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I need much more time to read everything but the dirt like tarmac I was working on today again :D I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing but the dirt in Horizon doesn't work like dirt. It's pretty clear but nobody approved it but me.

Edited by user Monday, March 9, 2020 3:08:22 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Ima have to stop you right here. lapping drivatars on unbeatable can be done within 5-7 laps on pretty much all tracks.

So after 3 laps rubberbanding turns off?

Note: I'm not wanting to steer this topic to off-topic but it's a valid question. I actually tried to do some tuning, toy with suspension settings to see if I could make cars power glide on dirt but I never got it working like it should. In general I find cornering on Dirt unnatural because you need to drive like on tarmac, except on tarmac you can actually do some tricks by clutch kicking and weight transfer.
So I came to think of two possible explanations, this is about stock RWD's. 1. Left and right sides wheels rotation isn't fully separated (lock engaged) when coasting, or 2. Front wheels turn radius is somehow limited even when using sim-steering. It's scenario 1 why I asked about if using clutch makes it work, because it should.

In context of this topic it's about psychology. If Drivatars can take a curve on what is equal to say 3rd on stock ratios on most cars, but player needs to shift down to 2nd. and then again back to 3rd to make it and can't use proper Dirt racing techniques to catch up it can be frustrating. So I came to think if there could be some sort of trick, like using manual with clutch for player to compensate.

There's a flip side to this too. It's been I don't know about a year but then at least some cars on tarmac races like stock '70 Chevelle Super Sport 454 and '68 Oldsmobile Hurst/Olds 442 were practically God Mode, partially because player could take advantage of their wobbly nature by doing weight transfer and Drivatars couldn't. Based on that I wonder, how competitive Drivatars would be if players could actually use proper dirt techniques? :-D I really wanted to be able to do that, never mind Drivatars.

To sum it up, what if something that's attributed to Drivatar AI (in Dirt Racing) isn't a matter of AI, but instead matters of game physic and / or limitations related to player car features? Drift mechanics comes to mind (again) as one possible reason, but I don't want to expand this discussion here to that.





This is actually a good post. Thanks! Will try myself later on this week. Maybe we can shot down another rumour.

I've run multiple tests myself, the rubber-banding hardly does anything, they may get 1-2 seconds faster per lap at best, but if you're 5-8 seconds ahead per lap, then they don't stand a chance. Maybe if you were better at the game you'd notice it.

I think there might be quite a few of us who prefer to race on many routes. Usual way to play for me was to pick some stock, run every Street event there is while listening to Spotify. Same for Road Racing circuits, default blueprint is way to go because you win anyway, rest is curiosities. Something here made me think of facepalm icon for some weird reason, but I digress.

Yeah, that's exactly my problem. Dirt in Horizon is bumpy tarmac for me. Different from tarmac is lower grip and losing grip is not so sudden. Still I need some testing but this is what I saw.

You probably play different game, bro. Or you brake it somehow.

Can't get through a 'pro' or 'unbeatable' race in a RWD car without being hit if you want to make the podium. There's always some jerk who feels the need to slam into you. It's worse online ( unless you choose collisions off, but who wants all ghosted cars?!), but this garbage shouldn't be a thing with the Ai unless I hit them first. Just like Grid 2019 does it. They shouldn't be aggressive until you've ticked them off. Also, whoever says that these drivatars aren't programmed to mimic real players is fooling themselves. They behave very similar to the people I've encountered in online races.

Edited by user Tuesday, March 10, 2020 11:22:12 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

With AI only I played many races with RWD car cleanly and won on unbeatable. When you play with some friends network sync causes "aggresive" AI.

I call BS. I get hit on the first turn. Every time. Sometimes from behind, sometimes from the sides. I'm sick of having to restart solo races because some driver in a silly outfit can't stop being a complete moron or jerk. Can't rightly figure out which it is.

Edited by user Tuesday, March 10, 2020 12:40:46 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

The AI in this game probably is the worst I have ever experienced in any racing games. I could somewhat deal with Drivatars and could get 2nd or 3rd place consistently. What I couldn't deal with is there seems to be always that one guy who smoke everyone few seconds into the race and by the time you climb to 2nd place, he's already long gone. The AI is at it worst in Circuit races imo. In those races, you have to brake, slow down a lot. Meanwhile they just blast through the track, no brake, no slowdown.

Edited by user Sunday, March 15, 2020 2:15:04 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

OK, it's possible, there are many configurations. So I play road racing and S1 RWD car and can win without any problems. Sometimes I have collisions if I brake "too early" but usually not. Maybe you need to go around them a bit?

I've been playing S1 in a RWD 812 all afternoon, and I've not once gotten through a race without one of these drivatars hitting me. Not once. They've rear-ended me going into turns, and side swiped me as I tried to pass when there's clearly an opportunity on a straight. You name it, they've countered my every move with nefarious tactics. Just like online adventure. I'm not playing unbeatables either, just pro. This is ridiculous.

Strange, we need to try the same car and track ;) Tomorrow I can test it. I am very happy with unbeatable, it usually without any contact.

And for dirt tarmac feeling, somebody already created a thread:
https://forums.forzamoto...s-dirt-real-or-fake.aspx

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xHt6uYuWSw

^there ya go. 8 laps, stock BAC Mono RWD, Unbeatable difficulty. won with 11 second lead.

Despite the AI's best lap being 1 second from mine, and one of them having a faster time, they did not catch up enough to even come close to unfair play.

Thanks. There is no discussion if rubberbanding exists because it's clear but it's good you did some tests. This one showed many good things too like you wrote already.

Where is the lapping after 7th lap?

Why you don't have best lap time? Maybe you don't have enough skill? Unbeatable is easy, right? Or maybe AI did something nasty?

If you can lap the AI has more to do with the diameter/area of a lap than with your speed.
On tracks like Greendale Club, Ambleside, Horizon Festival you can lap unbeatable AI because the AI never leaves the "drawing distance" aka visibility on the minimap.
On stuff like Goliath or my own test track it's impossible to lap the AI.
Once they are at "drawing distance" they rubberband with my speed. Doesn't matter if I crush my track on S900 in 5:35 in the Monaco KC or need 6 minutes + in a bad S900 car. The distance to the AI is always identical and their lap times are basically on pace with me.

Edited by user Wednesday, March 11, 2020 5:34:38 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Exactly, the same experience here. It's probably possible in some situations but normally you have them still around you - no lapping possible.

And thanks for the drawing distance tip. I don't do small circuits very often so I can test it but I recall it was always easier to lead there.

Edited by user Wednesday, March 11, 2020 5:47:51 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Sorry for not editing the quote (too lazy) but if you're playing on a controller it's #2. There is a limit to front wheel turning. Drift suspension will loosen this up a bit, but if you want to unlock steering fully, you need a wheel.

About #1 though... you can set your lock level on your rear tires by purchasing a 2-way differential. If you don't have the option to install one, it means it's already installed.

I overestimated how far I actually got when I made the video, still didn't have an issue with them catching up at unfair speeds. The game gave the AI rubber-banding power after I was already too far ahead, but it wasn't enough. I was too far for unbeatable AI. Plus this is not the best car for the track, just one people told me to use. A stock RWD car.

Yeah, I was referring to that topic but I would like to keep that exact discussion there and possible effect races and how we experience Drivatars here. And we got some answers...



Thanks, makes sense. How can I verify limited front wheel turning response issue? Can it be done via telemetry? I don't have a wheel to test and compare.

I know about differential upgrades but it's that I race these bone stock. I found that fun but it also makes repeating results really easy, thus transparency. Important baseline really.

Telemetry for sure shows it because you can't steer more then you "should". You don't need telemetry to see it. It's how every Forza works on a controller. It's pretty interesting assist.

Thanks Rayne. That's what I read earlier and I remember there was also something about Drivatar speed somehow scaling with race length. Gotta try those routes mentioned though.

Here are two screencaps from Lakehurst Copse 3 laps with stock BMW M3. This was during last Horizon Autumn I perhaps. Look at the Drivatar times bottom of results. 1 - 2.

IMO final results screen doesn't always reflect what happened in actual race. Still, lapping during normal events seems unlikely to occur expect in scenarios when Drivatars stay within "Drawing Distance" bubble.

For odd scenarios I recall one Playlist Championship. There were Mercedes-Benz AMG CLK GTR, probably McLaren F1 GT, Porsche 911 GT1 Strassenversion and Lotus Elise GT1 eligible for that event and I chose stock Lotus GT1 for it. One of the races was at Lakehurst Copse. I think it was usual 3 lap race but for some reason I nearly came to lap slowest Drivatar. For some reason it was behind the pack and I got it visually in my sight during last lap and I was still catching up. I remember thinking on that last straight how it would needed just one more lap to lap it. I don't recall anything like that ever happened before or since on default single player events.

But it was intriguing and for those who like to play endurance possibility to Drivatar pack to break up and being able to lap slowest ones might contribute towards better Horizon experience. As it is, I don't myself see much point in doing endurance races, may work for clubs though.




It was never in question if Drivatars can't be beaten like that. It was about lapping them. Thanks for posting the video though. Nice lines with that Mono.