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 Rank: C-Class Racing License  3 users liked this post. #2 Posted : Tuesday, November 18, 2014 4:25:43 PM(UTC) You did a great job explaining yourself Ruddy.Awesome post.Let me add a bunch of gobbily stuff that I learned while researching the gearing aspect of cars.Bunch of math:Wheel stuff (Important):Tire Diameter = Rim Diameter + ( ( Section Width * ( Aspect Ratio * 2 ) ) / 25.4 )Width in inches = Section Width / 25.4Section Height in inches = Width in inches * Aspect Ratio (%)Motion:1 Miles / Hour / Sec. into Feet / Sec. / Sec. = 1.466666667Gravity (G)= 32.174AccelerationGs = ( ( 60 * 1.466666667) / "Forza 0-60 s" ) / 32.174Gear Stuff:Final Drive (differential) = ( RedlineRPM * Tire Diameter ) / ( "Forza Top Speed" * 336 )First GEAR = ( ("AccelerationGs" * Car_Weight ) * ( ( DriveTireDiameter * 0.5 ) * 12 ) ) / ( "Forza Torque" * FinalDrive )NEW GEAR = Desired After Shift RPM * Old Gear / Shift RPMKeep doing this to get the next gear.Optional. ( best mathmatical drive given Final Drive formula )LAST GEAR = ( ( ( ( ( 120 * PI() * ( DriveTireDiameter * 0.5 ) * Redline ) / "Forza Top Speed" ) / FinalDrive ) / 12 ) / 5280 ) ) Also a search for "drive train" on google or wikipedia is good. Or YouTube: "Guns Cars and Digits" he has a good video on gears in forza.I spent weeks reading and learning.Your post is very good.Edited by user Wednesday, November 19, 2014 8:31:09 AM(UTC)  | Reason: fixes My completely open source tunes for: Forza Motorsport 5 & Forza Horizon 2.
 Rank: Racing Legend #3 Posted : Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:00:33 PM(UTC) Ruddy how often do you get to max out your 6th gear on the track?I suspect it is usually too long. I blame the ants.
 Rank: Racing Permit #4 Posted : Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:52:43 PM(UTC) SpotTheKitty, cheers for that I'll look in to it a bit more when im home, love me some maths.SatNiteEduardo, In a race? not very often unless they hit the highways, but when im just in freeroam hammering down the open road I hit it all the time, or near enough, that is to say if the car tops out at 173 I may reach 170 and itll be struggling to get those last few miles. I do tend to set them a bit long but still within an achievable range. I HATE when my car tops out and you hear the engine revving, dont know why but it just infuriates me.Why'd you ask anyhow? something in my post obviously but just wondering what.
 Rank: Racing Legend #5 Posted : Tuesday, November 18, 2014 9:56:50 PM(UTC) Originally Posted by: Ruddy88 SpotTheKitty, cheers for that I'll look in to it a bit more when im home, love me some maths.SatNiteEduardo, In a race? not very often unless they hit the highways, but when im just in freeroam hammering down the open road I hit it all the time, or near enough, that is to say if the car tops out at 173 I may reach 170 and itll be struggling to get those last few miles. I do tend to set them a bit long but still within an achievable range. I HATE when my car tops out and you hear the engine revving, dont know why but it just infuriates me.Why'd you ask anyhow? something in my post obviously but just wondering what.A few things.Early in your post you mention that you adjust it so final drive hits the end of the graph. I know you say you come back later but your method later really does not change it much.In short you are really tuning your gears for the open road, for free roam, for the end of the Mulsanne straight. That is fine as long as those are the activities you are tuning for.But for races and hotlapping you rarely will get much use from your 6th gear. That may not be a problem, however you have spent a fair bit of PI to get that 6th gear - I would want it to improve my times if I have spent PI on it. Because of that I actually very rarely get the race transmission, but if I do I don't waste any gears. I blame the ants.
 Rank: C-Class Racing License #7 Posted : Wednesday, November 19, 2014 6:10:49 AM(UTC) Race transmission is a complete waste of PI in 90% of cars. The same can be said for most drivetrain swaps given that they come equipped with a 6 speed. Stock or street transmission + more power is the way to go. In certain cases like some older muscle cars a sport transmission can be beneficial to adjust the final drive and prevent the car from rev banging.Originally Posted by: Spot The Kitty Don't forget the weight reduction that comes with transmission upgrade.On a 2010 Abarath 500 Esseesse that is 3 lbs from sport to race. (-3 lbs = +1 HP) at the expense of 2 PI. Also faster shift time. Yes, in rare instances the PI cost of a race transmission is negligible. For most cars it eats up 5, 10, sometimes 15 PI. Also lol @ 3 lbs weight reduction.And all that math nonsense is a bit overkill considering this is Horizon 2 and not Assetto Corsa.
 Rank: C-Class Racing License #9 Posted : Wednesday, November 19, 2014 6:50:18 AM(UTC) Good points. ( and yes lol at my weight reduction, :) Some like to race others like to math.)What Ruddy has done here has written something that a brand new tuner can wrap their head around and it might help them on to more advanced tuning techniques down the road.My hat is off to Ruddy for that. I wish I had his write-up when I started.Also,Default gears for 6 speed is always if you don't of can't change them:2.891.991.491.160.940.78Default for 8 speed:4.703.132.101.671.281.000.840.67If you like those, super!Edited by user Wednesday, November 19, 2014 7:01:04 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified My completely open source tunes for: Forza Motorsport 5 & Forza Horizon 2.
 Rank: A-Class Racing License #10 Posted : Wednesday, November 19, 2014 7:36:41 AM(UTC) its not that people like the default gears, its that the race transmission is not required most of the time, so what the race gearbox is doesnt matter. A cars stock 4,5, or 6 speed is often well enough, equip it to sport so the final drive can be adjusted and boom none of the gear tuning even mattered, just adjust it so u are getting near end of final gear on longest straight, adjust a little if needed so you are not shifting a few hundred feet before ur breaking points on a corner. boom done. PTG Home Race Team Tester Tuner
 Rank: X-Class Racing License #11 Posted : Wednesday, November 19, 2014 7:55:58 AM(UTC) I think that Ruddy knows that other upgrades may be more beneficial than the race transmission, but that wasn't really the point of the thread. His point is a little beyond that; he is saying, "O.K. you've added a race transmission. Now what? What do you do if you don't like the gearing the way it is?"As SatNiteEduardo mentioned way up there somewhere about 6th gear - on a couple cars in FH2 where for whatever reason I have gone to add the race transmission and not been in S2 or X class, I have actually found myself almost tuning 6th gear out and making it, in essence, a 5 speed (5th and 6th gear are both there but identical). I do admit I'm not the best and most knowledgeable when it comes to tuning the gears and I am still attempting to learn. From that regard, I appreciate this thread as it has given some insight and ideas I can look at and take from. Thank you.
 Rank: A-Class Racing License #12 Posted : Wednesday, November 19, 2014 4:27:49 PM(UTC) This thread is a great read. Thanks all.This is going to be one of my reference threads as there are some great ideas and philosophies in here. Click to watch Sim and Realword Driving Videos PC & XB1 Next Level Racing GT Ultimate v2 Fanatec Clubsport: Wheelbase v2.5 | Inverted Pedals v3 | SQ Shifter v1.5 | Universal Hub for XB1
 Rank: S-Class Racing License #13 Posted : Wednesday, November 19, 2014 7:08:55 PM(UTC) Great read OP. Too much science for me though, and I think it's easy to overthink these things. On the rare occasions I have to tune a race box I just look to keep the acceleration as seamless and consistent as possible, and the car tractable and circuit friendly. If it's not still pulling at the end of the longest straight, if your gears are overspaced (lazy getting back into the peak power band) or underspaced (you're having to shift too often), if you are having to use too high or too low gears for some corners, if your exit gear shifts are occurring too soon after apexing, or worse, while you are stil mid-corner, you need to make an adjustment or compromise somewhere. Other than that, if the build and engine are adequate, you probably aren't going to find much time through tuning gears. Better to tip the PI into the engine bay or tyres.Edited by user Wednesday, November 19, 2014 7:09:26 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
 Rank: Racing Legend #14 Posted : Wednesday, November 19, 2014 7:26:32 PM(UTC) There was a thread I think on the FM5 forums but I can't remember how long ago that discussed ideal shifting points.One theory (or is it fact?) put forward was that you need to maximise the average hp across the used rev range.This occurs when changing up when the hp before and after the gear change are the same. If I was to tune a race gearbox to help with this I believe the blue line on the graph in the OP should be flat between 2nd and 6th gear and each gear would be parallel lines.On the odd occasion when I use race gearboxes that is how I tune them. I blame the ants.
 Rank: D-Class Racing License #15 Posted : Wednesday, November 19, 2014 9:03:26 PM(UTC) Isn't there an app that does all the maths for you?
 Rank: C-Class Racing License #16 Posted : Wednesday, November 19, 2014 9:34:46 PM(UTC) I use the race transmission to make up for my full aero.Let me example:No Tuning, Stock transmission, Aero Front 75; Rear: 135Acceleration0 - 60 MPH:   3.414 S0 - 100 MPH: 6.156 STop Speed:    219.6 MPH (212.6 MPH if 100/200 Aero)Lateral G's60 MPH:   1.10 G120 MPH: 1.27 GRace Transmission, Kitty Tuned, Aero Front: 100; Rear: 200Acceleration0 - 60 MPH:    3.351 S0 - 100 MPH:  6.057 STop Speed:     216.8 MPHLateral G's60 MPH:      1.11 G120 MPH:    1.31 G216.8 MPH: 1.71 GSo that is another good reason to go with a race transmission. But that is just me :)Edited by user Wednesday, November 19, 2014 9:39:06 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified My completely open source tunes for: Forza Motorsport 5 & Forza Horizon 2.
 Rank: R-Class Racing License #17 Posted : Wednesday, November 19, 2014 10:09:37 PM(UTC) Forza 5 1st gear- set to minimize wheelspin at launch.3rd gear- keep it wider than 2nd and 4th spaced out a bit more than those two. Most cornering is done in third helps keep you from shifting up then down for a corner. 6th gear set so that it is just about at redline at the end of the tracks longest straight. 97 Civic in C class around Rd. Atl club will run very tightly spaced gearing with a final drive set to the left or for speed. Lotus and the like usually set the final drive to accel all the way right then run the gears wide to make use of the torque. Speed tunes usually set final drive towards speed and wider gearing to help control wheelspin.787b is tuned to run a 4 speed. Just stop. Just sayin.
 Rank: X-Class Racing License #18 Posted : Wednesday, November 19, 2014 10:17:27 PM(UTC) Originally Posted by: SatNiteEduardo There was a thread I think on the FM5 forums but I can't remember how long ago that discussed ideal shifting points.One theory (or is it fact?) put forward was that you need to maximise the average hp across the used rev range.This occurs when changing up when the hp before and after the gear change are the same. If I was to tune a race gearbox to help with this I believe the blue line on the graph in the OP should be flat between 2nd and 6th gear and each gear would be parallel lines.On the odd occasion when I use race gearboxes that is how I tune them.I get the part about the gears being parallel lines to each other, but I'm not sure what yo mean about the blue line in the OP being flat. Do you mean straight but still with an increasing slope or do you really mean flat as in no slope, horizontal?
 Rank: Racing Legend #19 Posted : Wednesday, November 19, 2014 10:47:41 PM(UTC) Originally Posted by: PPiDrive I get the part about the gears being parallel lines to each other, but I'm not sure what yo mean about the blue line in the OP being flat. Do you mean straight but still with an increasing slope or do you really mean flat as in no slope, horizontal?Horizontal.The ideal shift point is the ideal shift point for all gears. If that happens to be shift at 6,000rpm and catch at 4,500rpm then that is the ideal shift point for every gear change. I blame the ants.
 Rank: Racing Legend #20 Posted : Wednesday, November 19, 2014 10:54:27 PM(UTC) Originally Posted by: Spot The Kitty I use the race transmission to make up for my full aero.Let me example:No Tuning, Stock transmission, Aero Front 75; Rear: 135Acceleration0 - 60 MPH:   3.414 S0 - 100 MPH: 6.156 STop Speed:    219.6 MPH (212.6 MPH if 100/200 Aero)Lateral G's60 MPH:   1.10 G120 MPH: 1.27 GRace Transmission, Kitty Tuned, Aero Front: 100; Rear: 200Acceleration0 - 60 MPH:    3.351 S0 - 100 MPH:  6.057 STop Speed:     216.8 MPHLateral G's60 MPH:      1.11 G120 MPH:    1.31 G216.8 MPH: 1.71 GSo that is another good reason to go with a race transmission. But that is just me :)My approach to your conundrum would be use street transmission and add more horses. With the higher hp you get you should get a higher top speed and probably both in the stat screen and on track.Adjustable gears can only go so far if you don't have enough horses.There is only one correct science to tuning in my opinion and that science is the science of lap times.Lap times seem better with street tranmission + engine upgrades (in most cases) compared to race transmission. As always test various options but people have already done a lot of the testing for you and they are setting quick times. I blame the ants.
 Rank: S-Class Racing License #21 Posted : Thursday, November 20, 2014 4:38:49 AM(UTC) This is a very valuable thread and is written very well. This part of tuning is very tricky and very hard to get people to explain. However this is probably the best thread on this subject. AKA: SP01LED JAM1E. Twitter = @PTG_Jamie
 Rank: A-Class Racing License #22 Posted : Thursday, November 20, 2014 6:17:05 AM(UTC) Originally Posted by: Spot The Kitty I use the race transmission to make up for my full aero.Let me example:No Tuning, Stock transmission, Aero Front 75; Rear: 135Acceleration0 - 60 MPH:   3.414 S0 - 100 MPH: 6.156 STop Speed:    219.6 MPH (212.6 MPH if 100/200 Aero)Lateral G's60 MPH:   1.10 G120 MPH: 1.27 GRace Transmission, Kitty Tuned, Aero Front: 100; Rear: 200Acceleration0 - 60 MPH:    3.351 S0 - 100 MPH:  6.057 STop Speed:     216.8 MPHLateral G's60 MPH:      1.11 G120 MPH:    1.31 G216.8 MPH: 1.71 GSo that is another good reason to go with a race transmission. But that is just me :)Kitty you are actually arguing the point me and satnight are making. all you are getting out of the tune is 4.2 miles per hour in your top speed ranking by adding a race transmission. You 0-60 and 0-100 times arent much different. You also have to remember to throw those numbers out the window because they are basically useless. If the game doesnt shift at the optimal shift point then you are losing a lot from the race gear box that can be picked up by a person, and the game DOES NOT choose optimal shift points. However, how much pi was used to go from the stock transmission on this car to the race transmission? I can almost guarantee without putting in the race trans and without tuning gearing you could put some other power component on, reach the same top speed or higher and have never adjusted anything. You are comparing apples to oranges... Because you are now comparing cars with different pi's. Yes you are comparing the same car, but u are comparing with modded vs stock. PTG Home Race Team Tester Tuner
 Rank: On the Podium  1 user liked this post. #23 Posted : Thursday, November 20, 2014 6:26:06 AM(UTC) Originally Posted by: Spot The Kitty I use the race transmission to make up for my full aero.Let me example:No Tuning, Stock transmission, Aero Front 75; Rear: 135Acceleration0 - 60 MPH:   3.414 S0 - 100 MPH: 6.156 STop Speed:    219.6 MPH (212.6 MPH if 100/200 Aero)Lateral G's60 MPH:   1.10 G120 MPH: 1.27 GRace Transmission, Kitty Tuned, Aero Front: 100; Rear: 200Acceleration0 - 60 MPH:    3.351 S0 - 100 MPH:  6.057 STop Speed:     216.8 MPHLateral G's60 MPH:      1.11 G120 MPH:    1.31 G216.8 MPH: 1.71 GSo that is another good reason to go with a race transmission. But that is just me :)1. You are never going to hit 219 MPH.....pointless2. The benchmarks aren't worth a flip and are wrong.
 Rank: C-Class Racing License #24 Posted : Thursday, November 20, 2014 6:49:27 AM(UTC) Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Because you are now comparing cars with different pi's. Yes you are comparing the same car, but u are comparing with modded vs stock. Actually I had Stock and Race as a choices, because of a drive train swap.The difference between Stock and Race was 1 PI.Those numbers came from untuned Race transmission and tuned Race transmission. An untuned Race transmission and the Stock transmission both have 6 gears and we all know the default values for those gear ratios. So I was trying to compare Apples to Apples as best I could. Yes, it is anal, yes it is time consuming, yes the numbers mean nothing until you race. But, I like the maths, I like the numbers, I the immersion of being able to fine tune the car or at least fake myself out, so I feel like I'm out there part of a race team.Also I'm brain damaged if you haven't surmised by now. I don't mind, I don't bring it up for sympathy, I will never drive as well as 99.9% of you. I can not remember a full track no matter how many times I races it. So, I take on the role of the grease kitty, and it is fun. I try to tune cars that I can drive. If I can drive it, I know that 90% ( the casual players ) can drive it. It is a game after all. We all have fun in different ways. I'm grateful I've been able to learn something I've never known before and experience as best I could without actually doing it for real. It is pretty cool.Plus you all are really awesome nice people and I feel part of a community. I think it has been a good discussion, and sometimes someone needs to play devils advocate to see things from all angles. Thanks for taking me on and helping me in the past. I look forward to more discussions and also smashing into your drivatars :)Edited by user Thursday, November 20, 2014 7:08:40 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified My completely open source tunes for: Forza Motorsport 5 & Forza Horizon 2.
 Rank: A-Class Racing License #25 Posted : Thursday, November 20, 2014 8:13:54 AM(UTC) Makes a bit more sense. This is one of the instances it may be worth it to add a race box, as all you are doing is adding tunability and removing a small amount of weight for 1 pi. Most instances it cost much more than that. This is not typical and more often then not the cost of the race gearbox is much more expensive than that in pi cost. You found the anomaly not the norm. However, as worm was saying, those statistics on the left should be ignored. I use none of that or the telemetry to tune and have turned out top 20 or better tunes only by feel. PTG Home Race Team Tester Tuner
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