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Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#76 Posted : Wednesday, November 20, 2019 2:45:28 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
Ok I take that back. Looks like Track Tor times but not BS have been removed and Track Tor times only in B class not C or D.


Looks they are completing the cleaning of databases, I saw my ranking changing between 2 requests and BS disappearing ... they did it .... they did it... !!!! For once I am happy, job done as announced and with logic. I know it won't last long but removal of TTor put me top 10 of few rivals I did there, quite enjoyable.

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#77 Posted : Wednesday, November 20, 2019 2:47:02 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
Ok I take that back. Looks like Track Tor times but not BS have been removed and Track Tor times only in B class not C or D.


Sounds just like typical PG half done. So we have two classes where leaderboards dont have banned cars, great job PG!
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#78 Posted : Wednesday, November 20, 2019 3:00:07 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: V12 SprungBoss Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
Ok I take that back. Looks like Track Tor times but not BS have been removed and Track Tor times only in B class not C or D.


Sounds just like typical PG half done. So we have two classes where leaderboards dont have banned cars, great job PG!


Well **** , never mind about my other comment then.

This is annoyingly half implemented. PG basically admitting it’s broke in rivals, but only in B class. Which is just like ugh what ugh
Rank: Driver's Permit
#79 Posted : Wednesday, November 20, 2019 4:09:52 PM(UTC)
They said that they'll release cars in the Forzathon shop on Black Friday at stupidly low prices throughout the day. For anyone who goes to school or has a day job, won't be able to buy most of the cars because they're not home and/or on their Xbox. Please fix this Playground Games.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#80 Posted : Wednesday, November 20, 2019 5:12:47 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
I mentioned that back on page 1. I just think it compromises the game design to tailor it towards engagement metrics rather than the best interest of the players.


  1. Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
    I just think it compromises the game design. . .

    That's your opinion based on what you think the game should be and not the actual game that PG delivered to us.


  2. Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
    . . . to tailor it towards engagement metrics. . .

    Isn't that what a game publisher is supposed to do? Or are they supposed to make a game so unappealing that players intermittently play it if ever at all? The "engagement metrics" must be suggesting to PG that their approach is working. So why would they ruin that with your suggestions? How would they stay in business if they didn't pay attention to those numbers? What faith would Microsoft have in PG's leadership if they tailored everything to what @Lowe0 specifically wanted rather than what the broad-based numbers were telling them?


  3. Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
    . . .rather than the best interest of the players.

    And whose interests would those be? Yours? What about mine? 'The Trial' is the one feature of the Playlist that I actually look forward to each week, and your suggestions would do nothing more than adversely affect the quality of that experience for me or anyone else who enjoys it.

    I agree that offline players, such as yourself, should eventually have access to the same cars that are made available to online players of the standard product. However, if your access to those vehicles is delayed, then so be it. I don't think that you can really demand anything more than that from PG simply because you've chosen to do less for their "engagement metrics" than other players.

    If there's any fault on PG's part, then it's that they've overlooked the fact that some players can't get cars because they're "offline" and not because they find the Trial difficult. I don't believe for one second that PG is out to get back anyone who presents any resistance to their plans. My guess is that when they design a Seasonal Playlist, they're testing it on accounts with unlimited access to everything in the game. So it wouldn't surprise me a bit if they forget the fact that offline players can't get to 80% on the Seasonal Playlist when they eventually put a "Trial car" there. They just need to be more aware of what they're doing with the accessibility of rewards when they design a Playlist. A policy of putting exclusive cars into the 50% Seasonal Playlist slot or the Festival Playlist is a much better way of ensuring that people like yourself aren't permanently left out of the game. Either that or make Tommy Bargains a featured car dealer once every three months. Aside from that, you'd need to convince us online players why we shouldn't be playing 'The Trial' if you really want to gain any traction with getting "paid" in Forzathon Points instead of an entire reward car. If you can't, then you're never going to be able to affect the "engagement metrics" enough to prompt PG to change the status quo.

    Anyway, I'm not here to defend PG. However, I am here to defend my right to have a quality, online experience because I'm actually paying for it with an Xbox Live Gold subscription. So my apologies if I show very little sympathy to those that dislike online play and are attempting to affect the quality of those features that I'm perpetually paying for in addition to the cost of the base product.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#81 Posted : Wednesday, November 20, 2019 5:17:13 PM(UTC)
Can anybody else share tunes? After update when i try to share tune i get error that is blocked because langue filter.

Edit: after chancing car sharing works again, weird bug anyways.

Edit2. Well next bug, i cant set time some of the events in rivals.

Edited by user Wednesday, November 20, 2019 5:56:49 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#82 Posted : Wednesday, November 20, 2019 6:01:18 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ForbiddenBeef21 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: V12 SprungBoss Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
Ok I take that back. Looks like Track Tor times but not BS have been removed and Track Tor times only in B class not C or D.


Sounds just like typical PG half done. So we have two classes where leaderboards dont have banned cars, great job PG!


Well **** , never mind about my other comment then.

This is annoyingly half implemented. PG basically admitting it’s broke in rivals, but only in B class. Which is just like ugh what ugh


Ok, definitive answer is that all Boneshaker and Track Tor times seem to have been removed. Oddly, the first time I search for them some of the routes still show them but second time they are all gone. If you had a non Track Tor lead time, you should now be WN1 👍!

Edited by user Wednesday, November 20, 2019 6:03:23 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#83 Posted : Wednesday, November 20, 2019 6:02:20 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: V12 SprungBoss Go to Quoted Post
Can anybody else share tunes? After update when i try to share tune i get error that is blocked because langue filter.

Edit: after chancing car sharing works again, weird bug anyways.

Edit2. Well next bug, i cant set time some of the events in rivals.


Which tracks? I haven’t had any problems.

Rank: R-Class Racing License
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#84 Posted : Wednesday, November 20, 2019 6:11:56 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
If there's any fault on PG's part, then it's that they've overlooked the fact that some players can't get cars because they're "offline" and not because they find the Trial difficult. I don't believe for one second that PG is out to get back anyone who presents any resistance to their plans. My guess is that when they design a Seasonal Playlist, they're testing it on accounts with unlimited access to everything in the game. So it wouldn't surprise me a bit if they forget the fact that offline players can't get to 80% on the Seasonal Playlist when they eventually put a "Trial car" there. They just need to be more aware of what they're doing with the accessibility of rewards when they design a Playlist. A policy of putting exclusive cars into the 50% Seasonal Playlist slot or the Festival Playlist is a much better way of ensuring that people like yourself aren't permanently left out of the game. Either that or make Tommy Bargains a featured car dealer once every three months. Aside from that, you'd need to convince us online players why we shouldn't be playing 'The Trial' if you really want to gain any traction with getting "paid" in Forzathon Points instead of an entire reward car. If you can't, then you're never going to be able to affect the "engagement metrics" enough to prompt PG to change the status quo.

Anyway, I'm not here to defend PG. However, I am here to defend my right to have a quality, online experience because I'm actually paying for it with an Xbox Live Gold subscription. So my apologies if I show very little sympathy to those that dislike online play and are attempting to affect the quality of those features that I'm perpetually paying for in addition to the cost of the base product.
[/list]


Dude, you can have your Trial without the need to have newly added cars as prizes. That's the point we're trying to make.

IMO, Trial has two problems: difficulty (not an issue for me but I speak for others) and timed availability. I'm not against unlocking stuff, I'm against the timed aspect. There's plenty of stuff in the game like Star Cards I'm actually okay with.

Trial, like any mode, is largely dependent on the settings. There have been quite a few good Trials, but many are very bad. Just like every other challenge on the Playlist.
May the forced induction be with you.

Alice >>>>>>>>>> Keira
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#85 Posted : Wednesday, November 20, 2019 6:31:08 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
Dude, you can have your Trial without the need to have newly added cars as prizes. That's the point we're trying to make.

Dude, you've totally missed the point that I made to @Lowe0. It's not about having "my" Trial or a Trial. Simply go to unranked MP and see how busy it is there. Then go to the Trial. That's the difference in quality that a desired incentive produces.

See "Nudge Theory":
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post


Rank: A-Class Racing License
#86 Posted : Wednesday, November 20, 2019 6:46:34 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: V12 SprungBoss Go to Quoted Post
Can anybody else share tunes? After update when i try to share tune i get error that is blocked because langue filter.

Edit: after chancing car sharing works again, weird bug anyways.

Edit2. Well next bug, i cant set time some of the events in rivals.


Which tracks? I haven’t had any problems.



3 different dirt circuit i even tested few different class without working, i think first it would be because i have use either bone shaker or tractor there before but a-class in bamburgh works just fine.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#87 Posted : Wednesday, November 20, 2019 6:47:14 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: V12 SprungBoss Go to Quoted Post
Can anybody else share tunes? After update when i try to share tune i get error that is blocked because langue filter.

Edit: after chancing car sharing works again, weird bug anyways.

Edit2. Well next bug, i cant set time some of the events in rivals.


Which tracks? I haven’t had any problems.



Hm. A couple months ago I noticed I couldn’t set a D class time on one particular track in legoville. All other classes on that track were fine, all other rivals events fine as well. I went through the whole support ticket rigamarole and it was never fixed.

Hopefully that wasn’t related to V12’s problem though; because it’d be very disappointing if a rare bug I reported months ago never got fixed and then became more widespread.

Oh wait. That’s happened before :/
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#88 Posted : Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:44:10 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ForbiddenBeef21 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: V12 SprungBoss Go to Quoted Post
Can anybody else share tunes? After update when i try to share tune i get error that is blocked because langue filter.

Edit: after chancing car sharing works again, weird bug anyways.

Edit2. Well next bug, i cant set time some of the events in rivals.


Which tracks? I haven’t had any problems.



Hm. A couple months ago I noticed I couldn’t set a D class time on one particular track in legoville. All other classes on that track were fine, all other rivals events fine as well. I went through the whole support ticket rigamarole and it was never fixed.

Hopefully that wasn’t related to V12’s problem though; because it’d be very disappointing if a rare bug I reported months ago never got fixed and then became more widespread.

Oh wait. That’s happened before :/


Oh yeah those kinda bugs are really annoying even more when those dont get fixed.

In highland farm scramble in a-class and b-class i cant set time but c-class where i havent use tractor i was able to improve my time and got my name at #1
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#89 Posted : Wednesday, November 20, 2019 9:31:26 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: V12 SprungBoss Go to Quoted Post

ATS seems to be best bet to be competive car. Cars with similar PI dont lose mutch PI when awd swapped or sometimes awd swap just adds PI (like newest vipes where awd swap adds 3 points) but i still think that ATS have potential to be really good S1 car.

My bet abaout Pista is that it cant be reduce at S1. Diablo, yeij yet another racing V12 swap, starts to get really damn boring.


Exactly....on all accounts. Tired of the V12 swap. Nicely engineered sound, don’t get me wrong (sounds like the same sound Turn 10 used in the older Forza Motorsport games. One of the better ones).
I buy, upgrade and tune cars to the max. That's what I live for in Forza. I'm always in the need for more cars. Check out my custom routes in Horizon 4! https://forums.forzamoto...routes.aspx#post_1133141
Rank: D-Class Racing License
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#90 Posted : Thursday, November 21, 2019 1:19:04 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
I mentioned that back on page 1. I just think it compromises the game design to tailor it towards engagement metrics rather than the best interest of the players.


[list=1]
  • Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
    I just think it compromises the game design. . .

    That's your opinion based on what you think the game should be and not the actual game that PG delivered to us.


  • Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
    . . . to tailor it towards engagement metrics. . .

    Isn't that what a game publisher is supposed to do? Or are they supposed to make a game so unappealing that players intermittently play it if ever at all? The "engagement metrics" must be suggesting to PG that their approach is working. So why would they ruin that with your suggestions? How would they stay in business if they didn't pay attention to those numbers? What faith would Microsoft have in PG's leadership if they tailored everything to what @Lowe0 specifically wanted rather than what the broad-based numbers were telling them?


  • Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
    . . .rather than the best interest of the players.

    And whose interests would those be? Yours? What about mine? 'The Trial' is the one feature of the Playlist that I actually look forward to each week, and your suggestions would do nothing more than adversely affect the quality of that experience for me or anyone else who enjoys it.

    *snip a bit*


  • I think the point here is that if you design a game properly, the game itself is engaging enough to not need big 'external' incentives for people to play it.
    Ultimately you would like people to participate in Trials because they like participating in them, not (just) because they want the prize at the end.

    This form of game design would be in the best interest of all the players. You would have your Trial with enough players and everyone else would have their favorite game mode(s).

    This is a highly hypothetical discussion though. Damn you Dungeons and Dragons!

    Edited by user Thursday, November 21, 2019 1:20:00 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

    Rank: S-Class Racing License
    #91 Posted : Thursday, November 21, 2019 1:47:01 AM(UTC)
    Originally Posted by: V12 SprungBoss Go to Quoted Post
    Originally Posted by: ForbiddenBeef21 Go to Quoted Post
    Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post
    Originally Posted by: V12 SprungBoss Go to Quoted Post
    Can anybody else share tunes? After update when i try to share tune i get error that is blocked because langue filter.

    Edit: after chancing car sharing works again, weird bug anyways.

    Edit2. Well next bug, i cant set time some of the events in rivals.


    Which tracks? I haven’t had any problems.



    Hm. A couple months ago I noticed I couldn’t set a D class time on one particular track in legoville. All other classes on that track were fine, all other rivals events fine as well. I went through the whole support ticket rigamarole and it was never fixed.

    Hopefully that wasn’t related to V12’s problem though; because it’d be very disappointing if a rare bug I reported months ago never got fixed and then became more widespread.

    Oh wait. That’s happened before :/


    Oh yeah those kinda bugs are really annoying even more when those dont get fixed.

    In highland farm scramble in a-class and b-class i cant set time but c-class where i havent use tractor i was able to improve my time and got my name at #1


    Yeah, looks like it won’t show a time for you if you had a previous quicker Track Tor time. Presumably those times haven’t been deleted but just hidden so the game doesn’t think you’ve beaten your best time.

    Rank: A-Class Racing License
    #92 Posted : Thursday, November 21, 2019 2:37:51 AM(UTC)
    Originally Posted by: Jezza14 Go to Quoted Post

    Yeah, looks like it won’t show a time for you if you had a previous quicker Track Tor time. Presumably those times haven’t been deleted but just hidden so the game doesn’t think you’ve beaten your best time.



    Yeah it looks so, i was able to set time in bamburgh in a-class earlier but now that time is gone also and so far anything where i know i have set time either with tractor or bone shaker i cant set time now, great job PG.
    Rank: D-Class Racing License
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    #93 Posted : Thursday, November 21, 2019 3:34:22 AM(UTC)
    Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
    I don't think that you can really demand anything more than that from PG simply because you've chosen to do less for their "engagement metrics" than other players.

    I've got over 300 hours in the game since launch. If that's not an engaged player, then what is?

    Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
    A policy of putting exclusive cars into the 50% Seasonal Playlist slot or the Festival Playlist is a much better way of ensuring that people like yourself aren't permanently left out of the game.

    The existence of such a policy is a persistent fiction backed by no evidence in favor and examples to the contrary (see the recent return of the 917 LH, or the upcoming return of the ZR2, both of which require multiplayer).

    Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
    So my apologies if I show very little sympathy to those that dislike online play and are attempting to affect the quality of those features that I'm perpetually paying for in addition to the cost of the base product.

    How does giving other players access to content negatively impact your experience?


    Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
    Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
    Dude, you can have your Trial without the need to have newly added cars as prizes. That's the point we're trying to make.

    Dude, you've totally missed the point that I made to @Lowe0. It's not about having "my" Trial or a Trial. Simply go to unranked MP and see how busy it is there. Then go to the Trial. That's the difference in quality that a desired incentive produces.

    See "Nudge Theory":
    Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post




    Nudging people into modes they don't want to play is the opposite of encouraging quality gameplay. It encourages them to idle, tapping the controller occasionally to evade the kick mechanism, until by chance they win.

    Originally Posted by: Scimmia22 Go to Quoted Post

    I'm sorry to tell you this, but it's 2019. Multiplayer is a fact of life; games that don't have it are pretty much dead on the vine.


    I'm not saying the game shouldn't have multiplayer. I'm saying that the single player and multiplayer reward pools should be the same.

    Edited by user Thursday, November 21, 2019 4:03:31 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

    Rank: D-Class Racing License
     1 user liked this post.
    #94 Posted : Thursday, November 21, 2019 11:29:21 PM(UTC)
    Originally Posted by: Sir iLex Go to Quoted Post
    I think the point here is that if you design a game properly, the game itself is engaging enough to not need big 'external' incentives for people to play it.
    Ultimately you would like people to participate in Trials because they like participating in them, not (just) because they want the prize at the end.

    This form of game design would be in the best interest of all the players. You would have your Trial with enough players and everyone else would have their favorite game mode(s).

    This is a highly hypothetical discussion though. Damn you Dungeons and Dragons!

    Is Forza Motorsport an "improperly" designed game in comparison to Horizon? FM7 gave away cars on a monthly basis before closing shop. That didn't drive more people to play it more than, say The Trial. Horizon has a much larger player base than Motorsport. By that logic, there must be something wrong with the game design of Motorsport because they gave away "big 'external' incentives" yet nobody was really playing it.

    "Ultimately you would like people to participate in. . ." [hypothetical activity] ". . .because they like participating in them, not (just) because they want the prize at the end." Fair point, but here's another way to look at it: you go to school; you're given assignments; you complete those assignments; you take exams to demonstrate your understanding of those assignments; and afterwards your efforts are rewarded with a grade. You could always choose to do less, but the reward (grade) will be "less". That sounds a lot like incentivizing students to do their best. So the entire educational system must be "improperly" designed, right? So what if you go to school and assignments were optional, exams were optional and nobody were given a grade for as much or as little work they did in a semester? How many students do you think would take that arrangement as seriously as when there were "incentives" in place? Isn't the educational system designed to be in the "best interest of all the 'players'"? But yet. . . it sounds like it isn't.

    Now back to Forza Motorsport. What's wrong with a game about circuit races? Apparently it's less appealing for people to race in a near-SIM experience than to jump a car from Arthur's Seat based on the user numbers. Obviously there needs to be a redesign of the game because Motorsport isn't attracting players like Horizon. Well, that's not it either. In general, the car genre of games is less appealing to gamers today than other genres. It's not a reflection of a bad game or bad game design. It's a matter of peoples' tastes changing. So the big question is where did PG go wrong with 'The Trial'? "Ultimately you would like people to participate in Trials because they like participating in them, not (just) because they want the prize at the end." Since 'The Trial' is apparently the most "despised" game mode by your admission, then what would happen if PG just removed all rewards from the Playlist -- just have a Playlist with the usual things but with no incentives? Would people play the Seasonal Games more now? Or would they do the Weekly Forzathon, which would now award nothing? Would they still play 'The Trial'? Or maybe just the Community Routes? Developer Challenges? Would people play the Playlist at all? The argument to remove rewards from 'The Trial' is the same as removing them from any other item on the Playlist. Removing all rewards should be in the "best interest of all players", right? Then again, isn't all of this part of a game? Aren't games meant to challenge players and reward them for success?

    Take Pokémon GO for instance. It was a global success from launch. Now what if it were called, "Pokémon Don't-GO-Anywhere-Because-We-Will-Give-You-Everything-In-One-Simple-Download"? Would that hypothetical game be "engaging enough to not need big 'external' incentives"? Clearly incentives form an integral part of game design in today's industry, because it's what players have grown accustomed to expect. If Horizon 4 released every car for the entire year up front for the "best interest of all the players", then how many people would play it as religiously as they do today until Horizon 5 were released? Not as much. So I'd say there's probably something inherently wrong with the game because "if you design a game properly, the game itself is engaging enough to not need big 'external' incentives for people to play it."

    So 'The Trial' is bad game design by your standard of people wanting to "participate in them, not (just) because they want the prize at the end." I participate in the 'The Trial' many times after winning the prize. Others on this Forum do the same as well. As I said in the past, it is the one item on the Playlist that I look forward to each week. When I started Horizon 4, I was an offline player for months. I didn't even know about 'The Trial'. In fact, I couldn't even play it if I wanted to back then. Eventually I read something about the Apollo I.E. coming to Horizon 4 and how it required online play. I became an Xbox Live Gold subscriber at that point. I only planned to stay a subscriber for one month. After winning the Apollo I.E. Trial, I found that experience to be more fun than anything else in the game. In fact, had it not been for that Apollo I.E., I would never have experienced Horizon 4 MP racing, which is a completely different experience than racing against the AI. I liked Horizon more for playing online than I did as an offline player. Racing against and with other human beings is what helped me to improve my racing skills ten-fold over the predictability and monotony of AI races offline. Clearly 'The Trial' is bad game design by nature, so I would simply ask you: "What would you do to improve the design of 'The Trial' so that people would want to play it more without being rewarded for it?"


    Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
    Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
    I don't think that you can really demand anything more than that from PG simply because you've chosen to do less for their "engagement metrics" than other players.

    I've got over 300 hours in the game since launch. If that's not an engaged player, then what is?

    That's an impressive number there. However, how does that one figure explain your online play? Frankly, it doesn't, because it's just one data point. You were correct when you originally described it as "engagement metrics" because it is a culmination of many data points -- in other words, "metrics" is plural. However, your offline activity number doesn't provide any useful information to how you've been spending your time online. Let's take 'The Trial' for instance, what sort of information would be useful to PG? How about the number of attempts, the number of wins, and the total amount of time spent there. That sort of data is helpful to those designing future Trials because it lets the devs know whether or not they're making it too difficult or too easy, and lets them know if it's interesting enough to get players coming back for another round or two. . . for fun. The online metrics over time will tell them if they're succeeding with each update they release. 300 hours of offline play doesn't tell them any of that.


    Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
    Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
    A policy of putting exclusive cars into the 50% Seasonal Playlist slot or the Festival Playlist is a much better way of ensuring that people like yourself aren't permanently left out of the game.

    The existence of such a policy is a persistent fiction backed by no evidence in favor and examples to the contrary (see the recent return of the 917 LH, or the upcoming return of the ZR2, both of which require multiplayer).

    I find it quite ironic that you've accused me in the past of misrepresenting your words, yet you've conveniently done that yourself right here. So let me reiterate what I wrote in the proper context (highlighted):
    Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
    I agree that offline players, such as yourself, should eventually have access to the same cars that are made available to online players of the standard product. However, if your access to those vehicles is delayed, then so be it. I don't think that you can really demand anything more than that from PG simply because you've chosen to do less for their "engagement metrics" than other players.

    If there's any fault on PG's part, then it's that they've overlooked the fact that some players can't get cars because they're "offline" and not because they find the Trial difficult. I don't believe for one second that PG is out to get back anyone who presents any resistance to their plans. My guess is that when they design a Seasonal Playlist, they're testing it on accounts with unlimited access to everything in the game. So it wouldn't surprise me a bit if they forget the fact that offline players can't get to 80% on the Seasonal Playlist when they eventually put a "Trial car" there. They just need to be more aware of what they're doing with the accessibility of rewards when they design a Playlist. A policy of putting exclusive cars into the 50% Seasonal Playlist slot or the Festival Playlist is a much better way of ensuring that people like yourself aren't permanently left out of the game. Either that or make Tommy Bargains a featured car dealer once every three months. Aside from that, you'd need to convince us online players why we shouldn't be playing 'The Trial' if you really want to gain any traction with getting "paid" in Forzathon Points instead of an entire reward car. If you can't, then you're never going to be able to affect the "engagement metrics" enough to prompt PG to change the status quo.

    I never said that a policy like that actually existed. I suggested that PG should make such a policy for the benefit of players such as yourself.


    Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
    Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
    So my apologies if I show very little sympathy to those that dislike online play and are attempting to affect the quality of those features that I'm perpetually paying for in addition to the cost of the base product.

    How does giving other players access to content negatively impact your experience?

    Again, yet another misrepresentation of what I wrote. If you carefully read what I reposted to you above, I said: "I agree that offline players, such as yourself, should eventually have access to the same cars that are made available to online players of the standard product. However, if your access to those vehicles is delayed, then so be it."

    If you're asking what the issue is with allowing a competing method of attaining the same reward as 'The Trial' during the same season; it's that it negatively impacts the number of people who'd opt to play 'The Trial'. If you want an example of what that would look like, then simply go to a Forzathon Live event and see how much of a ghost town it can be at times without proper incentivization.


    Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post
    Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
    Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
    Dude, you can have your Trial without the need to have newly added cars as prizes. That's the point we're trying to make.

    Dude, you've totally missed the point that I made to @Lowe0. It's not about having "my" Trial or a Trial. Simply go to unranked MP and see how busy it is there. Then go to the Trial. That's the difference in quality that a desired incentive produces.

    See "Nudge Theory":
    Originally Posted by: Lowe0 Go to Quoted Post

    Nudging people into modes they don't want to play is the opposite of encouraging quality gameplay. It encourages them to idle, tapping the controller occasionally to evade the kick mechanism, until by chance they win.

    Again: I'm talking about the participation numbers in 'The Trial' and how incentives improve that over non-incentivized events like unranked MP or even the current state of Forzathon Live. I'm not talking about your idealized vision of game design.

    Edited by user Friday, November 22, 2019 1:28:59 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

    Rank: R-Class Racing License
     2 users liked this post.
    #95 Posted : Friday, November 22, 2019 2:00:54 AM(UTC)
    @seanbil

    I ain't quoting that. I get what you say. But IMO there are two important reasons why PG has made the decision to add exclusive rewards to multiplayer:

    1) Boost engagement stats, which is the most obvious. It's worth noting that the Forza Motorsport community was very vocal against such antics. In fact, my first experience in Leagues was nothing short of a disaster, it took until Rank 3 until I found good contact racing. That's why in FM7 all the cars were unlocked. However, FM7 needed it, because it sold less than FM6 even though it was on the PC as well as the Xbox One. It had a very bad launch, competition from FH3 and the ghost of FM6 looming over it. FH4 on the other hand has 12+ million users who have played the game at some point and does not need such incentives since it's widely regarded as an excellent game and, in fact, among the best-rated AAA games in the last 14 months.

    2) This one I think people don't realize. PG, or Microsoft, no idea who, but someone in there, is enamored with the concept of "everything is cool when you're part of a team", as sung in the Lego expansion. Someone wants to make team-based activities the core of the game, even at the cost of public opinion, and more, these activities must be the ones they created. But their concept is flawed on many, many levels:

    - Most people don't want to team up with randies, especially when teammates are among the grievers (happened to me more than once). You can do Trials as many times as you want and people who don't need/want the prizes will exploit this.

    - Trials and PGGs require too large a group of players taking into account the size of most convoys. If I wish to do the Trial with my own friends, all six of us need to be online at the same time. Not even on weekends this is possible. Maybe if we were all 13-years-old or something.

    - People into competitive racing have wholly disregarded team modes. Team Adventure is all but dead after the introduction of FFA, which creates a snowball effect: since it's easier to find lobbies in FFA, people will just play that rather than TA.

    - PGGs are supposed to be purely recreational, since the core of the game is driving/racing, not party games. PGGs are a side activity, even below PR Stunts and Stories in importance. Think Mario Party or the Mini-Games in Pokémon Stadium (the latter of which was not required for completion of the game). The presence of Ranked and Seasonal PGGs as well as prizes awarded for wins in the Seasonals has introduced a competitive element to them, one that was not their original purpose and, depending on the prize awarded, might force players into doing something they care little about or not at all.

    - This is more general but the more I inhabit the internet the less I want to team up with people, yet most gaming companies (even Sony, they're not doing it right now, but wait a couple years) are pushing co-op and competitive multiplayer over single player experiences. It's an interesting paradox in which people are growing far apart due to various differences but are also being pushed into doing things together, much of the time against their will.

    #2 fits the nudge theory on pretty much all accounts, the problem is that a sizeable (and vocal) part of the fanbase is being "nudged" into doing things they don't want to so they can have early and certain access to desirable content. This situation creates unnecessary contempt towards the devs. In fact, now that the game is mature when it comes to features and we're moving on to Year 2, bug fixing should be a priority, but we don't see that... This is a car game and inaccuracies in cars are very important, but they seem to be largely ignored by PG in favor of creating new events for the Playlist, or even unnecessary balancing features such as limiting how many cars/wheelspins you can purchase from the Forzathon Shop.

    Looking back at Year 1 I think we're pretty much in the same position we used to be since there were lots of things that were better in the very first week of the game, but online multiplayer was worse than in FH3. Now it's the opposite, Forzathon Shop is the worst it's ever been, DLC is timed (IMO worse than paid, but then I bought Ultimate), but multiplayer was restored to what it used to be.

    Edited by user Friday, November 22, 2019 2:11:32 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

    May the forced induction be with you.

    Alice >>>>>>>>>> Keira
    Rank: D-Class Racing License
     6 users liked this post.
    #96 Posted : Friday, November 22, 2019 2:07:11 AM(UTC)
    An important thing to understand this discussion is to not mistake popularity for quality. And this is what makes this such a hypothetical discussion.
    It's mostly indy developers who can focus solely on quality without caring about popularity.
    Big game companies don't have this luxury. They need to make a lot of money, so they need a popular game.
    I am not saying that big games generally don't offer quality. I am just saying that they tend to make more concessions on quality to increase popularity.
    Endless leveling, loot boxes (preferably random), unlocks etc. are all mechanics to keep people playing and are not necessarily qualitative improvements.

    And you are right: the incentives make sure more people do the Trial.
    The point I (and I think Lowe0 too) am trying to make is that if they improved the experience of the Trial (which they seem to be doing now... this week was fun) people will play it without a big incentive. I would do a trial like this week's for a Super Wheelspin too.
    The result of a more fun trial will also be that you have less players in it who don't want to do it, which then increases the quality of the game mode even further, attracting maybe even more people.
    In other words: the quality of the Trial would increase. However, that is a gamble.
    The surefire way to get a lot of people in is the carrot on the stick.

    And don't forget: Games are, or at least should be, a form of entertainment.
    Rank: R-Class Racing License
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    #97 Posted : Friday, November 22, 2019 2:13:46 AM(UTC)
    Originally Posted by: Sir iLex Go to Quoted Post
    An important thing to understand this discussion is to not mistake popularity for quality. And this is what makes this such a hypothetical discussion.
    It's mostly indy developers who can focus solely on quality without caring about popularity.
    Big game companies don't have this luxury. They need to make a lot of money, so they need a popular game.
    I am not saying that big games generally don't offer quality. I am just saying that they tend to make more concessions on quality to increase popularity.
    Endless leveling, loot boxes (preferably random), unlocks etc. are all mechanics to keep people playing and are not necessarily qualitative improvements.

    And you are right: the incentives make sure more people do the Trial.
    The point I (and I think Lowe0 too) am trying to make is that if they improved the experience of the Trial (which they seem to be doing now... this week was fun) people will play it without a big incentive. I would do a trial like this week's for a Super Wheelspin too.
    The result of a more fun trial will also be that you have less players in it who don't want to do it, which then increases the quality of the game mode even further, attracting maybe even more people.
    In other words: the quality of the Trial would increase. However, that is a gamble.
    The surefire way to get a lot of people in is the carrot on the stick.

    And don't forget: Games are, or at least should be, a form of entertainment.


    Actually... if an indie developer does not care about popularity, they'll go bankrupt even more quickly! It's the opposite.

    On the Xbox, this popularity usually comes in the form of easy gamerscore points.
    May the forced induction be with you.

    Alice >>>>>>>>>> Keira
    Rank: Racing Permit
     1 user liked this post.
    #98 Posted : Friday, November 22, 2019 2:53:42 AM(UTC)
    Originally Posted by: ManteoMax Go to Quoted Post


    They probably shouldn't follow the name of the car (512 S) with the word hit like they did in the announcement: "When the 512 S hit the track in 1970...". Someone will probably be offended by it - most, like me, will just be amused.
    Rank: C-Class Racing License
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    #99 Posted : Friday, November 22, 2019 6:18:09 AM(UTC)
    Originally Posted by: NightDriver7800 Go to Quoted Post
    @seanbil

    I ain't quoting that. I get what you say. But IMO there are two important reasons why PG has made the decision to add exclusive rewards to multiplayer:


    People should really stop using the term opinion here, what you have is a GUESS, not an opinion.
    Rank: D-Class Racing License
    #100 Posted : Friday, November 22, 2019 7:34:38 AM(UTC)
    Regardless of the details it all comes down to:

    Do you prefer to get sucked into a game because of the actual game or because of advanced psychological trickery.
    I personally prefer the former, although I know I am not immune to the latter, especially when the two are intertwined.
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