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Cross Country is broken for sure, there's no question about it.

There is also issues in Street Scene with Peel vehicles that are still broken: Picture here.

Only workaround below D 407 is to check Drivatar lineup before race and if there are Peel vehicles in grid, go to Difficulty and keep swapping between Unbeatable, Pro, Unbeatable and see if game generates new lineup without Peel vehicles, which is convoluted and I doubt many players even know about that possibility.

Peel vehicles cut of from Drivatar lineup is D 407, which is VW Baja bug, which then isn't competitive because most of its PI comes from lateral G's. There's also '67 VW Type 3 that that doesn't appear to be competitive in Street Scene / Unbeatable. Haven't tested in Road Racing or Dirt though.

Stock Maverick in Street Scene could achieve near top Rivals Leaderboard times at least against top B-class stock. Haven't had issues with it during my latest Street Scene run throughs though.

Previous




What glitch are you referring to?..





Lack of logical connection for the conclusion.




"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."



Make the game what people feel like.









Where's your comment?..




Regardless, they cheat.




...Pretty sure the very comments apply to your posts here.




I recommend you to try the "X 999" class. Or if you insist stock, try "2017 Koenigsegg Agera RS".


Combining with this:


You can find bugs, trucks, SUVs, ... running ridiculously fast comparing to those cutting edge performance toys (race cars designed for no race).






What do you mean really?



Follow-Up

Edited by user Saturday, April 18, 2020 4:25:30 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Easiest way to see how silly the AI gets is to do a race with only formula drift cars offroad, good luck winning.

No, it's very clear. If there's ~6 seconds faster time for fastest, winning Drivatar in results screen on Unbeatabe, that can be seen as evidence for a glitch.




Good that game isn't developed on that principle, horrible things has happened when people thought they saw a duck.



People like who? For me the game works, for some it doesn't. That's like every game ever.




Not my responsibility, besides I have always gone after features, not what is written to the box. You got the developer studio wrong BTW, it's Playground Games.



You somehow, totally not on purpose appeared to miss it from your quote pyramid. But here again.

'15 Chevrolet Camaro (S1 818 stock and S1 900 upgraded).

Street Scene, Ambleside Ascent, Autumn (rain), Unbeatable, no aids, manual.

Stock: - 1st. 2:26.864
Drivatar 2nd: 2:27.249

S1 900: 1st. 2:09.897
Drivatar 2nd: 2:13.602

Win margin:
Stock: 0:1.615
S1 900: 0:4.295

Relative performance against Drivatars increases with PI.



Oh, but now you are using my Camaro run. How surprising. Wait, it's not. But LOL, X-class isn't homogulated at all, it's the wild class. People who play the game know this. And what comes to Agera, or any car, burden of proof for alleged cheating is on you. I played along because other user appeared to be honestly curious, posted results, end of story.



And players can do that too. I have run upgraded vans, off-road vehicles, whatever vs Drivatar with sports car or whatever and won with considerable margin. I'm not going to argue about "But it's only 'cheating' when Drivatars do it!"




Oh, did that mess up your brain a bit? Sorry, but this ends here. All this "hundreds or screencaps don't matter because they aren't single screencap and data don't matter because it isn't in simple English so LOL didn't read" just isn't going to cut it for you. Find a doctor or whatever, I'm here because of game.

We are done.

Edited by user Saturday, April 18, 2020 2:21:03 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Maybe you forgot to take the handbrake off? Common mistake. ;-)

Edited by user Saturday, April 18, 2020 11:13:46 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Previous




As we cannot see what we cannot see, things can only be delivered at best effort.



Ideally, everyone. (cater as more players' likes as possible)





What has it to do with your "nothing to do with racing line" assertion?




Which means, you cannot reproduce the move with the very car.

Once tried racing a Drivatar ("Highly Skilled") driving stock "2012 Ferrari F12berlinetta" with the very car (Freeroam Head-to-Head), was able to constantly realize that it was pulling away in the straight line.



I must also emphasize: no Drivatar drives any "X 999" car as of 1.410.986.2.




It was never about the debate, it is always about the truth.

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I feel the opposite... I find "power builds" tend to be "overated" while "grip builds" tend to be "underrated".

---

The main bottleneck is not the physics simulation, but the AI's decision making.

Making the AI drives as good as (or be better than) the top tier drivers demands heavy verification on the algorithm design. They didn't bother, and simply made this cheating Drivatard thing...

Edited by user Monday, April 20, 2020 2:25:59 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

It's funny that this same issue was brought up in FM7 (where you can see the telemetry of the A.I. cars). If you watched the HP and g force numbers for the lead A.I., they were showing numbers outside of the abilities of whatever PI they were listed as. FH does not have the option to do this, so the "boost" the A.I. gets is unknown (but it's still there). It's especially noticeable when you run a 1 make/type race with a stock vehicle. The lead A.I. will walk you in a straight line, no doubt.

The discussion has derailed a bit. It's not a question of are the "Unbeatable" A.I. beatable, it's how PG programmed the difficulty level based on "boosting" attributes instead of increasing the A.I.'s ability to actually drive fast. Lower difficulty levels show that they are fast in a straight line, horrid around corners. It's why power builds in the right hands are so good against A.I., yet grip builds can still compete fairly well.

It blows my mind how people praised this being the BEST racing game and most REALISTIC, while we have these kind of AI....
I just notice a race yesterday with the AI, though my car is completely STOCK, no Tuning. Unless the AI had Tuned it's car....we both ran a 1 : One.
But the AI turn corner without ever need to slowing down and it wouldn't undeersteer even one bit nor ever oversteer due to the stupid weird power band or just bad Stock Gear Ratio tuning in general.
You can't even drive this car on the 1st - 3rd gear without spinning your tires.

So the AI just get further and further each corner, since it's car is like a completely different car from mine. Even on the straight you can feel that sometimes even we both have the same exact car, the AI have better Top / Acceleration.

Sometimes the AI starting on the 1st Position, even the other AI couldn't ever catch up to it....it will be MILES ahead....
BUT ! What's amazing is, if you overtake the AI, no matter what position. While you were struggling to overtake it before but once you overtaken them. All sudden the AI as if having some sort of engine problem with their cars....they slow down significantly and you can easily pull far away from them.....while before you struggle to even see their tail lights....

This is the best AI ever I've seen in all the racing games ( clearly being sarcastic )
Even Wreckfest does better than this....heck even GRID 2019's AI is better than this....

@FlashyClamp5213
I admire your persistence and your energy ... but most of the posts just turn out as troll imo, sorry.
Could probably do much good, but as it is - nope and I choose to ignore those posts from now on.
I also wonder why hiding behind secondary account (2 min FH4 playtime)?

ai now. faster then tune cars at stock. and what with all the ai ramming now?

Full post: Index of My Findings & Analysis on Forza Horizon 4

---

Would you mind pointing out what in my posts are not being factual?..



Simply to avoid unnecessary problems.

Well, that figures.




For last couple of weeks I have seen lots of new players in FH4. It's not only the Trials but there are those player dots all over the map and then I noticed they tend to gather where Bonus Boards are.

Meanwhile game is what it is and wild goose chase isn't helping anyone with what we have.

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So if you are new to Forza Horizon 4 and this all looks very confusing. This is for you.


On higher difficulty levels there's additional challenge to figure things out. For example: Edinburgh Station Circuit (Series 21 Playlist event: Championship: "German Engineering").
I messed it up, I don't know how many times, till I figured that Gunter Works Porsche Carrera 2 is still a Porsche, rear engine RWD. So I started driving it like one and took right lane past tram car stop instead of left where the driving line is. So it's a Porsche, drive it like Porsche, D'oh! moment for me.

I don't really tune but for Trial events and have some cars I experimented with to do PR stunts, so my knowledge is limited.
What definitely helped me though, was when I discovered that Porsche 918 Spyder can be tuned to take bends with Braking Line glowing red and I experimented with it to make it take more bends like that. In the process it became something that eats single player Drivatars for breakfast on most, not all, Single Player routes. It's good to experiment with stuff like that, to know what kind of car is good enough to have for higher class Trial events.


Driving aids

I needed to eliminate as many variables as possible for data gathering I did. It's also required for transparency that results are easily reproduceable by others, without downloading tunes, without need to figure out if there's ABS or traction control used or any convoluted process, and then it just stuck for me. That said, I never liked how FM7 homogulation made cars feel like clones. It a compromise that had to be done in FM7 for MP reasons, but I really enjoy racing the likeness of historical piece in FH4. That's all that there ever was to it.

IMO using aids like traction control and whatever with at least some RWD cars like '15 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 would make sense. Don't know if AWD's benefit as much, at least of all driving aid options, my gut feeling was that some of them were counterintuitive on AWD's.

Sim-steering in theory should decrease steering lock, allowing front tyres to have more steering angle. In practice I don't know how much difference that makes on gamepad at least. It may work the best when combined with well tuned differential but don't quote me on that though, I really don't know.


Speed and game physics

Lot's relative speed comes maintaining it and that comes from knowing the routes well. Doing races with any difficulty helps with getting familiar with bends, bumps, traffic patterns in Street Scene (there are several for every route) and game physics. Learning to anticipate bends, knowing braking points before corners and finding good corner entering and exit speeds helps a lot on Trials. In general, increasing game difficulty penalises for inaccurate decisions and execution, mistakes and rewards for developing skills.

That's not to say it can't be fun. Quite the opposite. For me physics is greatest feature this game has. While spinning wheels on corner exits is not good on higher classes that IMO are more and more about grip higher you go, on lower classes pushing and exceeding car limits is totally possible. For Street Scene Wind Farm Rush and Rail Yard Express are good examples, then certain uphill bend at Lakehurst Rush is about staying within grip limit maintaining as much speed as possible, tyres wailing but not quite losing it, to maximise forward momentum.

For Trials, on current one (series 21 Autumn "Silicon Rally") I'm have raced Renault 5 turbo with suboptimal tune quite successfully. That tune is about power gliding when game is about grip, but it can work and be very fun, but it really is worth to get to know the game first. Lot's of things are situational and it's huge game, with huge number of events and cars, unless you are looking for Ranked, it's just too much to cover in any single post. Time spent playing and developing a gut feeling for things occasionally trying higher difficulty challenges is probably best time investment for casual gamer.

Edited by user Sunday, April 19, 2020 8:33:44 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

(Quoted text for context, not necessarily attempt at direct engagement. No disrespect or 'challenge' to quote's posters intended.)

Forgive me, not trying to sass anyone or be contrarian for the sake of it, but has anyone stopped to consider that perhaps this (or at least some degree of it), what we see on our end as broken, may actually be working as designed? Where Motorsport is a more technical product that is far less forgiving where skill is concernd, Horizon without question is designed and marketed for much broader appeal to a wider audience. It may be worth keeping in mind something someone said very succinctly in another thread (I think a recent Trial commentary), to remember that this game is also enjoyed by small children, older folks, and newcomers alike as well as the seasoned and experienced players already familiar with both Horizon and Motorsport and racing products in general. As such, the game is designed for a vast range of skill sets, including AI and it's behaviors per difficulty level. "Unbeatable" AI ― in a game that pits grandfathers, their grandchildren, their top-tier Forza RC neighbors, and Mario Andretti against each other ― doesn't mean 'impossible' AI. So where things that appear broken to us, like when AI blasts through cross country destructibles with no slowdown but then mysteriously fall off pace after being overtaken, ...perhaps that's actually by design. Cross country destructables with no AI slowdown penalty could've been simply an easier way to code an amped up difficulty for the only event category to send you barreling through a few stone walls before your ascent up a precipice to pull a Thelma and Louise. Or when the AI that launches out like gangbusters (requiring near-early onset arthritis olympics with the controller to catch up with them) uncharacteristicly falls behind aver being overtaken, maybe that's more like a sort of built-in reward. I'm not saying that would necessarily the best or most elegant way to pull it off, but it may have been the easiest, cheapest way to deal with difficulty levels for the entire spectrum of skills.
I'm also not saying they didn't eff anything/this or that up, one doesn't have to look far for really obvious blunders...but there's been a good deal of bluster around this and a number of other core, inner-plumbing issues, so-to-speak, that I suspect have actually been functioning as designed or very close to it, much more than we know and despite what we we'd like to see otherwise.

Regardless whether any of is that is right or wrong, hats off to ClawedScroll554 for his exhaustive work posted here and other threads...he didn't have to do any of this, spend his time studying a myriad of issues and then take the time to report on it in such depth and detail – for OUR benefit – is truly commendable and deserving of some gratitude 🏆.

(And I don't recall whether it was regarding his post lengths in this thread or another related one, but I promise you that you won't see an effort like his come from PG, so those bemoaning the length of posts can go and get stuffed; this is a forum, a place for writing and reading - if you can only hand 150 or less, and can only manage 'u r lolz omg jajajaja leet,' find twitter.)

Ai faults are due to with in-game processing speed restrictions. Usually when programming the player car you can add all the physics like the drifting for example, but the other 11 cars can't use all the physics, because that would be too slow. So when you see an Ai car slide it looks fake, because it is fake (it looks more like a wobble). People are just asking to make the game fair so that when the Ai don't skid round bends they don't get an advantage from it.

Problems by design?..



"If a necessary feature has a high astonishment factor, it may be necessary to redesign the feature."






It was never meant to be personal.

I do appreciate whose effort, but the fact remains unsusceptible.

So, I'm not looking to go down any rabbit holes today, but...

1. Development of AI and the behavior thereof is a little bitmore complex than determing the most suitable menu bar for user engagement.

2. 'May' is a discretionary term. If that astonishes you, I may have to augment the statement...or I may not. Maybe the expense involved is prohibitive. Maybe a dual purpose is served, one users are not privy to or are even aware of. Maybe more harm/confusion will come from augmenting than good? Because I read somewhere that "when two elements of an interface conflict, or are ambiguous, the behavior should be that which will least surprise the user." As such, it's reasonable to conclude that whatever behavior or feature users are finding so knock-me-over-with-a-feather astonishing approximately 18 months later, the decision whether to make a change or leave in place was made a long, long time ago. I also read once that "the choice of 'least surprising' behavior can depend on the expected audience," and as others have already pointed out, including the astute person you quoted, "Horizon without question is designed and marketed for much broader appeal to a wider audience."

3. Sourcing your own snark posts with repackaged info is lame; don't waste my time.

4. "It was never meant to be personal." Really? Astonishing.

5. Okay, in all seriousness, you've been quite the chatty cathy here recently, squatting and dumping all over this game, which is fine, but I can't think a thing that you or anyone else here has skewered recently that hasn't already been roasted ad nauseam. Sure, theyre aggravating to some, but apparently not enough to warrant budget allocation for any action. Stuff like cross country buggy AI doesnt ruin the game and were just going to have live with it. But if youre really looking to sound the clarion call, to make a call to action addressing what really is ruining every aspect of the game, from online adventues to rivals leaderboards to the auction house, your time would be much better spent making as much noise as possible about the hacking and exploitation of this game through pc's...if you could enough attention generated to move that mountain, THAT would be a real service to us all.

So people should live with the problems only because they're not easy to fix?..




Surely that such astonishing behavior is the best they can deliver?..



Is such behavior really what the major audience of the game expect?




What's the point of composing a "different" message delivering completely identical ideas?




How, by any means, did it appear to be personal?.. I mean: why would people believe that it was made personal?





Isn't your conclusion absurd?.. As the very problems have been troubling the players over and over again.





And for whatever does not evolve, extinction awaits.




They're not the core of the game, not even related at all.

The game would still work as it would (for its major audience I assumed: car lovers), even with all these functions eliminated.


Also check this for my analysis on the game.

---

...If what you believed in can circumscribe you this so easily, probably it's the time to revise your belief.


Recommended reading:

• "The divine holy land, with resources in abundance"...
  
• Irrationality is the Square Root of All Evil

Edited by user Tuesday, April 21, 2020 6:39:32 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

As i said, they beatable. My Point was the Chance to meet a God-Drivertar(s) with Rubberbanding, Speeding like a Rocket out of Nowhere and so on. I call them Cheating AI but its just my Opinion, i mean as you said they 6 Seconds faster as usual. 6 Seconds are 6 Seconds, often there are 2 Seconds matter to get the first Place so its a lot. There is a Difference between loosing because of bad Driving Abilities and loosing because of this so called Boosts. I'm not a Ultra Pro but i'm not a Beginner too, even spending Hours to optimize Setups for my Cars depending on the type of Tracks like tight Corners in show Distances between, long Straights and so on. The Chance of loosing while testing my Setups is high and i definitely do while optimize the Setup but there i loose because of a bad Setup at this Point. After all, if i loose because i took a Corners wrong an lost 200 Milliseconds that is my fault, never blamed the AI at this Point.

Edited by user Monday, April 20, 2020 11:21:59 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Like I said, I'm not going down rabbit holes.

If whatever about this game sticks in your craw so much that it's driving you to create alternate accts to hide behind as you post drivel, make nonsense arguements, and sticking snips of quotes without any commentary, you might want to start looking for another game...or a therapist (no, AND a therapist 👌). Find something else to enjoy. I'm not trying to be insulting or anything, but if you're that dissatisfied with the game, well, your time and energy are of value, and i guess i just hate to see someone that seems to care about the game w a certain level of passion waste precious time and energy on changes i think we all want but we will not see this late in the game. Ships have sailed, i'm afraid. And this notion you keep referencing, that if PG and Microsoft dont bend to our will, fixing what we say needs fixing, or they go bankrupt/fold/cease to exist, THAT's what's absurd. That noise just now? That was PG laughing all the way to the bank. Anyway, done here, not wasting time responding to your fluffy-fluff, i've got a game to get back to. I hope you find something else you might enjoy doing. Sincere bout that. 👋

Thanks. Well, someone actually reads those posts... that's good to see. :-)

There's mountain of work done by others. For Drivatar research it was mainly V12 SprungBoss whom I got tips, and many others. There's car visual model inaccuracies and glitches topic, that is huge contribution from people posting their finding, not only to us who play Horizon 4, but for all future Forza games as car models move from older games to new ones.

Jezza14 and Rayne SE contribute towards, not only for those look good experience in Ranked and Rivals but also the Trial, building their own tunes, testing and commenting other players tunes. General knowledge about the game they and various other users post is very valuable, helps those are new to game contribute tunes to get better, like WangKeRui. whom tune for Renault 5 Turbo I took in top 100 at Ambleside Scramble last night.

Some players, like Seanbill who never posted that much contributed to understanding that Horizon 4 has really wide audience, people of all ages, I wasn't the first one to point that out.

Really huge thing, on Trials, those players whom has been just incredibly good. Sometimes with proper car, sometimes with most ridiculous ones, always bring 650 points, and with style. I learned a lot by following them and in team racing there are good reasons sometimes just to do that. The audience for this game is huge, so players like that are sort of anonymous heroes despite gamer tags, but they helped me a lot to discover things in game.

Big companies, they have their marketing departments, huge budgets just for advertising. I do believe customers are the last line of quality control and it's healthy to be critical too, but for the most part, physics and racing part, FH4 has been pretty good experience and new players probably would benefit the most from finding features they like.







I haven't tested step by step by for me it has looked like each step up in difficulty makes races, Drivatars about 3 seconds faster. Unbeatable can be really unforgiving for slightest of mistakes, some routes I have found to be more forgiving than others and difference in winning margin can be ~3 seconds for some and some hundredths for others.

While my times are with stock and while it may take time to find results from my TrueAchievements gallery, you could try checking my results with Pagani Huayra. It's S1 900 and if you built your cars for S1 900, see what times you get with them and, this is important, relative Drivatar results compared to their speed vs My Pagani Huayra run.

Edited by user Wednesday, April 22, 2020 6:42:12 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Grammar, etc

@ClawedScroll554, Squryl, and whoever believed that my posts are made personal: chill, and we shall seek a truce.

There's no point quarrelling between us. I believe we all wish to see a better game, our goals are common.

We shall be allies, not rivals.

i did a drag race and the reliant robin.... was going faster then my 200 mile a hour car..........

Can someone explain the janky AI behavior when playing online with other players ?? Not sure if you notice, at times when playing Co Op against AI with other players. The AI goes mad ! It will jitter all around the place ramming you left right or even hitting the brakes hard all sudden....what's up with that ?? Connection issues with other players ??

Also lastly, I can confirm the AI is broken in this game is because, one of the recent race. If you guys remember during the Summer Weekly, there was one race everyone have to use Class B Buggies....
Guess what....NO ONE LITERALLY NO ONE CAN EVEN CATCH UP TO THE AI !! No matter how hard we tried, the AI beat us all....I have to retry that game almost 3 times before I can win it.
No I wasn't being slow, I was around 3 - 4th place, but I can't ever catch the 1st - 2nd AI....

The rest of the teammates...almost dead last....but one VERY VERY WEIRD thing happened. Since we did luckily won 1 race....the first one I think. It's a 3 event Championship.
The last race is at the train yard. I don't know how but out of nowhere...a S1 Class, REAL LIFE PLAYER, joined the game !
So of course he easily took first place and stay there...that's how we finally won the Championship....

If you think I'm lying no I ain't but sadly I didn't screenshot it either...so I have no proof....but believe it or not, it happened like that and this is the first time I'm seeing this as well...
Not sure if it's a bug or the Developer came to the rescue lol ?? It was a Toyota Baja Truck, it's not even a buggy ! It's completely out of place....

As for attempting clean races with RWD just on the very edge of control like a true gentleman I've just about had it, having built a sort of blackbird porsche trying to get the BMW E92 M3 GTS challenge done, entering a corner in braking contest on the very edge of control, and if the silly tot up front isnt brake checking me or cutting into my line he has no chance to clear from that position, I heel & toe, feathering the brake pedal between caliper lockup and grip, flick it in and just keeping it between slide and grip to get the nose pointing out of the corner, and just when I floor it (when a Porsche is dangerous if unsettled) the AI proceeds to just RAM right into me spinning me into the wall.
And when I finally get it right, exiting corner in the EXACT perfect position to out-accelerate whoever is out front, on a nice wide long straight = They rubberband and then accelerates like bats right out of hell.

I then go back and tune the car, sacrificing grip for acceleration based on the abilities of the cars that the AI had the first go-around, nope they rubberband again+corner even better despite horrendous racing lines.

Edit 2 or 3 (cant remember at this point): And, perhaps unrelated, but it doesn't exactly help: Do we get to change & upgrade cars in the event or do we have to completely quit the event, spawn like pfffff 50 miles away, then drive back to the event area?
Oh, yep yep yep spawn 50 miles away, change car, go to festival to upgrade, and HOPE TO GOD IT'S UPGRADED RIGHT, then drive back and fail again anyway, sorry, my mistake how could I forget :)
And THEn there's the rally and trophy truck stuff, whatever car I grab the Ai does 10x better and has perfect traction through dooooodgy as heee*k corners and apparently has aircraft control surfaces through jumps, IRL you dont jump around like that even in the most grueling of rallies, you want the car to last.

Fixed any of that? Nope, but they got no issues adding lots of emoji's and social avatar doohickery.
Just when I thought I had the bunch of that spastic stuff unlocked so I can finally get to unlock all the thicc cars, maybe even Trueno if permissible (because apparently I dont get to auction snipe like everyone else in the world), NOPE another batch of emoji stuff just to make sure I don't have any fun with the game, my bad again.
Sorry for the rant but the game has been out ages and they've fixed none of the bugs that makes the game soooo annoying for any playtime length more than 1hr at a time.

Edited by user Wednesday, April 22, 2020 2:34:00 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

i know. about a month and a half ago. the trail was beyond buggy... i tried 20 times to win it. ai car would get ahead ... then stop in the race. go in reverse and vanished ..... i got real mad about it and posted about it...
i manage to capture hours with of video of the ai bugging out. was able to replace it to.....