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Rank: A-Class Racing License
#76 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2015 3:37:31 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: F 16C VIPER Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PowerMaxed Carl Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: im2fast4u711 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PowerMaxed Carl Go to Quoted Post
I'm using the tx base and it feels so wrong, I use it everyday on the pc with iRacing and rfactor 2. Now I've decided to move to Xbox one to join friends online and I can't keep the car on track. I use the btcc/wtcc cars only at brands hatch in dry weather to run tests and change setting but nothing seems to work for me. I touch the inside kerb at surtees and the car just spins and I can't stop it. I'm not the best driver in the sim world but I can do clean laps on other sims but not on forza 6.

Is it me or the game?? I want to love this game but can't right now. I know it's early days and patches can fix issues but if the issue is me and no one else is feeling the same I'll retire now.

I can't feel weight in the wheel and the cars feel slippy all the time, in other games on Xbox one ( Pcars) the wheel feels heavy and I can feel the contact patch enabling me to control the car better.

Also the pedal are so sensitive in forza 6. From 0% to 100% is like moving the pedals 3/4 of an inch causing lock ups and wheel spin. Again this don't happen in other games I've try'd on Xbox one so I can't be down to the base/ pedal settings.

Any thoughts or ideas for me to try.??

Thanks Carl


Not really, it's pretty much the same for a lot of us. But, after you find a dor and sensitivity that you like you have to try and tune out some of the funkyness as best you can. You won't be the fastest, but it should help.



I normally set everything via the thrustmaster control panel on pc, so how do I set the dor and sens on the wheel? I've read about the mode button and spas etc but what are the values? 1 flash = ?? etc etc


DOR settings: http://ts.thrustmaster.c...qs/eng/thr_eng_00151.pdf

Sens Settings: http://ts.thrustmaster.c...qs/eng/thr_eng_00152.pdf


^ This.... Christian also mentioned the brake calibration before a race you have to fully depress the pedals 3 times or so and also only the master ffb setting in the Thrustmaster menu effects consoles the rest are for pc only. You can also adjust from within the controller settings themselves to further tweak the dor, like i used to run 630 dor with the deadzones from 0-95 in forza5, but that doesn't seem to work for me anymore in 6.

Edited by user Tuesday, September 15, 2015 3:45:45 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's License
#77 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2015 4:48:21 AM(UTC)
Sorry if there is already a topic on this.

Im having one problem with my wheel.
At the start or wen you end up stopped on the track some cars just dont wont to go in first gear.

Im only at the beginning of the game, in D class problem seems less.

But for example in rivals mothly on bathurst the car just dont want go wen standing still.

Anyone else having this problem and found a solution for it?
Would this be solved with having clutch peddals?

Thanks.

ps. I must say there is a huge improvement in wheeluse compared to forza 5. After trying out different setting of my senssitivity and angle im happyly surprised that
my wheel does work with forza 6.
Rank: Driver's License
#78 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:07:53 AM(UTC)
Great post. Now to figure out what wheel to save up for >_<
Rank: Driver's License
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#79 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:26:32 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Blue028 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mr MustardKaiju Go to Quoted Post
One thing that I would like to know in detail..

In FM5 it was almost impossible to get a good feel with the TX wheel and Sim steering, in FM6 the Sim option feels a lot better .. but I do not fully understand the differences between the two options.

What exactly is the difference between Simulation steering and Normal steering?


Simulation steering is unassisted, so your inputs on the wheel will be exactly translated to the game.

Normal steering has TWO assist built in to make driving easier, 1 is basically a weight transfer buffer that will reducing you input when the car is about to rapidly change direction, makes tankslappers less of a hassle. 2nd is a counter steer assist that will increase you input so there is less wheel work to control the slide. (holding a drift on 900 degrees normal steering will only require about half of the actual wheel rotation to reach full lock, depending on wheel setting)



I think I might have an idea as to why this (in theory viable option) doesn't work as intended in the game.

In a real car...when the rear breaks loose, your front wheels will try to keep following the direction you are going. This will result in the steering wheel compensating for the angle of the car (created by the rear end of the car stepping out)...in other words the steering wheel will turn automatically (while drifting IRL I actually often let the steering wheel slide through my hands). This actually is lacking (to a certain degree) in the current Force Feedback, causing a steering input that will countereffect the simulation...thus giving a unrealistic effect.
Rank: Racing Permit
#80 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:50:03 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FlyLastShadow Go to Quoted Post
Sorry if there is already a topic on this.

Im having one problem with my wheel.
At the start or wen you end up stopped on the track some cars just dont wont to go in first gear.

Im only at the beginning of the game, in D class problem seems less.

But for example in rivals mothly on bathurst the car just dont want go wen standing still.

Anyone else having this problem and found a solution for it?
Would this be solved with having clutch peddals?

Thanks.

ps. I must say there is a huge improvement in wheeluse compared to forza 5. After trying out different setting of my senssitivity and angle im happyly surprised that
my wheel does work with forza 6.


Hold your clutch button (usually A) at the start and give the car full throttle. When the countdown ends, dump the clutch and you should go off just fine.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#81 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:53:38 AM(UTC)
So Christian what would your recommended settings be for the FFB on CSW V2? Right now it feels very overpowered and iI've been Dialing in multiple combinations of vibration and FFB Between the game in the wheel between the game and the wheel hub
Rank: Driver's License
#82 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2015 9:24:43 AM(UTC)
Have you tried the 'auto' settings on your CSW v2?
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#83 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2015 9:31:10 AM(UTC)
I did for FFB but there is no gear shift, road ffb when i set it to auto
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#84 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2015 11:42:50 AM(UTC)
Thank you everybody for the kind words. I'm very glad you found the post helpful. I'm working on Part II where I talk about force feedback and its nuances and answer some of your questions that I've seen most often. Stay tuned!
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#85 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2015 11:44:14 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: transfix Go to Quoted Post
I did for FFB but there is no gear shift, road ffb when i set it to auto


Very quick reply here, full explanation will be in the next FFB post. For the time being, if you don't want to set everything to Auto, I would recommend setting the power on the wheel (not in FM) to 20.
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#86 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2015 12:27:08 PM(UTC)
I've not found it helpful, to me the game with a wheel is unplayable, I just can't few what the car is going to do next. W

What are your plans to fix the wheel issues? Or will it be left as your main market is gamers on pads??

As others have said the ffb in Pcars is above and beyond what fm6 has to offer. Great graphics and eye candy are all good and well but I want the feeling in the wheel to take priority before eye candy.

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#87 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2015 2:33:56 PM(UTC)
Forza would gain so much if wheel dynamics and physics would improve. Compared to other sims (rFactor, AC, PC, LFS) Forza looks great, but lacks in accurate force reproduction.

It's hard to say with few words what exactly is wrong with the FFB wheel. Only when you drive other sims with same wheel, you can feel the problem. One thing that striked me most when testing and comparing FFB to rFactor is that in rFactor there is very distinctive force that typically pulls wheel towards the center. Just like real car, it naturally wants to straighten. Also vibrations from the road (depending on the motor's RPMs and bumps on the road) needs to be transfered through the wheel. Unfortunately that is nearly absent in Forza. I think that is why people all over the forum are reporting they feel disconnected from the road or that FFB feels unresponsive and weak.

The reason why people buy expensive wheels is to get good feel of what car is doing on the road, to get literally connected with the car...

PS: You can run rFactor DEMO for free on very low end PC. They really nailed wheel forces!


I look forward to additional clarifications on wheel settings that might help to improve overall FFB feel. I'm especially interested in "sensitivity" settings on TX since i can't find any in depth explanation what it actually does!

Thanks and see you on the track! :)
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#88 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2015 3:13:41 PM(UTC)
Alan from the Team VVV describes very well the problem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB_QGOX_h8Y

I know that we wheel users are only a minority but the large number of negative opinions about the current driving behavior should not be ignored.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#89 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2015 4:01:57 PM(UTC)
Hi everybody, I have a little problem with my Thrustmaster TX 458. I have the latest firmware and the latest drivers. When I played the demo of FM6 some days ago, I set the force feedback to 100 and I had no problems while playing. I also tried to set the force feedback to 60 and the game gave me no problem at all. I also noticed that in the "pre-race" menu there was the window "controller and wheel" where I could modify any setting I wanted and it was very comfortable. Now that I bought the game (Ultimate Edition), in the "pre-race" menu I can't find this window. Moreover, I set the force feedback to 100 and I notice very clearly that the force feedback is weaker, giving me the impression that it is more or less like the setting 60 in the demo. To confirm this, when I play the career and I receive an invitation to an exibition (for example VS Stig), in that race I feel the real force feedback set to 100; if I exit and I turn back to the career, the force feedback returns weaker although the setting is always to 100.
Is it a well-known bug or just mine?
Thank you very much!

Up

Edited by user Saturday, September 19, 2015 5:51:27 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
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#90 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:42:22 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: The Tolkien Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Blue028 Go to Quoted Post

Real cars are designed so the the front wheels always try to point in the direction the car is moving, if you watch some onboard drifting videos you will see they often let the wheel go as the front wheels are turning by them self to match the direction the car is moving. This is the main part of the FFB that doesn't work, if you try this in forza you will crash because the wheel doesn't respond to the car properly causing a disconnect between us and the car.


I was trying to put my finger on what doesn't feel right - but this is exactly it. It's disappointing that it hasn't been addressed.



Yes, I agree. No feel for center at all with my TX.

Please fix it.

Rank: Driver's Permit
#91 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2015 7:30:10 PM(UTC)
First, I want to thank Christian for taking his time to discuss force feedback in Forza 6. I look forward to part two of his explanations.

I want to offer some of my findings using a Fanatec ClubSport Wheel Base v2. My testing has been with road going sports coupes and sedans, cars I know well in real life. I obviously no nothing about how dedicated racing machines feel, so I'll let the experts hash that out. I agree with others who note that force feedback in Forza 6 feels a little off though. I strictly run at 900 degrees in-game, with wheel sensitivity set to Auto.

I first started using in-game force feedback scale at 100, with my wheel set to FFB: Auto. This gives me a very "clean" feeling as the wheel is incredibly smooth with a wide dynamic range of forces. But it doesn't feel perfectly realistic. It's clean and quick, but feels a little springy. If I keep a lighter grip on the wheel I can tell what the car is doing and let it correct itself a bit, and this allows me to maintain control. It's something I can learn to live with, but it's not naturally intuitive.

Now if I set my wheel to FFB: 100, and adjust the in-game force feedback scale down to the mid to low 20s, the steering feel is very different. Force feedback strength is similar to above, but the feeling of tire weight and steering dampening is much higher. It's a little more effort to steer, but it also feels more realistic. I find I'm more controlled and less likely to break traction unless I'm using extreme steering inputs. I can muscle it around more like I would a real car. The only thing I don't care for is the dampening adds a bit of "grit" to the feel of the car. This grittiness only seems to be an issue in Forza 6, and not in the PC sims I play.

The other thing I notice, which I believe has always been an issue in the Forza Motorsport series is that the game uses artificial centering spring effects. Even at a dead stop if you crank the wheel and let go, it will slowly return to center. Contrast that with PC games like Assetto Corsa where the steering wheel reacts specifically to forces placed on the tires' contact patches. Once you get rolling it's less of an issue, but I do get the feeling that force feedback in Forza 6 is not directly connected to the physics engine.

Edited by user Tuesday, September 15, 2015 7:35:12 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
#92 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2015 10:21:20 PM(UTC)
Hello,

So, long time FM player, but only recently got my first wheel, the non-ffb Thrustmaster 458 Spider. Obviously, my comments won't be directed at ffb issues. I was using my wheel with pCARS on XB1 for a bit this summer, which was having some functional issues post-release - then I went touring for the summer and gaming took a back seat. I started playing on FM6 last Friday via early release pre-order pkg. Anyway, the point is, I'm a bit green with the wheel but know what the game should feel like from a controller perspective, and I do after using it here and there while frustrated with wheel operations.

Thank you, Christian, your post was really informative.

My issue is with actually controlling the cars with some semblance of consistency - both with the pedals and the wheel. It seems a combination of gas and the wheel can get the cars doing some pretty radical swerving and easy loss of control. I've read enough here and discussed with Thrustmaster support about where sensitivity needs to be set along with FM setting for dead zones, etc. Things have got better the last couple tries, but small adjustments of the wheel and acceleration/braking are resulting in loss of control and spinning off track. Frustrating to say the least. Of course there are really great things about the game but the learn unfortunately curve has been severe for me so far.. Hoping the many comments people have made here get looked at and taken into consideration.

Regards,

Dave
Rank: Driver's Permit
#93 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2015 11:19:50 PM(UTC)
Hello everybody,
I have a huge problem with my V2 and hope someone can help someone here.

As can be seen already in lezten Video VVV, and hear it's me andauerend, I can not post in the correct curve, without which I lose my car completely. Tried different angles, no improvement.

Controller in hand, and bang it runs as if on rails.

Am grateful for any help.

greeting Michael


at the base itself

SEN at AUT
FFB 80

leave the rest in peace, now ABS is excluded.

In the game, the angle on 540th
Vibration strength at 38 with 40 or 36 there were again problems
Scaling at 55, and I still popular here, but very driveable. And Simulation Steering Please

Now it rules!!!!

Edited by user Wednesday, September 16, 2015 3:16:39 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#94 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2015 3:47:46 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Roadrunner M33P Go to Quoted Post
Alan from the Team VVV describes very well the problem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB_QGOX_h8Y

I know that we wheel users are only a minority but the large number of negative opinions about the current driving behavior should not be ignored.


Thanks for posting the video, this sums up the situation well in a fair and balanced way, exactly what I feel with the wheel. Understanding the racing technique, gently on the power as you unwind the lock through corners not working is a big help. The same cars with the control pad behave themselves so it's definitely a wheel issue.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#95 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2015 3:53:08 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: MBK72 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Roadrunner M33P Go to Quoted Post
Alan from the Team VVV describes very well the problem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB_QGOX_h8Y

I know that we wheel users are only a minority but the large number of negative opinions about the current driving behavior should not be ignored.


Thanks for posting the video, this sums up the situation well in a fair and balanced way, exactly what I feel with the wheel. Understanding the racing technique, gently on the power as you unwind the lock through corners not working is a big help. The same cars with the control pad behave themselves so it's definitely a wheel issue.


just check my settings!!

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#96 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2015 4:28:02 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: USBQNGLORD Go to Quoted Post
Great help thank you.....I have one question...how do you turn auto clutch on?


I know some one else already mentioned this... But you really should go out to Thrustmaster's support site and download the sheets for Auto-Clutch, and Sensitivity, and DOR settings from the wheel base itself. Visiting their site is also a good time to check your firmware.

I personally do not use Auto-clutch because of the side effects it has when trying to navigate menus.. It can get a bit weird because the wheel simulates a clutch button press ahead of the shift command to the Xbox... That creates a small latency too!

Just take a look so you have all the details.


Edited to add...

Also, if you own a Thrustmaster, you should know that there are setting available through the PC setup utility that you cannot set from wheel base or in game (dampers and springs, etc.) I'm not sure if these setting affect the game, but I feel as if they do. I've been playing around with them and I fee like I'm narrowing in on better performance out of my TX in FM6. As a note. Thrustmaster has plenty of warnings about connecting the wheel base to a PC before the drivers (and software) have been installed (wheel goes crazy and can be potentially damaging... Ask me how I know! --even blue screened my W10 laptop). Still, it is worth a look.

Edited by user Wednesday, September 16, 2015 7:14:19 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's License
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#97 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2015 6:19:03 AM(UTC)
Thanks for the detailed much appreciate insights and information Christian. Great to see this open post on wheel design / support.

I use the TX wheel with latest firmware plugged directly into one of the back usb ports of the xbox one. cockpit, sim steering, all assists off, 540 DOR, standard sensitivity. 5% dead zones both ends for Acc / Brake, no dead zones for steering. Auto Clutch used.

Unfortunately I am experiencing some FFB issues, where the game will behave as expected, but then after a random period of time will change behaviour of FFB entirely. Kurbs all off a sudden pull hard in direction of the wheels that touch them, changing gear causes a tug to the left and things such as over steer have a completely different FFB effect all of a sudden. When this occurs, I unplug the TX usb and plug back in again which then resets to normal FFB effects. The difference is noticeable and impacts driving ability in the game. As you can imagine, its hard to unplug during a race ;O(

Funnily enough, my TX stopped working Sat night. The TX starts the calibration but turns off before finishing, both with PC and Xbox One, not being recognised by the TX control panel on the PC. Thrustmaster are sending me a new USB cable solder on so will report back once fixed if this issue continues for me or not as it could just be a sign the TX was having issues or not.

Cheers
Matt

Edited by user Wednesday, September 16, 2015 6:28:03 AM(UTC)  | Reason: misspelling

Rank: Racing Permit
#98 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2015 7:14:36 AM(UTC)
Ok feel like I'm starting to get some where now so here's my setting's:

TX on wheel settings:

DOR: 360 (2 Flashes)
Sensitivity: Medium (2 Flashes)

In Game:



Also to assist from locking up I have done the old sponge behind brake pedal and it has drastically assisted in braking ability.

The vibration setting I feel gives the FFB inconsistent signals so dropping that means I can now run kerbs with the only issues being real feeling when you hit big ones or drop a wheel onto the edge.

My feeling is the vibration slider is the issue, 100% gives a way overpowered experience, even at 5% there's still a huge amount. Having lowered it to 5% though it acts as it should VIBRATION only, so in this sense the FFB is allowed to transmit the correct feel for slide etc.
Rank: Racing Permit
#99 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2015 7:35:50 AM(UTC)
I haven't figured it out yet. Today I came up with 900 DOR, TX sensitivity "3", and FFB 93 w/ rumble 38. I did notice that the sensitivity setting got changed a couple of times when I went into the options menu, also. The FFB seems to have more feel in simulation steering than normal, although it has it's own peculiarities. The in-game wheel only having 180 degrees of movement throws me off, too. It could use some improvements.

Edited by user Wednesday, September 16, 2015 7:37:46 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#100 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2015 8:49:43 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: VoodooUomo Go to Quoted Post
Thank you everybody for the kind words. I'm very glad you found the post helpful. I'm working on Part II where I talk about force feedback and its nuances and answer some of your questions that I've seen most often. Stay tuned!


Christian,
It is great to see you putting in this effort and for creating this as a sticky topic… Since it IS such a sticky one for many of us. I love what you have written so far, and look forward to the next part… keep them coming. The more we understand, the better off we will all be!

That said, I want to say I have been living, breathing, eating, sleeping FORZA 6 while "wheel driving" (TM TX/T3PA/TH8A) since the Demo released… My wife insists I need help, and she is probably correct! 

Having said that, I have been pouring over all the threads regarding wheel driving --- as I’m sure you have too! Hopefully, like me, you too are spending a lot of time playing (And testing) as well…

I sit on the fence with the wheel, but absolutely love the Forza franchise, and will never abandon my wheel or Forza... I love it too much, and so far, I only play Forza with it.

When it is right, which it is often enough (particularly in lower classes or in career modes), it is an amazing experience.

I say I sit on the fence, because I do not want to see Forza do anything drastic with the wheels but I too like other recognize that something isn't quite right. Mostly just too tight between stick or slide, which is exacerbated so easily by so many small things... I certainly don’t think dumbing down the wheels or physics of the game is the answer.

I realize from my own skill progression so far, that the wheel simply is very close to simulation and complaints about many issues can be more related to driving style or car setup (or wheel setup)… All of which I am personally slowly getting better at…

I know many of the complaints I read I can definitely attribute to poor setup (rear diff, brake balance/pressure, tire compound/width, etc.) or dare I say… less than perfect driving technique which I’m guilty of occasionally as well.

However, those things, I am willing to and WANT to have to wade through… otherwise, we would lose the truest form of simulation that FORZA 6 can offer with a wheel setup…

Experienced drivers know these things approach realism, and deal with them happily.

Still while playing online in Multiplayer, and Ford GT league (where all cars are mostly equal)… It is painfully obvious that the wheel will not compete (barring total perfection) with the controller drivers. They are obvious, by the ‘tick-tick-tack-tack’ steering (some worse than others), and they are all over the place (Not network lag --- just bad driving). They clearly have a much looser limit for loss of grip. If similar input were created from a wheel at the same speed, an uncontrolled slide would occur instantly. Even on initial acceleration, they seem to grip up and go much more quickly… I’ve even tried to return to using all assists (where allowable by restrictions)… Still I see them jerking their cars around while cornering, and they still stick and go… Online they slam into each other and stay (mostly) stuck to the payment! Any wheel Driver will tell you he’d likely loose in that contact! It just seems to be that we (wheel drivers) are kept on a much thinner knife’s edge!

I know Turn 10 doesn't want to turn a great game for hundreds of thousands of people using controllers, into an impossible game though… so setting the same, high quality simulation-like bar of ‘stick versus breakaway’ for tire grip on controllers is an unrealistic expectation of its own.

Still, Like Alan from the Team VVV describes very well where he drives the “Brabham BT24” and demonstrates (and says so eloquently) in his YouTube video at Brands Hatch, it seems that the line between “Push” and/or “Wildly loose” is way too narrow for the physics engine given the wheel controller input to the game. I know “Push" can be from too much steering input or too much acceleration off the apex at a given speed, or… can occur under braking… or just too much turn in... etc, etc... AND… Many of these things can also cause the back end to get "Loose" and come around as well… particularly on tracks like Brands Hatch where off camber turns and rapid elevation changes at or near the point where power is typically being applied… And, if you are already on such thin ice… and then hit a small bump… it’s over.

I do also love that I can feel every little crack, payment patch, and bump in many of the tracks… and those are clearly figured into the physics of tire adhesion --- as should be --- but again, my observation is that they have a way more profound effect on me when using the wheel vs the controller thereby making “The line” even thinner for wheel drivers.

While I was in the “Ford GT” league, I couldn’t help observing the Game Options section for the league. I noticed that there was a couple of setting for “handicapping grip”…

Could it be, that Wheel controllers are treated as advantageous??? And therefore handicapped for grip at some level always??? Or that handheld controllers are just given more leeway???

I wouldn’t expect that you or Turn 10 could/should actually give an exact answer to those questions, but IF that “IS” a part of the controls/physics for wheels --- which it certainly seems to be to me… --- Then maybe an adjustment is in order to “widen” (even just slightly) the line between push or spin…

Again, I can’t say enough how much I love Forza, and also how much I enjoyed your first installment of helpful advice!

Thanks!

Edited by user Wednesday, September 16, 2015 9:53:42 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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