Rank: Driver's Permit
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#1 Posted : Wednesday, February 27, 2019 12:37:02 PM(UTC)
I'm wondering when we might be likely to see an update for the information and telemetry we can pull from the game.

I'm particularly interested in tyre wear, damage and player position/status(on track or in pits).

I would really like the ability to overlay race standings, lap times for a whole multiplayer lobby, distance to the next car and a track map to a tablet or another display.

Cheers

FRCA GRASSY
Rank: Racing Permit
#2 Posted : Wednesday, February 27, 2019 12:53:48 PM(UTC)
I've been using the data out to build graphics covering various aspects of the tune. Additional info I'd like to see in the data is a field stating what track/ribbon is in use.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#3 Posted : Wednesday, February 27, 2019 2:14:39 PM(UTC)
Can somebody explain to me what that stuff is? I see it in the HUD options I believe and never know what its for.
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#4 Posted : Wednesday, February 27, 2019 7:35:36 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: sTReetBurner09 Go to Quoted Post
Can somebody explain to me what that stuff is? I see it in the HUD options I believe and never know what its for.


If you turn Data Out On in the HUD, the Xbox sends a datastream, like race telemetry, in packed UDP format to the IP address you specify. A device listening on that IP can be programmed to unpack the datastream and either use it to drive a simulator, or just create a logfile for analysis. I do analysis on the logfile and get results like the image below, which is a scatterplot of front suspension movement over a number of laps. Useful for tuning.

Edited by user Wednesday, February 27, 2019 7:36:22 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#5 Posted : Saturday, March 2, 2019 3:43:29 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Gryphon962 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: sTReetBurner09 Go to Quoted Post
Can somebody explain to me what that stuff is? I see it in the HUD options I believe and never know what its for.


If you turn Data Out On in the HUD, the Xbox sends a datastream, like race telemetry, in packed UDP format to the IP address you specify. A device listening on that IP can be programmed to unpack the datastream and either use it to drive a simulator, or just create a logfile for analysis. I do analysis on the logfile and get results like the image below, which is a scatterplot of front suspension movement over a number of laps. Useful for tuning.



Is it possible to set up a graph like this to tune dampers?
http://farnorthracing.co..._Suspension_Velocity.jpg
I'm somewhat interested in trying to tune dampers like this.
"And means that the histograms front/rear should be of a similar shape.

Now you have a use for the adjuster knobs! Do a run, tweak the adjuster, do another run, and keep going until you have symmetrical, identical histograms on both wheels of the same axle, and similar shapes front to rear. What you wind up with are shocks that provide slightly different force curves, but identical reaction speeds - and you have optimized your shocks.

MOTeC's software has a wizard set up to do just this - and every major race team I know of uses this technique to tune shocks. Done on the track, done on a shaker rig... this is how it is done. And it is how I did it too."

Edited by user Saturday, March 2, 2019 3:48:19 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#6 Posted : Saturday, March 2, 2019 11:37:24 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post


I'm somewhat interested in trying to tune dampers like this.
"And means that the histograms front/rear should be of a similar shape. Now you have a use for the adjuster knobs! Do a run, tweak the adjuster, do another run, and keep going until you have symmetrical, identical histograms on both wheels of the same axle, and similar shapes front to rear. What you wind up with are shocks that provide slightly different force curves, but identical reaction speeds - and you have optimized your shocks. MOTeC's software has a wizard set up to do just this - and every major race team I know of uses this technique to tune shocks. Done on the track, done on a shaker rig... this is how it is done. And it is how I did it too."


Here is a histogram view of front vs rear suspension travel over multiple laps. This helps me tune springrate and ride height. For damper tuning you would need to examine the movement over time like in the graph you linked, and gain experience over what looked good and what didnt. I tried to do a frequency analysis of plots like that but I couldnt interpret the results.

So, for dampers, I set rebound to about 1% of the respective springrate, and bump to 75% of that. Exception: rear rebound and bump should always be less then front rebound or bump. Doing it that way seems to work. However, if anyone has insights into how to interpret the suspension travel data for damper tuning I'm all ears.

histogram

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#7 Posted : Saturday, March 2, 2019 1:16:24 PM(UTC)
That's not the right type of graph for dampers. Look again at the link I shared. Can you plot the data like that?

Spring rate and ride height vary per suspension geometry, downforce, track, and driver preference. Dampers are less subjective.

Edited by user Saturday, March 2, 2019 1:20:44 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#8 Posted : Saturday, March 2, 2019 1:59:06 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
That's not the right type of graph for dampers. Look again at the link I shared. Can you plot the data like that?

Spring rate and ride height vary per suspension geometry, downforce, track, and driver preference. Dampers are less subjective.


I went into the website and found the article - I didnt realize that the graph you posted was suspension velocity which isnt in the data out parameters, so I will need to figure out how to calculate it and then, yes, I will be able to plot the results.

Perhaps we should take this discussion to the Tuning Garage.

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#9 Posted : Saturday, March 2, 2019 2:29:18 PM(UTC)
True true I didn't consider that step. It should be in data out.
Rank: Racing Permit
#10 Posted : Saturday, March 2, 2019 3:33:16 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
True true I didn't consider that step. It should be in data out.


Here is a rough draft of the equivalent of that shock velocity vs time plot you posted, and also a histogram. Sure enough, most of the action is within 3"/second

hist

time

Edited by user Saturday, March 2, 2019 3:37:05 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#11 Posted : Saturday, March 2, 2019 5:42:29 PM(UTC)
Wow.. that's awesome. Can you help me set that up on my PC? What programs are you using?
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#12 Posted : Saturday, March 2, 2019 6:17:19 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Wow.. that's awesome. Can you help me set that up on my PC? What programs are you using?


The data processing is in 'R' which is usually hosted in 'R Studio'. Both are free.

You will need to learn R, and this website here is a good place to start. If you work with data, learning R is worth the effort as it has many benefits over Excel.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#13 Posted : Saturday, March 2, 2019 11:43:01 PM(UTC)
I can't download FM7 again until the 15th when my internet data rolls over. When I do I'll let you know what I find.
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#14 Posted : Sunday, March 3, 2019 7:54:48 AM(UTC)
Unfortunately, I've studied the shock velocity time plot and histogram above and cant see how I would use them for tuning. So before any of you go down this visualization road, be aware that developing the plots is a lot easier than making tuning corrections from them! Suspension range of travel ie spring and ride height tuning works well in a scatter plot, but not much else - so far.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#15 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2019 1:45:17 AM(UTC)
To clarify, I'm not requesting or hoping you follow this procedure, just fyi.

Shaft velocity isn't greatly useful for tuning in Forza. If it had adjustable high-speed compression/rebound and knee velocity especially, it might be.

Load into a track by yourself. Find a curb or otherwise bump(s) you can drive over that simultaneously activate both left and right of the front, then rear, suspension. Do it at different speeds. time-align absolute travel traces, front to rear, according to the compression stroke. With equal or higher spring rates in the front, the rear should need a bit more damping than the front, to match the plots at a given desired speed.

At least, by the description in the site mentioned above, that would be the most effective way to tune dampers. I don't know if it's unequivocally true, or how Forza would respond to it.

Edited by user Monday, March 4, 2019 6:53:43 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Racing Permit
#16 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2019 10:47:52 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
To clarify, I'm not requesting or hoping you follow this procedure, just fyi.

Shaft velocity isn't greatly useful for tuning in Forza. If it had adjustable high-speed compression/rebound and knee velocity especially, it might be.

Load into a track by yourself. Find a curb or otherwise bump(s) you can drive over that simultaneously activate both left and right of the front, then rear, suspension. Do it at different speeds. time-align absolute travel traces, front to rear, according to the compression stroke. With equal or higher spring rates in the front, the rear should need a bit more damping than the front, to match the plots at a given desired speed.

At least, by the description in the site mentioned above, that would be the most effective way to tune dampers. I don't know if it's unequivocally true, or how Forza would respond to it.


My understanding of relative damping on racecars is that rear should be a little less damped so that rear 'catches up' with the front.

Airfield test track seems to have some significant bumps on the pavement. Anyone use other locations / tracks?

Rank: On the Podium
#17 Posted : Thursday, February 11, 2021 12:33:44 PM(UTC)
Great work Gryphon!

Has anyone figured out a method to import the data from Forza into MoTeC? I'd be interested in some sort of data converter for proper input to MoTeC. Thanks!

PRKid
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DJ Saoco

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