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Rank: Driver's Permit
#26 Posted : Friday, May 1, 2015 5:25:04 AM(UTC)
Dsquared,

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll make some adjustments to the differential. I may have taken the tune down from my storefront, so if you are going by the numbers in my first post, I have made changes to the differential, lowering the decel to 40. The accel is at 25. But I'll play around with them some more.

That's interesting that you don't use any calculations. I've personally found the one I mentioned in my last post to be extremely helpful in giving me a good starting spring rate for most cars. Sometimes I don't have to make any adjustments at all to the values it gives me. I also tune based on feel, but I like to have a ballpark figure to start with, and go from there. It's also interesting to me that you keep your ARB's soft on all your cars. Most of my cars also have ARB numbers that don't go much higher than 20, but I have found occasions where tighetening up the roll bars on one end or both really helps with grip. Just yesterday I was working on my A-class '06 Exige and having a lot of trouble with grip. In addition to making some changes to the build and cranking up the rear aero, I found that tightening the ARB's almost to the max finally gave me a car that didn't lose traction on high-speed corners.


Originally Posted by: ECT Loco UBoG Go to Quoted Post
DAMPING.


Okay. Could you expand on that?

I was actually going to start a thread about damping's effect on performance/handling. I pretty much always opt for a high amount of rebound (between 10-12) along with low bump values (1-2.5). I understand the logic behind ths approach, and I haven't been able to find any explanation of damping that would help me understand why I might want to stray from it, or how a different damping setup would effect handling. Maybe someone with more tuning experience than me could chime in and explain why someone might want to avoid high rebound / low bump. Are there circumstances where lowering the rebound and/or increasing the bump would have a positive effect on handling?

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#27 Posted : Friday, May 1, 2015 6:35:27 AM(UTC)
Tuning calcs are a great tool for those new to tuning, or those who are still not sure what to "fix". Most of the better one's will give you a drivable tune right off. After you've been at it for while though, you will begin to see that the set ups are similar much of the time. Many of us who have been playing this game for some time have an initial set up to start with, and then go from there.

Suspension is probably the most important aspect of your tune. If you don't have that right, nothing else you do will really make it much better. In general I have found that the stock spring rates are usually pretty close. I only adjust them if I really don't like the way the car feels. In theory, you only need enough spring rate to keep the car off the track. The shocks will do the rest.

Many will tell you that low bumps - high rebound is the way to go, and this is not without merit. Many of the faster drivers use this type of set up. For the rest of us however, this makes the car "twitchy" as it is usually quite stiff. Low bump settings are recommended, as long as your not bottoming out the shocks, or losing traction under acceleration. Rebound is what keeps the tire in contact with the track. Too low and the shock will not expand quickly enough over a bump, too high and the tire may "bounce" over a bump, both times losing contact. Bring up your telemetry and go to the suspension screen. I like to keep the suspension near the middle of the bar as much as possible. This will vary from track to track, due to the surface smoothness.

I also tend to run my ARB's low, under 20. Try to keep them fairly close. I only use them to fine tune under/oversteer. Only adjust one end at a time.

Tuning is as much dependent on the driver as it is track conditions. If there was an optimal set up, every car on any given track would have the exact same set up. They don't. The best set up is totally useless if the driver is not comfortable with it and can't drive the car. Your tunes must also take into account how you drive the car.
EZT Motorsport: P r i d e | H o n o r | I n t e g r i t y - Not just a team, but a way of life!
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#28 Posted : Friday, May 1, 2015 8:30:48 AM(UTC)
EZT MAKO:

Thanks for the information. I started tuning using the FTC on my laptop and while some of the tune setups it gave me were great and I still use them to this day, others were worse than the initial setup. No matter how much I tried tweaking the calculator to get better results, there were some cars/builds for which it was completely useless. So I bought tunes to make up for the times the FTC didn't help. Then I started doing serious reading and research on tuning and finally began to understand how different elements affected car performance. I'm still very much a beginner when it comes to tuning, but I have had some successes here and there.

Anyways, thank-you for your input. It is much appreciated.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#29 Posted : Friday, May 1, 2015 9:36:59 AM(UTC)
I think the build is important as well. Finding just the right combo of speed/handling all while keeping the car in the class you want it in. for instance supercharger vs turbo vs cam and displacement. engine upgrade or build the stock one. i have a Ford GT that i literally own every upgrade
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#30 Posted : Friday, May 1, 2015 7:45:11 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: TOkidd Go to Quoted Post
Dsquared,

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll make some adjustments to the differential. I may have taken the tune down from my storefront, so if you are going by the numbers in my first post, I have made changes to the differential, lowering the decel to 40. The accel is at 25. But I'll play around with them some more.

That's interesting that you don't use any calculations. I've personally found the one I mentioned in my last post to be extremely helpful in giving me a good starting spring rate for most cars. Sometimes I don't have to make any adjustments at all to the values it gives me. I also tune based on feel, but I like to have a ballpark figure to start with, and go from there. It's also interesting to me that you keep your ARB's soft on all your cars. Most of my cars also have ARB numbers that don't go much higher than 20, but I have found occasions where tighetening up the roll bars on one end or both really helps with grip. Just yesterday I was working on my A-class '06 Exige and having a lot of trouble with grip. In addition to making some changes to the build and cranking up the rear aero, I found that tightening the ARB's almost to the max finally gave me a car that didn't lose traction on high-speed corners.


Originally Posted by: ECT Loco UBoG Go to Quoted Post
DAMPING.


Okay. Could you expand on that?

I was actually going to start a thread about damping's effect on performance/handling. I pretty much always opt for a high amount of rebound (between 10-12) along with low bump values (1-2.5). I understand the logic behind ths approach, and I haven't been able to find any explanation of damping that would help me understand why I might want to stray from it, or how a different damping setup would effect handling. Maybe someone with more tuning experience than me could chime in and explain why someone might want to avoid high rebound / low bump. Are there circumstances where lowering the rebound and/or increasing the bump would have a positive effect on handling?



I guess i've never really thought about it. Ive never spoken to anyone using tuning calculators or anything. Everyone I speak to in the game tunes on feel and lap times. After a certain amount of time spent tuning you get to know what works and what doesn't so a calculator wouldn't help. I don't think I need one.




Rank: A-Class Racing License
#31 Posted : Friday, May 1, 2015 11:49:25 PM(UTC)
Have you tried increasing front tire width and/or decreasing rear tire width? the build is very important, also what roll cage do you use? i'll have to try your tune next time i'm on forza.
- East Coast Tuning -
Rank: Driver's Permit
#32 Posted : Saturday, May 2, 2015 6:47:39 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: o2R Dsquared 07 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TOkidd Go to Quoted Post
Dsquared,

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll make some adjustments to the differential. I may have taken the tune down from my storefront, so if you are going by the numbers in my first post, I have made changes to the differential, lowering the decel to 40. The accel is at 25. But I'll play around with them some more.

That's interesting that you don't use any calculations. I've personally found the one I mentioned in my last post to be extremely helpful in giving me a good starting spring rate for most cars. Sometimes I don't have to make any adjustments at all to the values it gives me. I also tune based on feel, but I like to have a ballpark figure to start with, and go from there. It's also interesting to me that you keep your ARB's soft on all your cars. Most of my cars also have ARB numbers that don't go much higher than 20, but I have found occasions where tighetening up the roll bars on one end or both really helps with grip. Just yesterday I was working on my A-class '06 Exige and having a lot of trouble with grip. In addition to making some changes to the build and cranking up the rear aero, I found that tightening the ARB's almost to the max finally gave me a car that didn't lose traction on high-speed corners.


Originally Posted by: ECT Loco UBoG Go to Quoted Post
DAMPING.


Okay. Could you expand on that?

I was actually going to start a thread about damping's effect on performance/handling. I pretty much always opt for a high amount of rebound (between 10-12) along with low bump values (1-2.5). I understand the logic behind ths approach, and I haven't been able to find any explanation of damping that would help me understand why I might want to stray from it, or how a different damping setup would effect handling. Maybe someone with more tuning experience than me could chime in and explain why someone might want to avoid high rebound / low bump. Are there circumstances where lowering the rebound and/or increasing the bump would have a positive effect on handling?



I guess i've never really thought about it. Ive never spoken to anyone using tuning calculators or anything. Everyone I speak to in the game tunes on feel and lap times. After a certain amount of time spent tuning you get to know what works and what doesn't so a calculator wouldn't help. I don't think I need one.







I think you might have misunderstood me. I don't use a tuning calculator. I used to use the official Forza Tuning Calculator, but only consult it now from time-to-time if I'm stuck on a tune and want to see what kind of numbers it gives me.

What I use is a simple caluclation that takes into consideration the weight of the car and its distribution to arrive at initial front and rear spring numbers. I then try to approximate these numbers in the ARB's (for example, if the spring numbers my initial calculation gives me are 500 front and 600 rear, and the max spring for the car was 1000, I would start with ARB numbers of 20 front and 24 rear. Now the ARB numbers and spring numbers would be proportionate to each other. I find that this approach often gives me a good starting place once things like camber, tire pressure, damping, aero, and differential have been set to numbers that are a decent initial match for all the various aspects of the car and build. From here, I can usually dirve the car pretty well.

However, this is when feel comes into play for me, and I begin to experiment primarily with spring and ARB numbers to improve handling, provided that things like differential and aero are locked in. I will try stiffening or softening springs and see what the effect is; I will try stiffening one in proportion to another. I also use my bracketing technique with the ARB's to get a sense of whether or not the car likes to have lots of body roll or not so much. I rarely use very stiff ARB's, but sometimes I find that they have gotten cars that were all over the place in corners to tighten up.

I've been able to find lots of information about how tuning springs and ARB can affect handling. What has been much more difficult to find is information on how damping adjustments affect handling. For example, in what situation (idf any) would you want to use lower rebound numbers — let's say, lower than 7, just as a balllpark figure? Conversely, is it ever advisable to have high bumb numbers — let's say 5 or 6 and higher? EZT MAKO has provided some helpful information on damping, but I'm hoping other veteran posters will have more to add or even a link to another thread or resource where damping's affect on handling is explained in great detail. I understand the basics of why you generally want fairly high rebound and low bumb numbers, but I'm interested to know when, if ever, one should stray from this rule and what the effects on handling/performance are.

As always, thanks to everyone for theirmhelp and patience, I look forward to reading future responses.

Peace

TOkidd
Rank: Racing Permit
#33 Posted : Thursday, May 7, 2015 2:58:57 AM(UTC)
I don't like calculators. The ones I've seen don't factor in tire size, which is huge. And weight distribution isn't enough. For example the 911 and Cayman essentially have the same weight distribution. But obviously they handle very differently. The Cayman is more neutral despite having a little more weight out back (supposedly?). So I definitely prefer tuning by feel. I try and get the front sorted to minimize understeer, and then I get the back as stiff as I can without the car being totally uncontrollable. So the rear end of my 911s are stiffer than those of my Cayman/other mid engine cars.

Diablo has a lot of weight out back and huge 345s fully tuned IIRC. You can basically tune it like a 911.... just sort out the front so it doesn't push and then stiffen the hell out of the rear. It won't have crazy high cornering speeds but it will brake well and have damn near 4WD drive out of corners.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#34 Posted : Thursday, May 7, 2015 6:12:19 AM(UTC)
The Forza Tuning Calculator by Slavemonkey absolutely DOES factor in tire size, as well as weight distribution, overall weight, engine placement, HP and torque, and several other characteristics. The spreadsheet uses complex real world tuning formulas which have been adjusted to fit Forza's physics when necessary. Slave and his team have tested and modified this calculator over a period of years, and have had some of the best drivers in Forza test and verify the accuracy of the tunes. It is by far, in my humble opinion, the best calc out there. It nearly always will give you a very drivable base tune. Will it return a perfect tune every time? Of course not, nothing will. Even the pro's get it wrong sometimes. Occasionally, cars just don't want to behave.

Two factors to keep in mind, which I mentioned previously. It is a video game in the end, so after a while you will recognize that most cars have similar set ups, at least in the same class. Also, the tune is dependent on the driver. In the racing world, loose is fast, and many of the faster drivers have this type of set up. I personally like a bit more grip. Am I sacrificing lap times? Probably. But I'm faster in a car I'm comfortable with than one I'm not.
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#35 Posted : Thursday, May 7, 2015 2:20:23 PM(UTC)
I haven't used his calculator. Link?

In real racing drivers like stability. Some may like a looser setup but instability or huge idiosyncracies generate fatigue and take away concentration from the task of racing. Some may like things looser to match their driving style but overall stability and efficiency of power transmission (i.e. no Chris Harris style power oversteer stuff) wins races.

Even with drifting... you want the tail to get out, but only when and how you want it to get out. If the car is loose it's unpredictable and by extension hard to drift competitively. Flying down Fujimi Kaido the last thing I want is a loose car.

Edited by user Thursday, May 7, 2015 2:22:51 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#36 Posted : Friday, May 8, 2015 6:28:41 AM(UTC)
Cool, here is the site for the FTC. http://forzatuninglabs.com/forum/index.php

Your right of course, traction and stability are very important to race drivers. There are those who like a loose set up though, especially dirt racers. This is why Tony Stewart and the Busch brothers are famous for driving with the "right rear".

That comment actually stems from hearing it some 100 times from my hotlapper friends and teammates. Since they were generally faster than me, I couldn't argue!

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#37 Posted : Saturday, May 9, 2015 6:08:55 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EZT MAKO 6669 Go to Quoted Post
Cool, here is the site for the FTC. http://forzatuninglabs.com/forum/index.php

Your right of course, traction and stability are very important to race drivers. There are those who like a loose set up though, especially dirt racers. This is why Tony Stewart and the Busch brothers are famous for driving with the "right rear".

That comment actually stems from hearing it some 100 times from my hotlapper friends and teammates. Since they were generally faster than me, I couldn't argue!



The rabbit hole does indeed go deep! Thanks a ton for this link!
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#38 Posted : Sunday, May 10, 2015 4:16:26 AM(UTC)
No problem bud! One of the things I especially like about this calc is the ability to set it up for your particular likes. By using the advanced settings you can get a tune even closer to what you want. Less time in the garage and more on the track, if you know what I mean
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#39 Posted : Wednesday, May 13, 2015 7:06:28 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Cool The Kid Go to Quoted Post
I haven't used his calculator. Link?

In real racing drivers like stability. Some may like a looser setup but instability or huge idiosyncracies generate fatigue and take away concentration from the task of racing. Some may like things looser to match their driving style but overall stability and efficiency of power transmission (i.e. no Chris Harris style power oversteer stuff) wins races.

Even with drifting... you want the tail to get out, but only when and how you want it to get out. If the car is loose it's unpredictable and by extension hard to drift competitively. Flying down Fujimi Kaido the last thing I want is a loose car.


Im quite the opposite! I want a loose car especially on a track like fuji. If you have a very stiff (understeery car) you are going to be slowing down and taking a long time to get the car around the tight bends. Sure it is going to require more throttle control and focus to keep the car in check around the monstrous mountain course but it will be much more rewarding (lap times) when you get it right.

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#40 Posted : Saturday, July 4, 2015 3:12:32 PM(UTC)
I thrive on stability. I'm not good enough to capitalize on instability, outside of a little tail out action on trail braking. I am loving FTC though. Especially with the advanced features that let you tweak various values.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#41 Posted : Tuesday, July 7, 2015 7:32:20 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Cool The Kid Go to Quoted Post
I thrive on stability. I'm not good enough to capitalize on instability, outside of a little tail out action on trail braking. I am loving FTC though. Especially with the advanced features that let you tweak various values.


I use the FTC on every car that I build or builds that friends give me.

The FTC gives you what you put in. So if your build is not right for a car, the FTC tune will not work too great.

Good luck in Forza racing.

Edited by user Tuesday, July 7, 2015 7:33:27 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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