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Rank: Forza Staff
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#26 Posted : Thursday, December 10, 2015 1:43:36 PM(UTC)
I admire all the work and hypothesis that has gone into how players move and are rated in Leagues. Some really great stuff. Fortunately, as I will explain, it is actually much more simple.

Divisions - You are placed/moved into a division based on the TruSkill you've developed for Leagues. The more you win, the more your TruSkill increases, the more you are at the back of the pack the more it decreases. Leagues has a separate TruSkill rating than Hoppers as we figured some may race differently between the two. Some have noted that they were pre-placed into a Division the first time they played Leagues. If you had never played Leagues before, we use your Hopper TruSkill to make sure you started approximately where you should. Once your TruSkill in Leagues is verifed, it switches to using the TruSkill for Leagues exclusively from there on out.

Leaderboards - Points are awarded as your finish position inverted + bonus points for any players you finish in front of that have a higher skill rating for you. Your Leaderboard finish position has no impact to the Division you are assigned. It is there to capture your progress, payout for your effort and track competing against other players.

Hope this helps clear it up.

- Triton
Rank: On the Podium
#27 Posted : Thursday, December 10, 2015 2:38:29 PM(UTC)
Sounds good, thanks for clarifying.

Regarding TruSkill in Hoppers, is it effective? Based on my racing history (I podium over 50% of all Hopper races I do) I'm guessing I have a high TruSkill, but I'm often finishing very far ahead of most of the field, with the exception of 2 or 3 similarly fast people in a room. Based on TruSkill alone I would assume that half the field would be near the leading pace level; maybe it's due to a lower number of people in the Hoppers concurrently that everybody is bunched in together?
Rank: Forza Staff
#28 Posted : Thursday, December 10, 2015 4:48:49 PM(UTC)
Yes, numbers make an impact. The more concurrency the better it is for Hoppers. Leagues is different because when you match it requires to be in a certain skill range.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#29 Posted : Thursday, December 10, 2015 5:06:08 PM(UTC)
Dear Forza.....please tell me why I continue to be kicked after one race of S Class Ghost League. It is substantially frustrating. I now have been kicked while going to the next race (race 2) 4 or 5 times. [Mod Edit - Abbreviated profanity, profanity and profanity that is disguised but still alludes to the words are not permitted- fyerball ]

Edited by user Friday, December 11, 2015 11:57:05 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#30 Posted : Friday, December 11, 2015 9:43:33 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RBW TRITON Go to Quoted Post
I admire all the work and hypothesis that has gone into how players move and are rated in Leagues. Some really great stuff. Fortunately, as I will explain, it is actually much more simple.

Divisions - You are placed/moved into a division based on the TruSkill you've developed for Leagues. The more you win, the more your TruSkill increases, the more you are at the back of the pack the more it decreases. Leagues has a separate TruSkill rating than Hoppers as we figured some may race differently between the two. Some have noted that they were pre-placed into a Division the first time they played Leagues. If you had never played Leagues before, we use your Hopper TruSkill to make sure you started approximately where you should. Once your TruSkill in Leagues is verifed, it switches to using the TruSkill for Leagues exclusively from there on out.

Leaderboards - Points are awarded as your finish position inverted + bonus points for any players you finish in front of that have a higher skill rating for you. Your Leaderboard finish position has no impact to the Division you are assigned. It is there to capture your progress, payout for your effort and track competing against other players.

Hope this helps clear it up.

- Triton



Aahhh....

This explains my situation. I have been asked tons of times how I got demoted as it seems it is rare for that to happen.

I started off in pinnacle and had played multiplayer before attempting leagues. I was winning or placing frequently in multiplayer then. I haven't played multiplayer much since.

The last league I played before quitting on them for a while had the S2000 in it. I was being purposely wrecked, used as a brake, used to corner better, and on and on. I finished at the back or mid pack a lot and won maybe two or three. I gave leagues a long break.

When I tried a new league I found I had been demoted. This was the Executive Heavyweights League. I raced that entire league in elite division. I decided to take a que from iRacing's belief. If you are involved in a wreck you probably share some responsibility. While this isn't exactly true in Forza (intentional wreckers) most times there was something I could have done different. Also, I think it was ONR TNEAGLE mentioned one of the reasons why Raceboy77 is so fast is because he is a great racer. He is very aware, adept at anticipating wrecks, and so forth. So I was more cautious, paid more attention, braked earlier when drafting, anticipated wrecks better, and so on. As one racer put it, "You were working miracles..." I really was not. I was only aggressive when I knew for sure I would not wreck myself and the other racer. That thought process led to many fast clean laps. I won or placed in almost every race in the elite division of that league. I wound up finishing in top five although I didn'tdidn't start racing till mid weekweek or later.

Fast forward to ultimate grand tourer and I was promoted back to pinnacle. In this division I often finish mid pack. I won a handful but, finished in the last quarter of the back a lot. I find vehicle selection and tune are more critical against a higher level of competition. I finished better when I made better selections for the track. I finished second but I did a heck of a lot of races to do so. I am still in pinnacle.

Based on the description above I suspect I will bounce between the two divisions. I have and still believe my skill level of competition lies in the top quarter of elite to the bottom quarter or so of pinnacle.

Thanks for the explanation.
FM1 = New XBox / FM2 = New XBox 360 / FM5 = New XBox One
............................................Racing Inspires.........
Rank: On the Podium
#31 Posted : Friday, December 11, 2015 5:15:09 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: RBW TRITON Go to Quoted Post
Yes, numbers make an impact. The more concurrency the better it is for Hoppers. Leagues is different because when you match it requires to be in a certain skill range.


Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

Regarding TrueSkill and Divisions, would this be a reasonable assumption?:

TrueSkill 0-10 = Grassroots
TrueSkill 10-20 = Enthusiast
TrueSkill 20-30 = Professional
TrueSkill 30-40 = Elite
TrueSkill 40-50 = Pinnacle
Rank: Forza Staff
 1 user liked this post.
#32 Posted : Friday, December 11, 2015 5:28:04 PM(UTC)
I don't have the numbers off hand but it isn't an even distribution. More range in the middle groups.
Rank: Racing Permit
 4 users liked this post.
#33 Posted : Friday, December 11, 2015 11:42:24 PM(UTC)
This gets kind of frustrating. I was racing in a lobby with 5 people. Progress to second place, there for a couple laps. Good for 400 points right, wrong! Last three people quit, I'm down to a hundred. Points should be handed out based on final standings as determined by how many people actually started the race, regardless of who dnf's. If someone rage quits, why do I lose points. It's even worse when it happens in Pinnacle as points are even harder to come by.

Is there a reason the point system works this way?

Also, is there a way of finding out your Trueskill score?

Edited by user Saturday, December 12, 2015 7:18:03 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
 2 users liked this post.
#34 Posted : Saturday, December 12, 2015 8:34:09 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: HamanEggz Go to Quoted Post
This gets kind of frustrating. I was racing in a lobby with 5 people. Progress to second place, there for a couple laps. Good for 400 points right, wrong! Last three people quit, I'm down to a hundred. Points should be handed out based on final standings as determined by how many people actually started the race, regardless of who dnf's. If someone rage quits, why do I lose points. It's even worse when it happens in Pinnacle as points are even harder to come by.

Is there a reason the point system works this way?

Also, is there a way of finding out your Trueskill score?


Agree with you there. Maybe some bonus for cleanlaps too. :-)
Rank: B-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#35 Posted : Sunday, December 13, 2015 5:37:20 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: HamanEggz Go to Quoted Post
This gets kind of frustrating. I was racing in a lobby with 5 people. Progress to second place, there for a couple laps. Good for 400 points right, wrong! Last three people quit, I'm down to a hundred. Points should be handed out based on final standings as determined by how many people actually started the race, regardless of who dnf's. If someone rage quits, why do I lose points. It's even worse when it happens in Pinnacle as points are even harder to come by.

Is there a reason the point system works this way?

Also, is there a way of finding out your Trueskill score?


I agree to a point but, people do get disconnected creating a DNF as well. It would be great if points were awarded based on how many racers started the race.

Both situations have happened to me in several races. The most disappointing was staring in 10th or so on Watkins Glenn. I took the lead by the end of the second lap and led the rest of the race. On the 2nd to last corner or so I got the disconnected from lobby message. All points lost...
FM1 = New XBox / FM2 = New XBox 360 / FM5 = New XBox One
............................................Racing Inspires.........
Rank: Racing Permit
#36 Posted : Sunday, December 13, 2015 4:00:41 PM(UTC)
Perhaps there should be a fine system. If you quit the race early you're forced to pay all the remaining drivers 100 points each.
Rank: On the Podium
 1 user liked this post.
#37 Posted : Sunday, December 13, 2015 5:18:20 PM(UTC)
Too complicated; awarding points based on how many people started sounds ideal.

On a side note I hope to see the starting grids in the general Hoppers get sorted by Fastest Lap in the future; it works well in Leagues and might help out a little with the first corner incidents that happen elsewhere.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#38 Posted : Saturday, December 26, 2015 2:31:40 PM(UTC)
[Mod Edit - thread merged - MM]
I was initially kind of excited for Leagues after hearing how players would be grouped with similar players, but it wasn't what I'd thought it would be. I was hoping this was going to be a way to group those who preferred clean, by the rules racing together, but I've made it to Elite and it doesn't seem to be much if any better than racing in the regular hoppers. If anything it seems like often I'm the only one who isn't cutting every "cutable" corner on tracks.
This made me wonder how leagues actually do group drivers. I've been grouped in Elite for quite some time now. If tiers are determined by times or finish positions, and clean laps (which I doubt, considering even clean with drafting is dirty) don't figure into it, then I'm wondering if by driving cleanly I will keep myself from ever getting to the top tier, since it's difficult to beat similarly skilled players who are in effect racing shorter distances. This also makes me wonder if I even want to reach the top tier, since, from all I've witnessed, I'd assume corner cutting players would be an even greater majority. I'd rather be the top finishing clean driver than finish 1st if it means I'd have to race dirty. I just tell myself that I actually won after all the black flags have been assessed (Although I've yet to find a way to then have the awards be retroactively adjusted.)
Can you drop tiers? I ask because if what I'm wondering above is so, then maybe cleaner racing can be found in the "lower" tiers. Maybe the middle tiers are where the fastest clean racers are most evident. If so, I'm actually hoping I can drop a tier. Does anyone know if this is possible?
Thanks

Edited by user Saturday, December 26, 2015 4:26:45 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#39 Posted : Saturday, December 26, 2015 4:24:05 PM(UTC)
Can't speak to the lower leagues, but Pinnacle is both a bit cleaner and much faster than Elite.
Rank: On the Podium
#40 Posted : Saturday, December 26, 2015 4:54:08 PM(UTC)
Pinnacle sees drivers regularly hit Top 100 and Top 50 laptimes in races. When the lobby size is under 12 it's usually very clean as well. There are a bunch of us who have been racing together for months now in that Division, and since we see each other all the time we generally focus on clean (and fast) racing with one another.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#41 Posted : Tuesday, December 29, 2015 10:47:33 PM(UTC)
[Mod Edit - thread merged, see previous posts - MM]

This is 100% honest, I've had forza since it came out and when I did the 1st ever leagues, I only did one race and was instantly placed into pinnacle. So me I assumed that it's a very easy ranking system. I have not been moved down to any rank at all ever. I got 1st in the last R ghost league as well. But I'm just wondering, how hard is it for you lower ranked people to move up? I always here people complain about the league and a lot of people say there ranks and they make it sound like pinnacle is some kind of impossible rank to get. Unless I'm just missing something I don't know. Although I do always race with people that are capable of getting or have 1st place times on the boards. Anyway how hard is it for you guys to rank up and what did you get placed in when you did your 1st league?

Edited by user Tuesday, December 29, 2015 10:52:29 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Hi 😛
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#42 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 3:30:00 AM(UTC)
I was initially placed in Elite. The last time the R-Class league came up I absolutely nailed it and won easily 90% of my races, and that got me promoted to Pinnacle. This week that league is back and in Pinnacle I'm running between 3rd and 5th in most races and easily a second or two per lap off the pace of the very fastest guys.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#43 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 8:35:06 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: JuularDT Go to Quoted Post

Thanks a lot for your input and indeed i am placing between the podiums with many wins and racing clean with no corner cutting.Although i am very tempted to cut corners since i see almost everybody doing it.Even guys above me in the leaderboard.....


Don't. I don't cut corners unless i'm beign forced off track and i need it to get back on (i.e. first turn on watkins glen). I'd rather not cut any corner and come 6th than cut every corner and come in 1st. Most of the time, the guys racing behind you seeing you are racing clean will take the example and do the same. Most of the time. It's just more rewarding for me. As for Yas Marina, I spectate. So much track cutting, I get crashed into all the time for having a different line than the cutters, and I must say it's not all that pleasant.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#44 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 11:42:34 AM(UTC)
yeah, that would be nice to know for sure.
" If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari. "
- Gilles Villeneuve





Rank: C-Class Racing License
#45 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 3:12:42 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: F1R Zonda Go to Quoted Post
[Mod Edit - thread merged, see previous posts - MM]

This is 100% honest, I've had forza since it came out and when I did the 1st ever leagues, I only did one race and was instantly placed into pinnacle. So me I assumed that it's a very easy ranking system. I have not been moved down to any rank at all ever. I got 1st in the last R ghost league as well. But I'm just wondering, how hard is it for you lower ranked people to move up? I always here people complain about the league and a lot of people say there ranks and they make it sound like pinnacle is some kind of impossible rank to get. Unless I'm just missing something I don't know. Although I do always race with people that are capable of getting or have 1st place times on the boards. Anyway how hard is it for you guys to rank up and what did you get placed in when you did your 1st league?


I started in grassroots and moved up each week just one division at a time until reaching elite. I have been demoted for 1/2 a week (ghost league was professional and collision elite that week). I have been in elite division since mid November if I remember right.
I always race as clean as possible in either ghost or collision. I don't know if that helps or hurts for truskill rankings. If I had to guess I would say my average finish is about 8th place in 18-24 person lobbies. Higher in ghost and lower in collision as I spend a lot of time dodging the corner dive bombers. I still don't know how they expect to make the turn with higher speed cars and super low handling. Kinda of hilarious when you hear them yelling at the person who they just hit that was on the racing line and turning into the apex just before mr 100mph brake at apex only runs into them.
One other thing that may or may not factor is that I mostly run in ghost now. My eyes and hands just aren't what they use to be so I skip P and X class or some of the vintage R racing series that have collisions turned on.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
#46 Posted : Wednesday, December 30, 2015 10:00:11 PM(UTC)
Here is the R Ghost track rotation in Professional in case any one is interested. Sorry for any misspellings. Not sure if all divisions have the same rotation. Let me know if I missed anything. Sometimes a lobby will skip over a track.

Le Mans Bugatti Circuit day
Sonoma Grand Prix Circuit
Indy Grand Prix Circuit alt
lime rock full circuit
prague short reverse
rio full reverse
bathurst
sonoma raceway full circuit (no chicane)
hockenheimring national circuit (short)
sebring day
Bernese Alps stadplatz
watkins glen short alt
lime rock south chicane
hockenheimring full
bugatti circuit night
rio national (short) forward
indy road grand prix circuit
brands hatch dry
spa night
yas marina full day
nordschliefe night
nurburing gp
long beach full
daytona international sports car circuit night
bernese alps festival circuit reverse
yas marina circuit (corkscrew)
brands hatch indy dry
spa day
sebring night
catalunya national circuit
silverstone international circuit
road atlanta club circuit
cota full
short daytona
prague full reverse
long beach east route
catalunya grand prix circuit full
road america full
laguna seca
cota west route (short)
nurburging plus GP full
road atlanta full
monza short
watkins glen full alt
Rank: On the Podium
#47 Posted : Thursday, December 31, 2015 3:04:32 AM(UTC)
As expected, no Le Mans Full, Monza Grand Prix, or even Monza Grand Prix alt.

Those tracks are vastly under-used online.
Rank: R-Class Racing License
#48 Posted : Friday, January 1, 2016 7:39:58 PM(UTC)
its weird. No Silverstone full either. Would love le mans full. zero wet tracks
Rank: Driver's License
#49 Posted : Friday, January 8, 2016 6:43:48 AM(UTC)
Does anyone know how the league point system works? I'm a very clean and very fast racer that enjoys the challenges that Forza 6 throws at me. With that said it is pretty irritating when I put in a lot of hard work to stay consistent and fast, and I, 1) Get first in a league lobby 2) Run the fastest lap 3) Cleanly pass other players and 4) Run all laps clean except when either hit by another player or during drafting in the straights. Then all I see is 1400 points and my buds that I race with will be in 4th, 5th, or 6th and will receive numbers of up to or around 3000 points. This to me is telling me that I must just be of a higher class but yet I still am sitting in Elite and not Pentacle when put into leagues. I don't know if anyone else is seeing this same thing and I haven't seen this issue on the forums yet so hopefully I'm not alone in this matter. I absolutely love the league concept and am enjoying it tremendously and look forward to some very fun and exciting races in the near future.
Rank: On the Podium
#50 Posted : Friday, January 8, 2016 6:59:42 AM(UTC)
100 points for completing a race.

100 points for every person you beat.

100 additional points for every person you beat who is ranked higher than you.


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