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So we're on page 48 of this thread, and aside from one tweak two weeks in to lower the percentage from 100 to 80, what's actually been done to address dissatisfaction? Anything that would suggest that PG is listening to feedback and making changes?

So what do YOU think needs to be done to make it even more easier than it already is
I'm guessing you just want it removed altogether

I haven't played in a while, and I was excited to get back and check out Lego Valley.

I'm sure this has already been discussed, but the idea that I have to play every day each month in order to get the seasonal cars, etc. really turns me off. Some days it's just impossible to get on like when I'm traveling.

I also don't like being forced to grind my online rank.

I know I would be fine not getting the completion bonus cars, and I get wanting to reward players who put in the effort, but not being able to miss a single day just kills it for me.

You don't have to play every day, you can miss multiple days and still get 80%. This has been discussed previously and is why they made changes to it, just for that reason.

Well, yeah, usually when my end users don't like something in the software I make, the first thing they ask me to do is have the change reverted.

I've already said what they should do, numerous times: decouple the events from the rewards, using the perfectly functional currency system that shipped with the game. That way, whether you get a reward has nothing to do with whether you play the game in a specific way, only that you're willing to play and win x FP worth of events for a reward that costs x FP.

so many people wouldn't be happy with that either
will claim they need to grind to get forzathon points
others want them to be just made paid dlc again too
no matter what they do people wont be happy
people these days just want constant hand outs for doing nothing

it's really not that hard to play the game and EARN the rewards for LITTLE effort each week, other wise go to the auction house and use the pointless excessive credits earned to buy the missed cars

Hi,

I've been on the playlist since the beginning but possibly I missed something, is there a way, a legal/authorized way I mean, to get 50% to the next season before the season actually starts ?

or this below is unexpected ? ( second place car )

Not counting upcoming seasonal exclusives, there are four cars I don't own: the Chevrolet ZR2, the Ford Capri FE, the Rossion Q1, and the VW ID-R.

The next time I grind out 16M credits, I can pick up the ID-R. The Rossion is very limited in availability on the AH right now. But the Capri FE? Forget it. There's simply no way I can get it by being a better racer - no matter how fast I am, the only way to get it is to do the blueprint/painting/tuning/photography card. Kind of ridiculous to lock the cars in a driving game behind something other than driving. And there's zero inventory on the AH at any price.

As for effort? I've won every championship in all four disciplines, three-starred every story chapter (incl. Upgrade Heroes) and every PR stunt, on the main map and in both DLCs. Please tell me why, in your view, that isn't effort.

I just don't think it's that crazy to suggest that one's rewards in a driving game should be predicated on how well one drives, rather than their willingness to plug another warm body into the game's social features.

Edited by user Sunday, October 27, 2019 9:14:29 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

They want you to keep playing, this is the new formula. You had a chance to get the Capri in the first festival playlist, season 7. I can't say I like it but this is not going to change. No reason you can't play games and get the Rossion. I took me 9 tries but I got it. Was it frustrating? Yes but eventually you will find quitters or a team that acts like a team. Even having one friend do it with you will help. That's when I completed the games first try with one friend that I could communicate with where we were and pass the crown whatever. I have been able to get 100% since series 9. You can too. That's effort. Usually 3-4 hrs to complete everything. I wish it was more race focused but I think they are more concerned with the number of people playing than having a good racing game. Locking cars behind events accomplishes this. A shame, yes and I really have to think about buying another Horizon title in the future. Most player here seem ok or even like the playlist. I'm afraid we are a minority of players that would rather not deal with the playlist. That's why I do it in one sitting, than it is done and I have a week not to think about it other than dailies with aren't even remotely hard.

Edited by user Sunday, October 27, 2019 10:05:24 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Right now, I have unfinished playthroughs of Modern Warfare and Gears 5, 3 more characters to play through in Borderlands 3, Death Stranding coming in a couple weeks, Jedi Fallen Order a couple weeks later, and have a backlog all the way back to the 90s if I somehow get through all of that. Why would I spend time on a mode I don't enjoy when I have all that to get through?

"Play how you want" used to be the vision statement of Horizon. Why not design the reward loop around that idea?

They don't cause as you have shown every other game has a similar system. Does it belong in a racing game? Of course not. Many may disagree with that but it would require much more effort on their part to keep people interested for an extended time period.

Edited by user Sunday, October 27, 2019 11:16:51 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

As of right now, no,
However, if PG makes a HUGE Mistake in calculating the Overalls, we could see a "all Seasons 50%" Bug.
Also, no that is not unexpected, as people want to get the shiny stuff early, worry about consequences later, Report them.

That's a consequence of our Modern Age, where people have an attention span of 6 Seconds, if not less.

Having now seen all aspects of the Playlist, I think the only changes that I'd make to it is to have a maximum of 3 complete attempts at the seasonal playground games, and 5 complete attempts at 'The Trial' in order to be awarded prizes. I think that the current system might promote unhealthy behaviors in gaming when an award is beyond a player's natural abilities. Having a known grind point allows everyone to plan how much time to set aside for the playlist each week. It also gives everyone an opportunity to complete the events in fewer tries based on skill, while minimizing the possibility of excessive attempts due to bad team chemistry from random matchmaking.

The whole matter of locking cars behind two online events is another issue altogether. TBH, I don't know how else PG could promote online play in a racing game without doing that. As a console player I had to get Xbox Live Gold to play online, and it seemed like a waste at first just to get access to a few cars each week. However, as someone who enjoys racing with/against people rather than AI, it was actually a better deal overall than if cars were released only through paid content. There's been some speculation that Horizon might be going the route of microtransactions in the future. The only way that probably doesn't happen is if it can prove its worth through Game Pass and/or Xbox Live Gold subs. But that's just my guess.

To put things into perspective, the last game I played had special time-limited events where you could earn newly released content if you could prove your skills as a player. These events were only open every-so-often, and in some cases that was once every 12-16 months. During that event you'd be required to play over the course of 9 to 14 days with about three mandatory breaks in between. If you used in-game currency (also purchasable through microtransactions) you could buy more time/attempts at playing for the prize by playing through those break periods. If you were skilled, then you could wait it out and use the remaining "open play" periods to try to earn it without spending any in-game or real currency. During the last 36-48 hours of the event, you'd likely need to play around-the-clock, once every 2-3 hours (depending on the event) where you'd have three free tries to make progress toward earning the prize, and then you'd have to wait another 2-3 hours for three more chances. Alternatively, you could also buy as many opportunities as you'd like through in-game or real currency.

There were many new players who tried to play around the clock during the last two days of the event because they didn't want to spend any real money on it, and didn't have the benefit of having earned a lot of in-game currency over the years. So toward the end of the event, they'd be so exhausted from playing that they'd usually give-in and purchase whatever amount of in-game currency would "buy" them out of their remaining progress for the car. After the event was over, players were offered an opportunity to buy the in-game content using real currency during a period of 24-48 hours. Afterwards, the DLC would be unavailable until the event were re-opened sometime in the future, if at all. As an example, the Apollo I.E. was made available for purchase for 49 euros after its event. Some players spent more than that through microtransactions trying to "earn" it.

Now think back to the Apollo I.E. 'Trial' and compare your experience with that to this other game. If you didn't get the Apollo I.E. from 'The Trial' and got it from the Forzathon Shop instead, then consider: (1) How much time and effort you spent earning Forzathon Points for it; and/or (2) How much real money was spent out-of-pocket to get it from the Forzathon Shop. My guess to the first part is that you spent less time/effort than that other game. As for the second part, I know that you didn't have to search for your wallet.

Take it from me, there are much worse ways to earn new cars for a game than through a weekly Playlist. If you played that other game, then you'd gladly trade the inexperience of some teammates for something that felt like a psychology experiment.

What's so important about online racing that it justifies compromising the game design to promote it?

My guess is that all Xbox Game Developers get some sort of “kick-back” from Microsoft’s Xbox Gold (Online) Subscription Service; this would explain why FH4 is so focused on online play. By default, you are automatically placed in online mode unless you intentionally select “Horizon Solo”. Even then, you’re constantly bugged by the game to play “online”.

The Toxic online racing keeps the casual players engaged where the only rule is crossing the finish line first. Sure, clean racers will suffer, but there are so few of them it really doesn’t matter.

Prizes locked behind online events… seems to make sense. And, if you have to do the event over and over again, well, that just means you’re online longer. Win-Win Scenario.

I don’t think PC users need to subscribe… but that will probably change in the future.

It's not about Gold but about Game pass what ruins the gameplay. I would rather pay for DLC to get new cars than play like a mad.

The other innovation was that brand new cars are unlocked with a week's 50% completion as opposed to 80%.

And PGG and Trial.

Other was difficulty of champs. Still Trial and PGG are there.

They seem to listen to a certain extent, and put the new releases where they're achievable more often than not. At 50%, or behind a single player championship. That seems to help. So that the odd occasion where they're at 80%, or on the Trial, or on PGG, sure, it's annoying, but it's not so bad. Actually, speaking for myself, even the Trial doesn't frustrate me as much lately as it used to, unless it's something insane.

That's true. It's easier now. But I can imagine normal dad who doesn't have too much time as me. I don't have problem with anything but I play the game from the release. It's not fair to them and I don't enjoy the Playlist gameplay at all. But I like Trials but for fun only not for getting rewards.

A racing game in this day and age without the capability to race online against others? Now that's just sacrilege! If you removed it then it would suddenly become the #1 feature request, because it only makes sense that people would want to race others in real-time. It would be like selling TVs without remotes. I mean, how appealing would something like the ForzaRC Invitational be if Forza were nothing more than a glorified version of Pole Position?

Secondly, how is the game design "compromised" for providing early access to content through online play? Something tells me that PG's analytics will tell you a much different story than how you might feel about its design. But don't take my word for it; just go over to unranked adventure and check the active sessions there, and then go to the Trial and play 5 rounds. You'll immediately see the difference in foot traffic, despite how "hated" the Trial is supposed to be.

Finally, what really constitutes "compromised" game design? I'd argue that microtransactions would compromise game design because you then wouldn't be playing a game -- you'd just be buying things. That's called shopping. But eventually you'd find people out there who'd rather do that than earn content in a game that's designed to challenge its players, which is kind of the whole point of playing. . . a game. If not, then why bother?

I didn't suggest removing online play. I suggested making the same rewards available to all players, whether they play offline or online.


I already told you what constitutes compromised game design: you simply look at PG's previously stated vision of "play how you want" and ask if a feature adheres to that vision or not. PG abandoned their previous guiding principle; that's what compromised the design.

Also, you'll note that the solution I proposed was to use the existing Forzathon Points system, not microtransactions. I'm wondering if your misstatement of my argument is accidental or intentional.

In that case, just wait. Rewards that are made available to online players will eventually be made available to offline players. Hence, why I italicized "early" in "early access" in my response to you. Example: Apollo Intenza Emozione was initially offered in Series 9 spring Trial and later made available (twice) in the Forzathon Shop.



I think the problem is that you're conflating the concept of principles and laws so that they're indistinguishable. Regardless, I sort of understand where you're coming from, but I still don't think that the Playlist breaks the vision statement as you suggest. The Trial is a much different challenge because of its intended design being co-op. That is the experience that PG wanted you to have for that specific event. Playing the Trial in solo would effectively corrupt that original design concept and completely change the nature of it. The Trial, being just one element of the Playlist means that you can forgo playing it and wait until its reward becomes available in a future offline event or available through the Forzathon Shop. That, to me, sounds a lot like "play how you want".

I don't think that PG intended for people to be able to change the parameters of in-game design components/rules that actually form the basis of the challenge itself. In other words, I don't think that PG meant for "play how you want" to be interpreted so literally that you should be allowed to bring a hypercar to this season's retro supercar Trial. Scrutinizing the individual parts that form the game's design is the only way for the vision statement to be interpreted so literally, which is what you're essentially doing. The Trial is a co-op event by nature of the challenge. Making the Trial an offline event would effectively be changing the rules of its design. In essence, that would be compromising the game's design based on the designers' original intent!

Similarly, by nature of the event itself, the "Seasonal Games" is a co-op event. Set aside the fact that it's in the Playlist. How do you play that game by yourself? If the guiding principle was "play how you want", then obviously "Seasonal Games" is in violation of the vision statement and should be entirely removed from the game. That's the sort of nonsensical road we can travel if we decide to make a literal interpretation of an overall, guiding principle that was not intended to be law.



We never discussed "Forzathon Points" in any part of our discussion; so there could be no way for me to misstate your argument. The extent of our discussion, since your response above, was the following comment (in its entirety) that you directed at me:

. . . So I brought up the hypothetical example of microtransactions to explain a mechanism that can "compromise" gameplay, for a player as it pertains to "game design". The reason why I brought that up is because the argument of "compromised game design" was rather suspect in the context that you mentioned. So I attempted to make the distinction of what I think constitutes "compromised" game design so I'd have a better understanding of what your position was and vice-versa. Your response better explained to me why you were arguing a violation of the game's design. What I'm trying to express is that the game is the game itself. Therefore, the game design can't be "compromised" for it being the game. Otherwise we could just say that Ms. Pac-Man is compromised game design because it's "different" from Pac-Man. No -- Ms. Pac-Man is the game. It's just a different game.

Apparently my example of microtransactions was still too abstract for the conversation. So a better example of "compromised game design" is what is happening in ranked team adventure where players can help a team win by quitting. That obviously was not the intended game design by PG. Therefore, that aspect of the game's design can be said to be, "compromised".

Your application of the term "compromised game design" is based on an interpretation that allows you to argue for an overhaul of the game so that it meets your preference to not have to participate in certain activities that were meant to enhance a player's experience with, exploration of, and involvement with the game. What you're advocating would effectively remove an entire method of earning rewards; thereby negatively impacting the "play as you want" vision statement.



I think there are a lot of different issues going on here, and the main one being that you're not having any fun with the game. I get that because it took me a long while before I got into FH4. If there's any flaw with the game's design, it's probably that there's a very steep learning curve for beginners. After that it's up to the player to figure out how to get the most out of it. If a player can't ever get to that place where they want to play it, then why bother?

And how is it the fault of PG that you're being prevented from getting to those other games? And why on earth would you grind credits for a VW I.D. R in the Auction House? Just wait for it to become available again as an offline Playlist event. If I played this game the way you did, then I'd hate it too! As I said before, if something's not fun, then either find a better way to play the game or just set it aside for something else that you want to play.

(BTW, the VW I.D. R Trial was so stupidly easy that I even commented on how unrewarding that event felt to me.)