Wednesday, April 6, 2016 6:44:44 PM(UTC)
I would love it if every car that had ever been in Forza could stay in the game once it was in and never be taken out. That would be about 1200 or so? That would be fantastic.

But would they all fit on the disk? How much would it cost? How long would it take?

You can kinda see where I'm going with this.

Only so many cars either can or will be put into the game based on any of a dozen reasons that we can never know about. Priorities are made, cuts are made, they did the best they could with what they had according to what they wanted to accomplish. Car X got cut so car car Y could make it in... we'll never really know why a specific car is/not in the game.

Edited by user Wednesday, April 6, 2016 6:45:40 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#39 Posted : Wednesday, April 6, 2016 8:53:41 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: D SILVARU Go to Quoted Post
I was thinking the same with the mustang... I'instead of giving us so many newer mustangs that are nearly identical I'd rather have some older fastbacks or special editions.


They're not identical. The GT and Shelby GT-350 R are in all respect two different cars. One is a sports car, the other is a notch short of a race car. Also, 2 isn't exactly "so many."
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#40 Posted : Wednesday, April 6, 2016 9:20:14 PM(UTC)
While I enjoy a lot of cars, and would like to have every make and model in the game, I am realistic enough to understand how difficult that would be, and that the data storage alone would probably make it impossible.
I am happy to see a lot of different (new and old models) cars being added to the franchise. I'm not sure exactly which direction the franchise is heading, but I plan to adapt no matter what. I'm not much of a complainer, and I have always gotten much more than expected for the price I paid.
But, more cars and more tracks are always a good idea.


Peace
Fast is NOT celebrating a win after bumping your opponents off the track, or cutting corners.
Fast is overtaking your opponents, without incident, while staying within the regulation boundaries of the track.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#41 Posted : Thursday, April 7, 2016 4:54:31 AM(UTC)
T10 is quite funny as they give different answers to different topics....

So when people are wishing different cars, one answer was that it is quite expensive to get a car into the game and they need a certainty that a lot of people want the car.

BUT if it is THAT expensive why are some cars only for a short time in the series, when we say that a lot of players switch from one game to the other with release. From a cost time of view DLC cars don't make much sense at a later point. Unless you transfer them into the next game. But that has not happend to a lot of cars.

Other example: T10 said that they could not transfer all cars to the nextgen as the quality wouldn't be the same. Fair enough.....wasn't there a video about the scanning of a Veyron before FM3, where they said that the Data is exact enough for years. And as there are a handfull of cars that were there from the beginning with basically the same issues, I really don't believe they made the same mistakes with a new scan.....

So, the data is there. We could have a lot of cars...so it has to be licensing or maybe space? I believe not all cars can get on the disc. And maybe MS has restrictions to patches and/or DLCs that only allow a certain number of cars.
Then there is licensing. I highly believe that Mercedes does not want older cars in the game. Maybe their marketing team thinks, that less people buy a new E-Class if they like the 2010 modell in the game more....who knows. And as marketing people are very strange and often the same, I guess other brands do this as well.

I would just love if T10 could make deals that allow them to keep the cars and just add new models to it, so that we have a lot of variety just like GT has with it's one million civics :)
Rank: Racing Permit
#42 Posted : Thursday, April 7, 2016 6:43:43 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: D SILVARU Go to Quoted Post
I was thinking the same with the mustang... I'instead of giving us so many newer mustangs that are nearly identical I'd rather have some older fastbacks or special editions.


Could never understand why in the world they went with the coupe version of the 65 Mustang instead of the fastback, unless maybe someone at T10 had owned one in the past and had a soft spot for it.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#43 Posted : Thursday, April 7, 2016 9:28:55 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ledfoot733 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: D SILVARU Go to Quoted Post
I was thinking the same with the mustang... I'instead of giving us so many newer mustangs that are nearly identical I'd rather have some older fastbacks or special editions.


Could never understand why in the world they went with the coupe version of the 65 Mustang instead of the fastback, unless maybe someone at T10 had owned one in the past and had a soft spot for it.


It all depends on if they can find one that is in great condition and runs good and if the owner will let them use it or not. Also if the car company will let them use it or not. It all depends on licensing issues. My father in law has I believe a 65 or 66 mustang vinyl top coupe, red with white interior, very nice car and fun to ride in. front end floats a little when you are going fast.

Edited by user Thursday, April 7, 2016 9:29:59 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: On the Podium
#44 Posted : Thursday, April 7, 2016 10:20:40 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Dante3003 Go to Quoted Post

BUT if it is THAT expensive why are some cars only for a short time in the series, when we say that a lot of players switch from one game to the other with release.


In a word: Licensing.


In a few words:

Quote:
Complicating matters further, in most cases, developers are actually paying auto manufactures to include their cars in games. Ford confirmed game licensing actually generated revenue for the company. But if Ford really wanted a car in a game that wasn’t going to make the cut—Mustangs are no doubt a sexier sell than a Ford ST—the roles would reverse, and Ford would pay the developer to "subsidize" that placement.

Ford reports these in-game advertisements are extremely worthwhile to their brand. In research conducted by Interpret, they discovered that participants of an in-game Ford ad exposure saw:


In summary: Car manufacturer tells Turn 10 "we will let you have [desirable car] if you also include [less desirable car] and [alternate version of car] as well."

Edited by user Thursday, April 7, 2016 10:22:42 AM(UTC)  | Reason: .

Rank: Forza Staff
 8 users liked this post.
#45 Posted : Friday, April 8, 2016 11:25:43 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PJTierney Go to Quoted Post

In summary: Car manufacturer tells Turn 10 "we will let you have [desirable car] if you also include [less desirable car] and [alternate version of car] as well."


While negotiating with manufacturers is of course a major factor in determining which cars we can put into our games, this particular theory isn't a scenario we encounter. Ultimately, any car that appears in Forza is a car we at Turn 10 decided to include.

For cars that appeared in a previous Forza title but do not in the current game, there are many reasons. I'll summarize a few here:

Sometimes it's a choice we made to make room for another car we felt was more important for the title. Game design balance might be a factor. Or disc space: there's only so much room on the physical disc. Project budget or schedule impact another: porting and licensing cars from earlier titles in addition to building and licensing new cars all come with resource cost we have to prioritize.

Sometimes we decide that a car has been made redundant by a higher trim version or newer model that otherwise is too similar to an older model to justify both.

Sometimes we are unable to license a particular car by a manufacturer, or any car by a manufacturer (or even multiple OEMs represented by the same agency) for one reason or another, even if it was in last year's game. There are quite a few cars in the community top 100 list that fall under this category, but we'll keep trying.

There's a reason that no other racing game features so many manufacturers: it's really hard! It takes a dedicated team of professional licensing and legal experts working year-round to maintain strong relationships with OEMs, race teams, and the agencies and lawyers who represent them, as well negotiating ever-changing contract terms, costs, and often changing personal contacts.

The desire to have every car that has appeared in Forza to be included in every new Forza is understandable, but to expect that is just not realistic from a game design, licensing, or business perspective.

We know many of you would like to see the return of some great cars from earlier Forza titles, and thanks to ManteoMax's awesome list we have a pretty good idea which ones, new and old, are the most important to the community for consideration in DLC or future titles. In the past 2 months, we've delivered 15 cars from the top 100 production and top 100 race cars list. We'll keep at it, too.

Edited by user Friday, April 8, 2016 1:46:24 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Grammar police!

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#46 Posted : Friday, April 8, 2016 11:43:47 AM(UTC)
I love when someone representing Turn 10 in some manner comes in and makes a post like that one. Thanks for the insight, Jonk!
Rank: Driver's License
 3 users liked this post.
#47 Posted : Friday, April 8, 2016 11:53:16 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: four cam tbird Go to Quoted Post
I love when someone representing Turn 10 in some manner comes in and makes a post like that one. Thanks for the insight, Jonk!





Rank: Forza Staff
 1 user liked this post.
#48 Posted : Friday, April 8, 2016 5:11:43 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Breyzipp Go to Quoted Post

(snipped)
I don't think there is any licencing fee for a lot of cars in the game. I remember a video where Dan mentioned that nowadays car companies go towards Microsoft / Turn 10 asking for them to put their newest shining car model in the game. So in the case of the Camaro, I'm sure Chevrolet would much rather see their newest model in the game than the one from a couple year old.


As much as we'd love this to be true like it is for TV and movies, it's just not the case with games yet. Even when a manufacturer asks us to put their shiny new car in the game, it still has to be licensed, which isn't free. It all piles up if you multiply that by dozens of car makers and multiple models for each. But that's the price of doing business. There are benefits for us in that some of these manufacturers will amplify attention for our games or DLC on their website and social media.

If we were a big Hollywood studio making a blockbuster summer action movie, they'd be banging down our doors asking to provide cars, even co-market the game in their ad campaigns. You know, like Bruce Wayne driving a Jeep to save Gotham. Or James Bond driving a BMW like he did in the 80s. I'm sure Ian Fleming rolled over in his grave more than once when that happened.

Edited by user Friday, April 8, 2016 5:13:08 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Series Champion
#49 Posted : Friday, April 8, 2016 6:32:57 PM(UTC)
Thanks for taking the time to reply to this. :-)
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#50 Posted : Sunday, April 10, 2016 2:53:44 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Clutch63 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: D SILVARU Go to Quoted Post
I was thinking the same with the mustang... I'instead of giving us so many newer mustangs that are nearly identical I'd rather have some older fastbacks or special editions.


They're not identical. The GT and Shelby GT-350 R are in all respect two different cars. One is a sports car, the other is a notch short of a race car. Also, 2 isn't exactly "so many."


I was in no way referring to the 350.. I was talking about the two gt500s from the same era.

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