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Rank: A-Class Racing License
#101 Posted : Wednesday, September 11, 2019 9:56:28 AM(UTC)
And where do you come up with there being any changes to the physics modeling? In order for the to be better they had to be changed correct?

Edited by user Wednesday, September 11, 2019 9:57:01 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified


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Rank: B-Class Racing License
#102 Posted : Thursday, September 12, 2019 1:36:45 PM(UTC)
IMO, 7's physics are worse than 6. Forza 4 had more realistic physics than 5, 6, and 7.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#103 Posted : Friday, September 13, 2019 5:06:34 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
IMO, 7's physics are worse than 6. Forza 4 had more realistic physics than 5, 6, and 7.

How are they worse lol?
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#104 Posted : Saturday, September 14, 2019 1:31:14 AM(UTC)
Another thing that needs to return is visible damage to other cars including crumpled panels and smoking engines
Rank: A-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#105 Posted : Monday, September 16, 2019 4:28:28 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
IMO, 7's physics are worse than 6. Forza 4 had more realistic physics than 5, 6, and 7.

How are they worse lol?


Another opinion based on nothing. I have not read in any of the notes any information from them making and updates or changes to the physics. FFB yes, physics to the best of my knowledge have remained unchanged.

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Rank: A-Class Racing License
#106 Posted : Monday, September 16, 2019 5:12:32 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
IMO, 7's physics are worse than 6. Forza 4 had more realistic physics than 5, 6, and 7.

How are they worse lol?


Another opinion based on nothing. I have not read in any of the notes any information from them making and updates or changes to the physics. FFB yes, physics to the best of my knowledge have remained unchanged.


Pretty much this, the core physics and tyre model has remained mostly unchanged since FM4, suspension simulation supposedly was slightly improved on the move to xbox one, and I believe tyre temp/grip was also slightly changed at the same time.

T10 almost always tweak the steering input sensitivity/filters for gamepads from game to game though, which is where I think Alot of people get that opinion of "these physics were better". I'm a strong believer that you shouldn't really be comparing the physics unless your on a wheel and using sim steering. Even then the ffb can have a huge difference to how each game 'feels', you need to be very good at knowing how to remove that from your opinion of the physics
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#107 Posted : Monday, September 16, 2019 11:33:18 AM(UTC)
.

Edited by user Monday, September 16, 2019 11:36:36 AM(UTC)  | Reason: don't want to argue about it

Rank: Driver's License
#108 Posted : Wednesday, September 18, 2019 3:11:24 AM(UTC)
๐Ÿ‘

Car and track list.
The user friendly nature of the game, like being able to choose race length or change cars between races in a series.

๐Ÿ‘Ž

The drivetars.
Presentation is underwhelming, for what the game has to offer.

Edited by user Tuesday, October 8, 2019 1:37:59 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

ALL I WANT FOR CHRISTMAS IS DRIVATAR CUSTOM LIVERIES IN FREE PLAY
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#109 Posted : Friday, September 20, 2019 12:39:08 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Blue028 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
IMO, 7's physics are worse than 6. Forza 4 had more realistic physics than 5, 6, and 7.

How are they worse lol?


Another opinion based on nothing. I have not read in any of the notes any information from them making and updates or changes to the physics. FFB yes, physics to the best of my knowledge have remained unchanged.


Pretty much this, the core physics and tyre model has remained mostly unchanged since FM4, suspension simulation supposedly was slightly improved on the move to xbox one, and I believe tyre temp/grip was also slightly changed at the same time.

T10 almost always tweak the steering input sensitivity/filters for gamepads from game to game though, which is where I think Alot of people get that opinion of "these physics were better". I'm a strong believer that you shouldn't really be comparing the physics unless your on a wheel and using sim steering. Even then the ffb can have a huge difference to how each game 'feels', you need to be very good at knowing how to remove that from your opinion of the physics

Correct, not much has changed since Forza Motorsport 4.

If I'm correct, the suspension was revamped for the next generation, mainly to facilitate open wheel cars like IndyCar and F1. Didn't they also tweak the suspension to accommodate for cars such as the Mercedes Truck and the BMW Issetta? I remember hearing that back in the Forza Motorsport 6 days when they were added. I also heard that when the Morgan 3 wheeler was added to Horizon 3. Though even if they did tweak the suspension, I'm sure that's more or less just for those specific cars and doesn't effect anything else. Though I could be very wrong or misheard. I guess you could class drift suspension as a revamp but that'll only effect cars you have drift suspension on though here's something interesting, according to the Forza Horizon 3 developer files, some cars have 42°+ steering lock which does mean if you use drift suspension, you can actually reduce angle in some cars, that is of course, if Horizon's steering angle carries over to Motorsports which I'd assume it does. They also fixed the magic camber from FM5.

As for tires, they probably get ever so slightly change them year on year. I'd image all they change is the peak friction between compounds or in general and maybe the operating window or how much grip there is at a given temperature. Either way it's nothing major.

Downforce to my knowledge has been simulated the same way forever using what I believe to be "if speed doubles downforce quadruples" though again, I can't be sure on that. What I can be sure on however is that aerodynamic bleed and active aerodynamics aren't simulated and never have been and it's easy to prove. Just take a car with an air brake, turn the braking pressure to 0% and you'll see that the air brake does nothing to show down the car, ergo, it's baked into the physics braking system and is not acting as its own component.

The only way to compare physics from game to game is using a wheel. That is the only way to get the raw input and physics. Comparing the physics on a controller is pointless because of the hidden assists Forza incorporates and the fact they change the filters every year when it comes to the gamepad. What most people assume is a change in physics is actually a change in controller filters. A wheel can only give you the closest feel for what has changed in the physics but the force feedback has an effect on that too so you have to look for certain things to decifer the changes in the physics.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#110 Posted : Friday, September 20, 2019 8:11:05 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Blue028 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
IMO, 7's physics are worse than 6. Forza 4 had more realistic physics than 5, 6, and 7.

How are they worse lol?


Another opinion based on nothing. I have not read in any of the notes any information from them making and updates or changes to the physics. FFB yes, physics to the best of my knowledge have remained unchanged.


Pretty much this, the core physics and tyre model has remained mostly unchanged since FM4, suspension simulation supposedly was slightly improved on the move to xbox one, and I believe tyre temp/grip was also slightly changed at the same time.

T10 almost always tweak the steering input sensitivity/filters for gamepads from game to game though, which is where I think Alot of people get that opinion of "these physics were better". I'm a strong believer that you shouldn't really be comparing the physics unless your on a wheel and using sim steering. Even then the ffb can have a huge difference to how each game 'feels', you need to be very good at knowing how to remove that from your opinion of the physics

Correct, not much has changed since Forza Motorsport 4.

If I'm correct, the suspension was revamped for the next generation, mainly to facilitate open wheel cars like IndyCar and F1. Didn't they also tweak the suspension to accommodate for cars such as the Mercedes Truck and the BMW Issetta? I remember hearing that back in the Forza Motorsport 6 days when they were added. I also heard that when the Morgan 3 wheeler was added to Horizon 3. Though even if they did tweak the suspension, I'm sure that's more or less just for those specific cars and doesn't effect anything else. Though I could be very wrong or misheard. I guess you could class drift suspension as a revamp but that'll only effect cars you have drift suspension on though here's something interesting, according to the Forza Horizon 3 developer files, some cars have 42°+ steering lock which does mean if you use drift suspension, you can actually reduce angle in some cars, that is of course, if Horizon's steering angle carries over to Motorsports which I'd assume it does. They also fixed the magic camber from FM5.

As for tires, they probably get ever so slightly change them year on year. I'd image all they change is the peak friction between compounds or in general and maybe the operating window or how much grip there is at a given temperature. Either way it's nothing major.

Downforce to my knowledge has been simulated the same way forever using what I believe to be "if speed doubles downforce quadruples" though again, I can't be sure on that. What I can be sure on however is that aerodynamic bleed and active aerodynamics aren't simulated and never have been and it's easy to prove. Just take a car with an air brake, turn the braking pressure to 0% and you'll see that the air brake does nothing to show down the car, ergo, it's baked into the physics braking system and is not acting as its own component.

The only way to compare physics from game to game is using a wheel. That is the only way to get the raw input and physics. Comparing the physics on a controller is pointless because of the hidden assists Forza incorporates and the fact they change the filters every year when it comes to the gamepad. What most people assume is a change in physics is actually a change in controller filters. A wheel can only give you the closest feel for what has changed in the physics but the force feedback has an effect on that too so you have to look for certain things to decifer the changes in the physics.


Why can't you compare a game's physics through a controller? I did just that and feel that PCAR2's physics are far superior. I've tuned the controller to somewhat behave like Forza's, although I'm not using any assists, dampers or aids at all, which is the case with Forza's hidden pad aids.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#111 Posted : Friday, September 20, 2019 8:51:11 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Blue028 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
IMO, 7's physics are worse than 6. Forza 4 had more realistic physics than 5, 6, and 7.

How are they worse lol?


Another opinion based on nothing. I have not read in any of the notes any information from them making and updates or changes to the physics. FFB yes, physics to the best of my knowledge have remained unchanged.


Pretty much this, the core physics and tyre model has remained mostly unchanged since FM4, suspension simulation supposedly was slightly improved on the move to xbox one, and I believe tyre temp/grip was also slightly changed at the same time.

T10 almost always tweak the steering input sensitivity/filters for gamepads from game to game though, which is where I think Alot of people get that opinion of "these physics were better". I'm a strong believer that you shouldn't really be comparing the physics unless your on a wheel and using sim steering. Even then the ffb can have a huge difference to how each game 'feels', you need to be very good at knowing how to remove that from your opinion of the physics

Correct, not much has changed since Forza Motorsport 4.

If I'm correct, the suspension was revamped for the next generation, mainly to facilitate open wheel cars like IndyCar and F1. Didn't they also tweak the suspension to accommodate for cars such as the Mercedes Truck and the BMW Issetta? I remember hearing that back in the Forza Motorsport 6 days when they were added. I also heard that when the Morgan 3 wheeler was added to Horizon 3. Though even if they did tweak the suspension, I'm sure that's more or less just for those specific cars and doesn't effect anything else. Though I could be very wrong or misheard. I guess you could class drift suspension as a revamp but that'll only effect cars you have drift suspension on though here's something interesting, according to the Forza Horizon 3 developer files, some cars have 42°+ steering lock which does mean if you use drift suspension, you can actually reduce angle in some cars, that is of course, if Horizon's steering angle carries over to Motorsports which I'd assume it does. They also fixed the magic camber from FM5.

As for tires, they probably get ever so slightly change them year on year. I'd image all they change is the peak friction between compounds or in general and maybe the operating window or how much grip there is at a given temperature. Either way it's nothing major.

Downforce to my knowledge has been simulated the same way forever using what I believe to be "if speed doubles downforce quadruples" though again, I can't be sure on that. What I can be sure on however is that aerodynamic bleed and active aerodynamics aren't simulated and never have been and it's easy to prove. Just take a car with an air brake, turn the braking pressure to 0% and you'll see that the air brake does nothing to show down the car, ergo, it's baked into the physics braking system and is not acting as its own component.

The only way to compare physics from game to game is using a wheel. That is the only way to get the raw input and physics. Comparing the physics on a controller is pointless because of the hidden assists Forza incorporates and the fact they change the filters every year when it comes to the gamepad. What most people assume is a change in physics is actually a change in controller filters. A wheel can only give you the closest feel for what has changed in the physics but the force feedback has an effect on that too so you have to look for certain things to decifer the changes in the physics.


Why can't you compare a game's physics through a controller? I did just that and feel that PCAR2's physics are far superior. I've tuned the controller to somewhat behave like Forza's, although I'm not using any assists, dampers or aids at all, which is the case with Forza's hidden pad aids.

Because you're not getting raw inputs or physics from a controller. You can compare them but because there's filters and hidden assists, it'll make differentiating between what was changed physics wise or controller wise extremely hard because you're not getting raw inputs or physics and because the filters change from game to game.

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#112 Posted : Friday, September 20, 2019 11:47:14 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Blue028 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
IMO, 7's physics are worse than 6. Forza 4 had more realistic physics than 5, 6, and 7.

How are they worse lol?


Another opinion based on nothing. I have not read in any of the notes any information from them making and updates or changes to the physics. FFB yes, physics to the best of my knowledge have remained unchanged.


Pretty much this, the core physics and tyre model has remained mostly unchanged since FM4, suspension simulation supposedly was slightly improved on the move to xbox one, and I believe tyre temp/grip was also slightly changed at the same time.

T10 almost always tweak the steering input sensitivity/filters for gamepads from game to game though, which is where I think Alot of people get that opinion of "these physics were better". I'm a strong believer that you shouldn't really be comparing the physics unless your on a wheel and using sim steering. Even then the ffb can have a huge difference to how each game 'feels', you need to be very good at knowing how to remove that from your opinion of the physics

Correct, not much has changed since Forza Motorsport 4.

If I'm correct, the suspension was revamped for the next generation, mainly to facilitate open wheel cars like IndyCar and F1. Didn't they also tweak the suspension to accommodate for cars such as the Mercedes Truck and the BMW Issetta? I remember hearing that back in the Forza Motorsport 6 days when they were added. I also heard that when the Morgan 3 wheeler was added to Horizon 3. Though even if they did tweak the suspension, I'm sure that's more or less just for those specific cars and doesn't effect anything else. Though I could be very wrong or misheard. I guess you could class drift suspension as a revamp but that'll only effect cars you have drift suspension on though here's something interesting, according to the Forza Horizon 3 developer files, some cars have 42°+ steering lock which does mean if you use drift suspension, you can actually reduce angle in some cars, that is of course, if Horizon's steering angle carries over to Motorsports which I'd assume it does. They also fixed the magic camber from FM5.

As for tires, they probably get ever so slightly change them year on year. I'd image all they change is the peak friction between compounds or in general and maybe the operating window or how much grip there is at a given temperature. Either way it's nothing major.

Downforce to my knowledge has been simulated the same way forever using what I believe to be "if speed doubles downforce quadruples" though again, I can't be sure on that. What I can be sure on however is that aerodynamic bleed and active aerodynamics aren't simulated and never have been and it's easy to prove. Just take a car with an air brake, turn the braking pressure to 0% and you'll see that the air brake does nothing to show down the car, ergo, it's baked into the physics braking system and is not acting as its own component.

The only way to compare physics from game to game is using a wheel. That is the only way to get the raw input and physics. Comparing the physics on a controller is pointless because of the hidden assists Forza incorporates and the fact they change the filters every year when it comes to the gamepad. What most people assume is a change in physics is actually a change in controller filters. A wheel can only give you the closest feel for what has changed in the physics but the force feedback has an effect on that too so you have to look for certain things to decifer the changes in the physics.


Why can't you compare a game's physics through a controller? I did just that and feel that PCAR2's physics are far superior. I've tuned the controller to somewhat behave like Forza's, although I'm not using any assists, dampers or aids at all, which is the case with Forza's hidden pad aids.

Because you're not getting raw inputs or physics from a controller. You can compare them but because there's filters and hidden assists, it'll make differentiating between what was changed physics wise or controller wise extremely hard because you're not getting raw inputs or physics and because the filters change from game to game.



Yes, there are hidden assists in Forza pad steering, not PCARS2 pad steering.

Furthermore, Forza's physics model does not entirely remove aids on a wheel *shocker*
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#113 Posted : Saturday, September 21, 2019 1:34:01 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Blue028 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
IMO, 7's physics are worse than 6. Forza 4 had more realistic physics than 5, 6, and 7.

How are they worse lol?


Another opinion based on nothing. I have not read in any of the notes any information from them making and updates or changes to the physics. FFB yes, physics to the best of my knowledge have remained unchanged.


Pretty much this, the core physics and tyre model has remained mostly unchanged since FM4, suspension simulation supposedly was slightly improved on the move to xbox one, and I believe tyre temp/grip was also slightly changed at the same time.

T10 almost always tweak the steering input sensitivity/filters for gamepads from game to game though, which is where I think Alot of people get that opinion of "these physics were better". I'm a strong believer that you shouldn't really be comparing the physics unless your on a wheel and using sim steering. Even then the ffb can have a huge difference to how each game 'feels', you need to be very good at knowing how to remove that from your opinion of the physics

Correct, not much has changed since Forza Motorsport 4.

If I'm correct, the suspension was revamped for the next generation, mainly to facilitate open wheel cars like IndyCar and F1. Didn't they also tweak the suspension to accommodate for cars such as the Mercedes Truck and the BMW Issetta? I remember hearing that back in the Forza Motorsport 6 days when they were added. I also heard that when the Morgan 3 wheeler was added to Horizon 3. Though even if they did tweak the suspension, I'm sure that's more or less just for those specific cars and doesn't effect anything else. Though I could be very wrong or misheard. I guess you could class drift suspension as a revamp but that'll only effect cars you have drift suspension on though here's something interesting, according to the Forza Horizon 3 developer files, some cars have 42°+ steering lock which does mean if you use drift suspension, you can actually reduce angle in some cars, that is of course, if Horizon's steering angle carries over to Motorsports which I'd assume it does. They also fixed the magic camber from FM5.

As for tires, they probably get ever so slightly change them year on year. I'd image all they change is the peak friction between compounds or in general and maybe the operating window or how much grip there is at a given temperature. Either way it's nothing major.

Downforce to my knowledge has been simulated the same way forever using what I believe to be "if speed doubles downforce quadruples" though again, I can't be sure on that. What I can be sure on however is that aerodynamic bleed and active aerodynamics aren't simulated and never have been and it's easy to prove. Just take a car with an air brake, turn the braking pressure to 0% and you'll see that the air brake does nothing to show down the car, ergo, it's baked into the physics braking system and is not acting as its own component.

The only way to compare physics from game to game is using a wheel. That is the only way to get the raw input and physics. Comparing the physics on a controller is pointless because of the hidden assists Forza incorporates and the fact they change the filters every year when it comes to the gamepad. What most people assume is a change in physics is actually a change in controller filters. A wheel can only give you the closest feel for what has changed in the physics but the force feedback has an effect on that too so you have to look for certain things to decifer the changes in the physics.


Why can't you compare a game's physics through a controller? I did just that and feel that PCAR2's physics are far superior. I've tuned the controller to somewhat behave like Forza's, although I'm not using any assists, dampers or aids at all, which is the case with Forza's hidden pad aids.

Because you're not getting raw inputs or physics from a controller. You can compare them but because there's filters and hidden assists, it'll make differentiating between what was changed physics wise or controller wise extremely hard because you're not getting raw inputs or physics and because the filters change from game to game.



Yes, there are hidden assists in Forza pad steering, not PCARS2 pad steering.

Furthermore, Forza's physics model does not entirely remove aids on a wheel *shocker*


To clarify, I'm not suing its hard to compare forza to other titles, I'm saying it's tough to compare Forza to it's previous titles.

And yes a wheel with Forza does completely remove all aids on a wheel if 'Simulation Steering' is on. Then you get raw inputs with no hidden aids. There is an option to turn on controller filters for the wheel but I can't understand why one would do that.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#114 Posted : Saturday, September 21, 2019 3:41:50 AM(UTC)
Interesting...

It's too bad that sim steering does not remove aids on a controller. The steering feels so loose and quick when you loose grip and start to countersteer - but feels stiff and restricted when you're trying to turn hard and hit that apex at just the right angle. This I cannot understand at all - because the braking is apparently tied to steering in Forza's pad steering. How odd - braking would give you better front wheel bite you'd think, but the driver actually stops steering mid-corner even if you lightly dab the brakes.

They should honestly do away with this speed sensitive/peak friction aid on pad. It's downright silly and makes the game more arcady than it has to be.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#115 Posted : Saturday, September 21, 2019 2:37:10 PM(UTC)
I think % of outer front peak friction should continue to be a factor in the final steering output on gamepad, but there needs to be other references in the calculation too, including rear outer peak friction, and vehicle yaw moment/rate. Gamepad steering should be capable of balancing the car in oversteer with better precision and predictability.

The arcadey feel comes from the yaw damper and roll damper. It's perfectly ok to draw from variables like that to determine final steering output on gamepad. It's not ok to override the core physics with arbitrary forces, or (at least, not nearly this much) player-input-relative forces. I don't want 1:1 analog-stick-as-wheel input, and I also don't want to play God. I just want to drive the car.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#116 Posted : Sunday, September 22, 2019 2:32:35 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
I think % of outer front peak friction should continue to be a factor in the final steering output on gamepad, but there needs to be other references in the calculation too, including rear outer peak friction, and vehicle yaw moment/rate. Gamepad steering should be capable of balancing the car in oversteer with better precision and predictability.

The arcadey feel comes from the yaw damper and roll damper. It's perfectly ok to draw from variables like that to determine final steering output on gamepad. It's not ok to override the core physics with arbitrary forces, or (at least, not nearly this much) player-input-relative forces. I don't want 1:1 analog-stick-as-wheel input, and I also don't want to play God. I just want to drive the car.


Yaw damper and roll damper - yeah, you nailed it. This is why I feel my car's nose isn't turning and pointing to the apex like it should or that there isn't enough bodyroll even though I'm turning really hard.

In PCARS2 (controller), you can feel yaw and bodyroll very well, not just in the way the car reacts but also in replays when you see it changing direction and working hard on its suspension. Cars in Forza feel like they are sometimes "on rails" and have too many dampening forces acting on them. The suspension movement or turning/yaw doesn't quite feel right. It's like the game says to you: "ah, ah, ah - that's as far as you're going fella, no more yaw or bodyroll for you then".

Edited by user Sunday, September 22, 2019 2:40:49 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#117 Posted : Sunday, September 22, 2019 6:03:53 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
I think % of outer front peak friction should continue to be a factor in the final steering output on gamepad, but there needs to be other references in the calculation too, including rear outer peak friction, and vehicle yaw moment/rate. Gamepad steering should be capable of balancing the car in oversteer with better precision and predictability.

The arcadey feel comes from the yaw damper and roll damper. It's perfectly ok to draw from variables like that to determine final steering output on gamepad. It's not ok to override the core physics with arbitrary forces, or (at least, not nearly this much) player-input-relative forces. I don't want 1:1 analog-stick-as-wheel input, and I also don't want to play God. I just want to drive the car.


Yaw damper and roll damper - yeah, you nailed it. This is why I feel my car's nose isn't turning and pointing to the apex like it should or that there isn't enough bodyroll even though I'm turning really hard.

The stiffness during corners is due to the tire changes (narrowed optimal slipangle) which mostly occurred between FM4 and FM5. I believe this was to "enhance" the gamepad driving experience, as an quick fix rather than comprehensively rewriting the steering algorithm.

Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
In PCARS2 (controller), you can feel yaw and bodyroll very well, not just in the way the car reacts but also in replays when you see it changing direction and working hard on its suspension. Cars in Forza feel like they are sometimes "on rails" and have too many dampening forces acting on them. The suspension movement or turning/yaw doesn't quite feel right. It's like the game says to you: "ah, ah, ah - that's as far as you're going fella, no more yaw or bodyroll for you then".

I feel the rails, all the time. The newer Gran Turismos feel on-rails, but it's a responsive rail, fun to play with. Forza's rail is it's own worst enemy. It undermines the suspension's attempts to support the car and regulate tire load.

Assuming it's intended purpose is to "improve drivability", the irony of the roll damper is, it reduces the ability of the suspension to regulate tire loads, harming drivability. It might simply be that the core car configs have unnaturally high z-axis inertia values, because I felt it the same on wheel sim steering as gamepad sim steering.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#118 Posted : Sunday, September 22, 2019 7:47:20 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
I think % of outer front peak friction should continue to be a factor in the final steering output on gamepad, but there needs to be other references in the calculation too, including rear outer peak friction, and vehicle yaw moment/rate. Gamepad steering should be capable of balancing the car in oversteer with better precision and predictability.

The arcadey feel comes from the yaw damper and roll damper. It's perfectly ok to draw from variables like that to determine final steering output on gamepad. It's not ok to override the core physics with arbitrary forces, or (at least, not nearly this much) player-input-relative forces. I don't want 1:1 analog-stick-as-wheel input, and I also don't want to play God. I just want to drive the car.


Yaw damper and roll damper - yeah, you nailed it. This is why I feel my car's nose isn't turning and pointing to the apex like it should or that there isn't enough bodyroll even though I'm turning really hard.

The stiffness during corners is due to the tire changes (narrowed optimal slipangle) which mostly occurred between FM4 and FM5. I believe this was to "enhance" the gamepad driving experience, as an quick fix rather than comprehensively rewriting the steering algorithm.

Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
In PCARS2 (controller), you can feel yaw and bodyroll very well, not just in the way the car reacts but also in replays when you see it changing direction and working hard on its suspension. Cars in Forza feel like they are sometimes "on rails" and have too many dampening forces acting on them. The suspension movement or turning/yaw doesn't quite feel right. It's like the game says to you: "ah, ah, ah - that's as far as you're going fella, no more yaw or bodyroll for you then".

I feel the rails, all the time. The newer Gran Turismos feel on-rails, but it's a responsive rail, fun to play with. Forza's rail is it's own worst enemy. It undermines the suspension's attempts to support the car and regulate tire load.

Assuming it's intended purpose is to "improve drivability", the irony of the roll damper is, it reduces the ability of the suspension to regulate tire loads, harming drivability. It might simply be that the core car configs have unnaturally high z-axis inertia values, because I felt it the same on wheel sim steering as gamepad sim steering.


Exactly - they need to improve their core physics model to make the driving more nuanced and unforgiving. Even the best gaming wheel will not make Forza like a proper driving game or simulator - because, well... it isn't.

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#119 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2019 2:54:05 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Exactly - they need to improve their core physics model to make the driving more nuanced and unforgiving. Even the best gaming wheel will not make Forza like a proper driving game or simulator - because, well... it isn't.

Like FM4 tires? Which were great. I think those with FM7 FFB would be close to perfect. Re-worked gamepad steering for better limit and oversteer behavior, faster and cleaner feeling. Maybe some fine tire tweaks for different compounds and aspect ratios, widths, surfaces.. nothing major like how different they are in FM7.

Not sure why you want it to be more unforgiving though..

Edited by user Monday, September 23, 2019 2:55:34 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#120 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2019 12:58:59 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
I think % of outer front peak friction should continue to be a factor in the final steering output on gamepad, but there needs to be other references in the calculation too, including rear outer peak friction, and vehicle yaw moment/rate. Gamepad steering should be capable of balancing the car in oversteer with better precision and predictability.

The arcadey feel comes from the yaw damper and roll damper. It's perfectly ok to draw from variables like that to determine final steering output on gamepad. It's not ok to override the core physics with arbitrary forces, or (at least, not nearly this much) player-input-relative forces. I don't want 1:1 analog-stick-as-wheel input, and I also don't want to play God. I just want to drive the car.

Lot of misconceptions and contradictions here:

1. THERE IS NO YAW DAMPER. There is no "arbitrary force" that controls the yaw of the car on controller when using simulation steering. IT IS ONLY PRESENT ON NORMAL STEERING.

"The Normal steering assist may make FFB feel โ€œsharperโ€ because it influences the yaw inertia of the car to help maintain control during rapid lock-to-lock steering situations. This makes the car somewhat less agile than with Simulation steering, but also more stable."

"There are multiple systems layered together to create Normal steering. Some of these layers alter inputs where some of these layers alter the vehicle dynamics. Simulation Steering turns these systems off. The input layers of these systems are turned off any time you use a wheel, regardless of the steering setting."

2. You steer the car from the front wheels, not the rear wheels. Yaw, momentum, rate, pitch and peak friction of the rear tires SHOULD NOT influence what the front tires are doing! It's pointless. You say you don't like "arbitrary forces" to override the physics but all you're doing with this solution is doing the exact same thing with steering angle. You're overriding the user and taking away engagement, control, skill and speed. It won't make the cars easier to drive and more balanced NORMAL STEERING IS LITERALLY FOR THAT ALREADY. All you've done is create another version of normal steering but actually worse because you're taking into account rear grip. You're literally making the rear of the car dictate what the front is doing. It won't decrease lap times, it won't increase control and comfort, all it'll do is artificially understeer the car when the rear kicks loose or goes over 100% peak friction. Any hint of oversteer and you'd understeer. The game would just feel even more on rails and even more restrictive.

The best system is what we have in place now and that's to give the user maximum grip and control at the front of the car while not being able to abuse a controller's clear advantage of lock to lock speed. We do not need to take away control of the rear of the car. That's disastrous.

Now I do however agree with opencamswrx and believe an option to remove all controller filters and be left with the raw physics should indeed be an option, though that will just make the car harder and slower to drive but nevertheless out should be an option.
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#121 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:04:36 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
You're literally making the rear of the car dictate what the front is doing. It won't decrease lap times, it won't increase control and comfort, all it'll do is artificially understeer the car when the rear kicks loose or goes over 100% peak friction. Any hint of oversteer and you'd understeer. The game would just feel even more on rails and even more restrictive.


Then don't code it like that. Currently it's "any hint of oversteer and you oversteer" (lose time from overcorrection). There's a middle ground to be explored.

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#122 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2019 5:48:02 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Interesting...

This I cannot understand at all - because the braking is apparently tied to steering in Forza's pad steering. How odd - braking would give you better front wheel bite you'd think, but the driver actually stops steering mid-corner even if you lightly dab the brakes.


This is correct, braking does not give you a better bite at all it has a high chance of locking up because you are exerting the grip anyways, what braking mid corner will do is shift more weight forward especially to the outside front corner. The only reason this may give you any increase in grip is because that weight adds pressure to the wheel making the wheel deform more and slightly increasing the contact patch. This is very minimal and likely wont do what u are asking it to do. However braking depending on bias may adjust your balance and swing the rear of the car around a little. The other thing that happens and this is the most beneficial portion is when you dab the brake in the corner it slows the car down, slowing the car down should put u under peak grip and allow the fronts to gain more grip upon releasing the brakes.

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#123 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2019 1:13:37 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
You're literally making the rear of the car dictate what the front is doing. It won't decrease lap times, it won't increase control and comfort, all it'll do is artificially understeer the car when the rear kicks loose or goes over 100% peak friction. Any hint of oversteer and you'd understeer. The game would just feel even more on rails and even more restrictive.


Then don't code it like that. Currently it's "any hint of oversteer and you oversteer" (lose time from overcorrection). There's a middle ground to be explored.


No.
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#124 Posted : Wednesday, September 25, 2019 5:19:21 AM(UTC)
Evans right, its obviously not like that seeing as how the majority of top times are set with a controller. You either need to refine your tunes based on forzas tuning options (not real life) and change how you are driving. Forza is quite easy to be competitive in with a pad. Even if you don't enjoy the filters set on a pad they are super easy compared to most other games and are far more competitive than most driving games. I see you guys talking about pcars a lot but i think one of the reasons that pcars comes up so often and is acceptable on a pad is because the physics allow for overdriving and overdriving is pcars imo is the quickest way to drive. I recently redownloaded pcars 2 ran about 12 laps and couldn't for the life of me get the car to spin out and had to completely adjust my driving from what i was used to in iracing to be super aggressive on throttle and brakes and pushing through corners (all 3 of which would result in instant death on iracing) before my lap times started really falling. Shortly after that i uninstalled the game again because I dont enjoy driving that way.

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#125 Posted : Thursday, September 26, 2019 12:23:09 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Interesting...

This I cannot understand at all - because the braking is apparently tied to steering in Forza's pad steering. How odd - braking would give you better front wheel bite you'd think, but the driver actually stops steering mid-corner even if you lightly dab the brakes.


This is correct, braking does not give you a better bite at all it has a high chance of locking up because you are exerting the grip anyways, what braking mid corner will do is shift more weight forward especially to the outside front corner. The only reason this may give you any increase in grip is because that weight adds pressure to the wheel making the wheel deform more and slightly increasing the contact patch. This is very minimal and likely wont do what u are asking it to do. However braking depending on bias may adjust your balance and swing the rear of the car around a little. The other thing that happens and this is the most beneficial portion is when you dab the brake in the corner it slows the car down, slowing the car down should put u under peak grip and allow the fronts to gain more grip upon releasing the brakes.


No, that's not what I was getting at. If I'm even lightly dabbing the brakes, that should hve no bearing on the steering wheel movement, right? My driver immediately stops steering and actually gets ready to countersteer from the animation - as soon as I even feather the brakes.

This is not realistic at all. I've noticed this in all their past FM and FH games. Rally and tarmac drivers feather the brakes all the time mid-corner to hit the apex properly. In Forza this has no effect but in fact, causes your car to understeer more. Totally bizarre.
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