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#1 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2020 2:41:50 PM(UTC)
Announced on June 26:

"Our goal is to create a safe, secure, inclusive, and enjoyable experience for all players. Moving forward, the use of the Confederate flag on any car and under any circumstances will be categorized as a "Notorious iconography" in our enforcement guidelines and its use will result in a ban."

https://twitter.com/forza_support/status/1276621666278232064



One of the most well-known examples of this would be the Dodge Charger livery from The Dukes of Hazzard.

Please remember that specific enforcement cases are not open for discussion on the forums; if you are affected by this policy and have questions they need to be directed via ticket at Forza Support.

Edited by user Friday, June 26, 2020 2:42:21 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#2 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2020 3:38:03 PM(UTC)
And other things like the Japanese rising sun I see. I have a livery shared like that, I guess I better go unshare it before I get banned? I would hope there is a grace period as these things have been allowed for ~15 years and people made them in good faith thinking they were permitted.

(The Japanese rising sun is currently used by the Japanese navy and is not a hate symbol.)

Edited by user Friday, June 26, 2020 3:39:19 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#3 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2020 3:44:37 PM(UTC)
Just removed the General Lee livery from my Charger! As FN says, there must surely be a grace period and/or a warning system implemented here.

Edited by user Friday, June 26, 2020 3:49:11 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#4 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2020 3:52:24 PM(UTC)
The new havoc created by PG and MS.
I think all players should be respected.
And it's clear that big global corporations like MS had a social responsibility to address current issues like BLM.

But how many players were using these two pieces of content with discriminatory intent?
Probably almost all of them were without discriminatory intent, like the General Lee replica or the Liberty Walk logo.

Did they not consider that by abruptly banning these thousands or tens of thousands of content, a very large number of players who created and downloaded them would risk being banned?

I think they should enforce these new terms of service after the FM8 release or after one month.
There should be a reprieve for revisions to the guidelines that will fatally affect a very large number of players.

Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
And other things like the Japanese rising sun I see. I have a livery shared like that, I guess I better go unshare it before I get banned? I would hope there is a grace period as these things have been allowed for ~15 years and people made them in good faith thinking they were permitted.

(The Japanese rising sun is currently used by the Japanese navy and is not a hate symbol.)


If you want to keep your account safe, you should stop sharing it right away.
And if possible, you should also delete the livery.
*even if you don't share the livery, there is a risk that your drivatar will use it.

In an issue like this, you should basically assume that the argument that "there is no discriminatory intent in the content I created" doesn't hold water.

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#5 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2020 4:57:59 PM(UTC)
(Disregard, subject of post has already removed their conten).

Edited by user Friday, June 26, 2020 5:06:30 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#6 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2020 5:52:15 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: FullNietzsche Go to Quoted Post
(The Japanese rising sun is currently used by the Japanese navy and is not a hate symbol.)


Pretty sure a user pointed out that it in fact was an image of suppression long ago in the weeks preceding FH4 release.

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#7 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2020 5:59:16 PM(UTC)
While this is definitely the right move, it no doubt created some havok within the painting community. Across all games, there's probably hundreds of thousands of General Lee and Rising Sun JDM style paints by now. I agree, there definitely needs to be a grace period before bans start getting handed out because it's going to take time to get all the liveries out of the system (i.e. clearing storefronts and getting AI to stop using them). And I'm sure this caught many General Lee and JDM painters by surprise.

If you have such a livery, make sure you actually delete it. Unsharing it most likely won't cut it because your Drivitar can use unshared paints.

Edited by user Friday, June 26, 2020 6:01:21 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#8 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2020 7:23:12 PM(UTC)
I was a child of the 80s, and I remember Dukes of Hazard when it was on. But I was really more of a Knight Rider kid. So I don't really have any kind of strong attachment to the liveries. And I'm almost 100% certain I never downloaded one for the charger.

I kinda figured it was only a matter of time before they made this decision. It's been at the forefront of public consciousness for a few years now. I agree with the decision. It's time to move on. Though I would also agree with giving people a chance to remove their designs willingly, or at least deleting currently shared designs without penalty before fully enforcing the new rule.
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#9 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2020 8:10:04 PM(UTC)
Twitter reflex is mostly USA and youngest generation, not applicable everywhere and not for all ages.
People regularly coming to forum are few.
Some players are no longer active and may share some unexpected content
... surprise you were banned ...

Any livery that was shared previously to a new rule, should just be deleted when reported / user notified.
Before sharing a livery, there should be user notice listing all restrictions.
And for already shared liveries that got applied on some cars, I guess that since the liveries have an id, it's quite simple to block online display.

I am aware that what I am proposing requires dev, therefore less straight than 'ban th'm all' .Nevertheless, having taken a courageous decision doesn't mean applying it needs to happen with aggressiveness. I fully and strongly support that evolution here, just wish it comes to the game in an educated manner.

Like Peregrine, I was kid at the time of 'Dukes' , I never did any link to some racism until recent events. As from a childhood memory, I would have enjoyed having the famous horn but here again, possible that it has some racism meaning I never detected.

But here we are dealing with ban subject and I guess MM will soon put an end to it as not allowed to be discussed on the forum, so, let's see how it will be dealt with...


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#10 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2020 8:27:14 PM(UTC)
To me it's like removing the "SS" from the cars because it supposedly offends Jews.

Might as well remove the Beetle from the game, since we all know how the Beetle was created. Or remove the Auto Union and Mercedes, whose sporting successes were sponsored by... well, you know.
May the forced induction be with you.

Alice >>>>>>>>>> Keira
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#11 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2020 8:41:32 PM(UTC)
After reading the whole thing here, on Reddit, and on Twitter, I think that most people would agree to ban the confederate flag and that it's time to get over the General Lee thing and move on. What people are angry about is the execution, with PG and T10 coming after people from the get go. I think these revised guidelines would go a lot better if you...

1. Give the players a grace period to get all the offensive paint jobs out of the system.

2. Don't put the onus entirely on the players to get rid of each and every one of them. Let's face it, 99.9% of players who put the Confederate or Rising Sun flags on their cars didn't do it to be racist. They just wanted to replicate an iconic car or logo. So they're definitely caught off-guard here. The developers should be working together with the players to get rid of such paint jobs without penalty during this grace period. Many people here own many Forza games and it can be a pain to have to go through each and every game purging all your potentially offensive paints. And it would suck if you got banned just because you missed that old Rising Sun paint job in a past title you haven't touched in five years.

Edited by user Friday, June 26, 2020 8:42:43 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: R-Class Racing License
#12 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2020 11:20:56 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ManteoMax Go to Quoted Post
Moving forward, the use of... "Notorious iconography" in our enforcement guidelines… will result in a ban."


Hi Max, thanks for the link, I hadn’t checked that in a very long time and realised I have a featured item bearing one of those symbols specifically mentioned on the list - namely the Iron Cross. It’s on the Lemmy tribute I painted/shared Boxing Day 2018.


I’ve unshared the design but as you can see it’s had over 32,000 downloads so I’m wondering if other players will still have that file in their collection? If so, will they then be able to apply it to the car and sell it in the AH, leaving the Auction open to being reported and the possibility of a ban being issued?

FM7 / FM6 / FM4 / FM3 / FM2
FH4 / FH3
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#13 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2020 11:30:30 PM(UTC)


What is Rising Sun??? this??

Are you joking??
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#14 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2020 11:36:01 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
To me it's like removing the "SS" from the cars because it supposedly offends Jews.

Might as well remove the Beetle from the game, since we all know how the Beetle was created. Or remove the Auto Union and Mercedes, whose sporting successes were sponsored by... well, you know.


Volkswagens probably won't get banned. Despite the brand's history, Volkswagen cars aren't viewed as "hate objects" like a swastika flag or a noose would. People won't call you racist for driving a Beetle around but they definitely will for waving a swastika flag around.
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#15 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 12:33:33 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: The Last Flight Go to Quoted Post
People won't call you racist for driving a Beetle around ...


Oh yes they will on occasion (well not racist, but it is in the word associated with said meaning), often yes as a joke, but still will be said towards people who drive/own old Volkswagens and/or are fans of them

Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#16 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 1:35:54 AM(UTC)
I agree that the game should be open and free of any hate speech, intentional and direct symbolism, or depictions of violence or sexuality. But I am wary of our tendency to have knee-jerk reactions to public pressure rather than form a comprehensive cohesive solution.

Their Standard Enforcement Guidelines already have a three-strike rule that they implement for most violations. I would have hoped they'd apply it here as well. Most people with a considerable number of liveries might not even be aware of which ones have said imagery. And some may not have it as the central image as it could be woven in or incorporated into a larger design. I typically tend to have a problem with ZERO Tolerance Policies as most of them are a bit overboard without taking into consideration that mistakes happen, ignorance plays a part, and genuine misunderstandings can certainly be present.

There is probably the occasional truck with a Confederate Flag on it...but easily 99% of the Confederate Flags out there are on General Lee liveries. It's not done to promote racism, it is done to copy a very well-known car that happens to be available in the game most likely because of the show itself. A show that did not promote racism and in fact had more black actors in it over its run than many other popular shows (at the time as well as currently).

As Midnyte Dubh pointed out, the Iron Cross is another popular one as it is part of many biker emblems and pretty much any Motorhead livery. Am currently working on my own...oops. I find it tends to relate more to World War 1, not **** Germany, and feel that was why Motorhead tended to use it. (American speaking, my apologies for the following statement) I have found that WW I symbols and images are more popular with English groups/individuals whereas Americans tend to have more interest in WW II type memorabilia, hence the popularity of the Iron Cross in various images.

The Swastika itself is alive and well in numerous Hindu and Buddhist regions. In fact it is often painted specifically on cars as a sign of good fortune. Now there is typically a difference in the types of swastikas used, but the basic one is still identical to the one adopted by Hitler. So a thousands-year old symbol in all its forms is to be removed because of a 10-15 yr period. (Not downplaying the atrocities, merely pointing out its symbolism of hatred is not universal). There are a minimum of 15 different versions of the Swastika, most having never been used by **** ...so are all forms banned, or just the Hakenkreuz?

And the Rising Sun as far as I know is still a current flag. So are we not permitting flags of countries that have committed horrible acts? Because that list needs to be extended a bit (and again, speaking as an American, I have no doubt where my own flag belongs)

I am not saying all this to say this is a bad idea. I'm not just trying to stir up dissension. My point is, before we go throwing around Zero Tolerance and permanent bans, we need to understand there is something called context. There is intent. There is perception. So a slightly kinder hand needs to be used so we can understand what is at stake and not just be penalized for it. There are definitely inappropriate liveries, I have reported some myself. Vans with the N-word on them, a limo akin to a free-candy van, etc. And we have a system in place to handle that. (Hopefully, it is actually being used) So I don't feel there is a need to overreact and permanently ban someone who (out of numerous liveries created and downloaded by a very large number of people) happened to make one livery commemorating a particular music group that incorporated a symbol that someone might find offensive.

If you try to please everyone, you only end up pleasing no one. Do the right thing, yes, but do it the right way.
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#17 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 2:45:20 AM(UTC)
Absolute joke, the General Lee is an iconic car, something this game is supposed to celebrate.

I wish 1 of these companies would grow a pair and tell people offended by these sort of things the truth, in this case being that if that car offends you that's all on you and you're trying to conjure up racism + offensive content where there isn't any.
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#18 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 2:53:23 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Tilo38 Go to Quoted Post
But here we are dealing with ban subject and I guess MM will soon put an end to it as not allowed to be discussed on the forum, so, let's see how it will be dealt with...


This bugs me more than the Dukes of Hazzard ban. We cant talk about it? Thats telling me they dont care what we think. Henry Ford is a known racist so better ban Fords too as well as all the Germany cars because we know what that country did or are you only banning selective history? Banning History because someone doesnt like it doesnt make it go away. I thought this was a car game for car lovers. It's bad I'm going to get banned just for a iconic tv car. I dont want to cause trouble I just want to race my cars.

Edited by user Saturday, June 27, 2020 2:55:08 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#19 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 3:00:34 AM(UTC)
A simple solution, send the warning to everyone in game through the notification section - if possible load images of the design that will be banned. Hence, everyone will be warned and no excuses will be a legitimate defence this time.




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#20 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 3:48:06 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Adventfire Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Tilo38 Go to Quoted Post
But here we are dealing with ban subject and I guess MM will soon put an end to it as not allowed to be discussed on the forum, so, let's see how it will be dealt with...


This bugs me more than the Dukes of Hazzard ban. We cant talk about it? Thats telling me they dont care what we think. Henry Ford is a known racist so better ban Fords too as well as all the Germany cars because we know what that country did or are you only banning selective history? Banning History because someone doesnt like it doesnt make it go away. I thought this was a car game for car lovers. It's bad I'm going to get banned just for a iconic tv car. I dont want to cause trouble I just want to race my cars.


The simple use of the word 'ban' used to result in closing the topic...

Up to me, what they aim to is removing symbols used by racists to be identified as being racists. Mercedes etc are not symbols used by any racists groups I know of. I would not identify anyone as a racist because driving a dukes' car, kind of collateral casualty imho.

The big issue is they have now very limited resources, any phased moderation requires communication, communication has to be localized like 40 country/languages, takes money and a lot of time. I guess we will just suffer the unexpected ban accidents ...

Edited by user Saturday, June 27, 2020 3:49:32 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#21 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 4:30:13 AM(UTC)
The official description of the 1969 Charger even gave a shout-out to the TV show and particular car.

Quote:
Like any other large Chrysler product of the time, the Charger was in some ways conventional — there was the signature torsion-bar front suspension, the rear leaf-sprung live axle, and numerous choices of familiar Mopar iron under the hood. While the styling was slightly revised from the ’68 model, including horizontal taillights instead of the quad round units, it wasn’t Dodge itself that made this car so well known to the general public. Starting in 1979, the ’69 Charger R/T was the vehicle of choice for the Duke Boys in the television series “Dukes of Hazzard,” in which the Charger known as the “General Lee” was as much a star as the human actors. Of course the Charger also performs outside of television, considering it represents one of only several hundred to come from the factory with the legendary 426 HEMI. With a gargantuan amount of torque (480 lbs-ft., give or take) at the driver’s command, it’s no wonder the Dukes chose the car for their epic adventures involving leaping over hapless Hazzard County cops.


Kind of a double standard that they're mentioned in the description, yet people who try to actually replicate the show and car will get banned.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#22 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 4:44:05 AM(UTC)
Companies are almost making their own laws now, it's not right. If you pay £50 for a game it should not be possible to enforce that the people buying that game end up with a limited capacity to play that game.
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#23 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 6:32:08 AM(UTC)
The world has gone mad.

OK, fine, it's MS game and they can make their own rules, but why isn't any of the USSR or any of the other communist symbols in the inappropriate UGC list? You know the ideology and regimes that are responsible for over 100 million (if not more) victims. Yet now that list includes an iconic Charger design and Japanese rising sun. What's next? Union Jack on a Mini roof? White racing stripes on a Viper?

By the way, there is (unless they have changed it) a crowd character model in FH3, who has cannabis leaves on its hat.

edit: Maybe I should change my signature picture as well.

Edited by user Saturday, June 27, 2020 6:34:38 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#24 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 7:03:18 AM(UTC)
If only Forza's 'enforcement' team would be as keen to enforce rules against blatant hackers on the leaderboards and in online races. But when Nitro Glitter and other top Microsoft staff are openly endorsing BLM in their Twitter pages I guess we see where their priorities lie.
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#25 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2020 7:11:48 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: andrOOrdna Go to Quoted Post
The world has gone mad.
.


Yep, agreed.

Good luck to the ‘powers that be’ with putting this particular Genie back in its bottle.

(Arghhh! How long does this pre-mod period last? It’s so annoying.)
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