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Rank: Driver's Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#276 Posted : Tuesday, August 6, 2019 9:23:59 AM(UTC)
The AI definitely cheats when it comes to obstacles - if they are far enough ahead of you (but not far enough that you can't see them), they will literally just ghost through the low walls and fences that you have to drive through in Cross Country races. You can easily see this simply by the fact that they drive straight through them, and they are still completely intact when you get there a couple of seconds later.

They also have ridiculous speed and handling in cars that, frankly, should not (and do not, if you are driving them). Seeing an SUV doing 250+ MPH and taking corners like nothing is extremely jarring and nonsensical.

Here's my strategy for basically every race: Ram the AI in the corners, block them from passing after I get into first. That's really the only way you can win, by using cheap tactics like this. I wouldn't call it a fun experience overall, and my alternative is to go get rammed repeatedly in Online Adventure.

Edited by user Tuesday, August 6, 2019 9:28:17 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#277 Posted : Tuesday, August 6, 2019 9:59:16 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
When you pass on the outside and they instantaneously shove you off the road

I have seen that happening on Unbeatable.

@Aquapainter.
I forgot to ask, what difficulty level you used on video?
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#278 Posted : Tuesday, August 6, 2019 10:13:59 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: AFireEternal Go to Quoted Post
The AI definitely cheats when it comes to obstacles - if they are far enough ahead of you (but not far enough that you can't see them), they will literally just ghost through the low walls and fences that you have to drive through in Cross Country races. You can easily see this simply by the fact that they drive straight through them, and they are still completely intact when you get there a couple of seconds later.

They also have ridiculous speed and handling in cars that, frankly, should not (and do not, if you are driving them). Seeing an SUV doing 250+ MPH and taking corners like nothing is extremely jarring and nonsensical.

Here's my strategy for basically every race: Ram the AI in the corners, block them from passing after I get into first. That's really the only way you can win, by using cheap tactics like this. I wouldn't call it a fun experience overall, and my alternative is to go get rammed repeatedly in Online Adventure.

What difficulty level?

Cross Country isn't my strongest suite but depending of route and car I usually win with stock vehicle vs. AI on pro without ramming or blocking. I tend to play lower class cars though but just today beat the Marathon with stock Mustang 2+2 Fastback, PI C-502 car. I don't recall exactly my winning margin vs Drivatar coming to second place but it was 6 - 9 seconds, that Drivatar was using Renault Alpine A110 PI at stock is C-522. I have actually beaten Drivatars with that car on same route vs. 30 points disadvantage.

I suggest try learning to routes by doing Rivals, look back for what Tilo posted. Start disabling Driving aids excluding braking line, also try doing some races first with lower class cars before going to A+ cars.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#279 Posted : Tuesday, August 6, 2019 11:17:27 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
When you pass on the outside and they instantaneously shove you off the road

I have seen that happening on Unbeatable.

@Aquapainter.
I forgot to ask, what difficulty level you used on video?


It's on Unbeatable, the Car is an S2, and I was trying to keep the cars in the View without racing off to have a boring video. So I was drifting a bit more than usual.

Edited by user Tuesday, August 6, 2019 12:04:13 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: D-Class Racing License
#280 Posted : Tuesday, August 6, 2019 11:21:23 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: AquaPainter168 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
When you pass on the outside and they instantaneously shove you off the road

I have seen that happening on Unbeatable.

@Aquapainter.
I forgot to ask, what difficulty level you used on video?


It's on Unbeatable, the Car is an S2, and I was trying to keep the cars in the View without racing off to have a boring video. So I was drifting a bit more than usual.

Thanks. Drivatar behaviour looks better than I expected and what I have seen and encountered on some Trials.

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#281 Posted : Tuesday, August 6, 2019 11:37:40 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
When you pass on the outside and they instantaneously shove you off the road

I have seen that happening on Unbeatable.


It used to happen a lot, I must be better at knowing where I can sneak past or not. When it happens, a rewind usually fixes it, they act different after a collision>rewind.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#282 Posted : Wednesday, August 7, 2019 11:21:37 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
When you pass on the outside and they instantaneously shove you off the road

I have seen that happening on Unbeatable.


It used to happen a lot, I must be better at knowing where I can sneak past or not. When it happens, a rewind usually fixes it, they act different after a collision>rewind.

For me it has looked that Rewind can reset Drivatars somehow and cause them lose sense of their position on track related to other traffic, they may need to figure out their driving line etc. I'm not sure that some swiping and ramming I have seen on Trials is unintended of buggy behavior. I think it might be possible that it's intended on Unbeatable to be aggressive to hold their position. If, I speculate, that's the case then Rewind doesn't fix them in programming sense, but they "forget" that they were going to side swipe. Rewind in Trials is rarely good idea so can't say much else.
Rank: Racing Permit
#283 Posted : Saturday, August 10, 2019 4:53:24 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: InflnityLlon Go to Quoted Post
https://youtu.be/kvx2y4ZuKbQ

I'm just gonna drop this here in hopes that the devs will watch the video and learn something from it in terms of how difficulty should work in a racing game. Because it does get kind of interesting when an AI can go above it's own top speed even though it shouldn't be able to(even if it has upgrades attached). :)

I'm quite interested about this and our current Drivatars especially regarding custom routes and based from what I have been reading from Reddit there is a trend where some players always set difficulty to Unbeatable on custom routes, because Drivatars can't keep up with player on lower difficulties. I have also noticed that myself that Drivatars aren't doing that well on custom routes and I moved on Pro difficulty months ago.

I understand you are referring to single player content. It would help if you could give more detail, like what difficulty level you in FH4 you are referring to. On Unbeatable difficulty there have been reports from experienced players I consider experts in topic about Caterham (don't recall which one) sometimes going on absurd speeds and one of the buggies having limitless acceleration. Latter one was confirmed bug regarding that specific vehicle. I can't comment more about Unbeatable though.

However what comes to Pro and lower difficulties with exception of couple of oddities I haven't seen that unfair advantage.

I race mostly plain stock vehicles on D - C class and sometimes B and A. Few things come more and more clear going up on difficulty levels.

On higher difficulties not every car in their stock for can win every race and at the same time higher classes S1 and S2 get more difficult. It's IMO higher speeds which leads to having less reaction time, more g-forces and aggressively tuned Drivatars that take advantage of upgrades leads to that stock Porsche or Lambo, whatever, may not be competitive for reasons that have nothing to do Drivatars having unfair advantage. I needed to repeat some race in one of the weekly champs few times because I haven't tuned my Lambo Spyder very well, actually I had given tuning much of the thought at all. On wet surface I was taken by surprise when I didn't get my win by practically fast cruising even with PI disadvantage. So I needed to learn to get those curves right, tuned some of the understeering out, etc. and managed to beat the race.

What happened was that I needed to learn some tricks to beat that race. Video you posted have a segment about how well designed difficulty creates opportunities to learn. What is unclear to me is how it relates to FH4 which for my experience does that?

I don't say Drivatars are flawless or that the PI system is perfect but in the end what matters is time. Maybe some of the blame Drivatar system gets isn't about them, but that game doesn't necessarily communicate how and why player is losing at the best possible manner to players. Making Drivatars slower would give easier wins, but if time needed were say under 4:24,xxx and then you win with time 4:27,xxx what happens that player may get satisfaction for winning, without actually getting any better in the game.

But like I wrote above, game isn't perfect but complains about unfair Drivatars lack concrete evidence and it's difficult to get how they should be improved when these concrete examples are missing.


I'm sorry if I only manage to answer one of your questions in your reply as I'm very tired right now and I'm about to go to bed after this. But anyways, I usually play with the AI on unbeatable most of the time now mainly to see if they will brake away a corner or will floor it through the corner and fly into a tree. Unbeatable AI for some weird reason lose their sense to brake for corners and only know how to go forward and nothing else. They do this because they're programmed to win at all costs. And if it isn't necessary to brake to win the race, the AI will ignore all physics and take a 90 degree corner at over 100mph(160.9kph). Sorry if my grammar isn't good right now, I'm half awake typing this. :(
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#284 Posted : Saturday, August 10, 2019 2:59:02 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
When you pass on the outside and they instantaneously shove you off the road

I have seen that happening on Unbeatable.


It used to happen a lot, I must be better at knowing where I can sneak past or not. When it happens, a rewind usually fixes it, they act different after a collision>rewind.

For me it has looked that Rewind can reset Drivatars somehow and cause them lose sense of their position on track related to other traffic, they may need to figure out their driving line etc. I'm not sure that some swiping and ramming I have seen on Trials is unintended of buggy behavior. I think it might be possible that it's intended on Unbeatable to be aggressive to hold their position. If, I speculate, that's the case then Rewind doesn't fix them in programming sense, but they "forget" that they were going to side swipe. Rewind in Trials is rarely good idea so can't say much else.

I don't think it's a "side swipe". If the player approaches quickly on their inside through a corner, they dodge out of the way to allow the palyer to pass, sometimes tossing themselves or other AI off the track. If the player approaches quickly to pass on the outside of an AI driver, the same logic is applied... the AI dodges outwards... into the player, sometimes sending both the player and offending AI off the track.

Rank: C-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#285 Posted : Saturday, August 10, 2019 5:38:14 PM(UTC)
I'm tired of the ramming and bumping from Ai. I expect that foul driving from real people, but don't make me have to deal with it when racing against Ai.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#286 Posted : Sunday, August 11, 2019 7:44:21 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: InflnityLlon Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: InflnityLlon Go to Quoted Post
https://youtu.be/kvx2y4ZuKbQ

..snip..

But like I wrote above, game isn't perfect but complains about unfair Drivatars lack concrete evidence and it's difficult to get how they should be improved when these concrete examples are missing.


I'm sorry if I only manage to answer one of your questions in your reply as I'm very tired right now and I'm about to go to bed after this. But anyways, I usually play with the AI on unbeatable most of the time now mainly to see if they will brake away a corner or will floor it through the corner and fly into a tree. Unbeatable AI for some weird reason lose their sense to brake for corners and only know how to go forward and nothing else. They do this because they're programmed to win at all costs. And if it isn't necessary to brake to win the race, the AI will ignore all physics and take a 90 degree corner at over 100mph(160.9kph). Sorry if my grammar isn't good right now, I'm half awake typing this. :(

Okay. As I wrote I usually play on Pro with my experience of Unbeatable pretty much limited to weekly Trials. I think it's useful post though for others to compare notes and maybe this can get enough attention to get on developers. Also see my comment below as reply to other post.

BTW I have seen late braking happening on Pro difficulty too, but that was on one custom route and only on one curve. It looked quite weird. I made more than 10 races on that trail, which was very good and Drivatars always did the same in one particular curve.

Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ClawedScroll554 Go to Quoted Post
[quote=NumberlessMath;1118627]When you pass on the outside and they instantaneously shove you off the road

I have seen that happening on Unbeatable.


It used to happen a lot, I must be better at knowing where I can sneak past or not. When it happens, a rewind usually fixes it, they act different after a collision>rewind.

For me it has looked that Rewind can reset Drivatars somehow and cause them lose sense of their position on track related to other traffic, they may need to figure out their driving line etc. I'm not sure that some swiping and ramming I have seen on Trials is unintended of buggy behavior. I think it might be possible that it's intended on Unbeatable to be aggressive to hold their position. If, I speculate, that's the case then Rewind doesn't fix them in programming sense, but they "forget" that they were going to side swipe. Rewind in Trials is rarely good idea so can't say much else.

I don't think it's a "side swipe". If the player approaches quickly on their inside through a corner, they dodge out of the way to allow the palyer to pass, sometimes tossing themselves or other AI off the track. If the player approaches quickly to pass on the outside of an AI driver, the same logic is applied... the AI dodges outwards... into the player, sometimes sending both the player and offending AI off the track.

What you write would makes sense. Could it be timing related? I'm just guessing here but side wipes I have seen on unbeatable have happened oddly fast. Like Drivatar almost side jumping from it's driving line. I recall seeing something like odd staggering happening before that but that's been very rare.
Rank: Driver's Permit
 3 users liked this post.
#287 Posted : Friday, August 30, 2019 10:31:09 AM(UTC)
From my experience on Unbeatable difficulty in Forza Horizon 4, I think that PG have somewhat made the Drivatars way too over-powered on the straights along with their unprecedented extreme cornering abilities, especially on Free-roam Head to Head races and Cross Country events for example.

I would like point out the issues of whats been going on with them.

1. The PI system is a bit unbalanced when racing against them who are on a similar spec, due upgrades are applied.

2. The Drivatar's/AI's vehicle travels at high speed, and swerving the front axle on the straights for extreme cornering abilities.

3. They swerve aggressively across the road cause them to crash and bump into each other, especially starting form the back of the grid on Unbeatable, which makes the racing itself quite frustrating sometimes.

4. When creating a long race on a circuit by increasing a number of laps (20 laps etc), causes the Drivatars to catch up to perform faster lap times than the human player, due to excessive rubber-banding, if the Drivatar crashes or is far behind.

I do like a challenge from Unbeatable AI for certain race events, but unfortunately the strange rubber-banding and constant bumping takes the fun out of it.

All we want is a challenge, not a cheat.

I don't think they would fix the issue, because it would take a lot of coding and scripting to solve it, but however I hope they would in the future for series updates for the game, if they got time to solve it.

Edited by user Friday, August 30, 2019 12:44:04 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
 2 users liked this post.
#288 Posted : Friday, August 30, 2019 4:19:19 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: BombshellBlaze Go to Quoted Post


All we want is a challenge, not a cheat.



Totally agreed. For me this AI behavior is taking a lot of fun out of the game for no good reason. There's multiple things I've noticed...

1.) All the cheating behavior of the AI seems to be amplified in roadracing at S2/X especially on certain courses.

2.) There is always one "super cheater" AI. You'll pass the whole pack then the one super cheater car immediately gets like 3000HP and is glued to the road. Often times it seems like the devs are mocking us by making the super cheater car something ridiculous like a Bugatti Veyron that is glued to the turns on tight course and you are in a mclaren senna, or a mosler, or a mclaren 720 PO (all cars capable of 3.0 lateral G's through tuning). For me its often a Veyron or a TVR Speed 12 AI drivatar that somehow morphs into a rocket ship as soon as I make it to 2nd.

3.) Theres no reason for this. Turn10/PGG have all the driving data they need for 100 games. They know the capability of every single car. They could make the highest difficulty even faster and I wouldnt mind AS LONG AS THE AI STOPS CHEATING.

Bottom line cheating by humans is fairly irritating. But cheating by AI that is programmed by devs who I just gave $100+ to is infuriating and on another level entirely. Theres no reason for this and they are seriously lowering the fun that can be had with this game.

So devs....Fix the AI. Make an even higher level of difficulty and call it "Don Joewon Song"...do whatever you want but please just make the AI stop cheating.

Rank: Driver's Permit
#289 Posted : Saturday, August 31, 2019 2:42:51 AM(UTC)
AI in this game is EASY! I always win on Unbeatable. They brake a lot on corners.

If anything, they need to make it more faster and harder.
Individually Choosing AI Cars Needs To Be A Feature.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#290 Posted : Tuesday, September 3, 2019 2:52:50 PM(UTC)
Another issue I have encountered several times in the beginning of a race is that they bump each other and since we always start on the 7th spot ot thereabouts you can easily become a casualty of their bumper car programming. The current Porrsche Cup, 1st race was an excellent example of that. What aggravates me and I have tried it and succeeded is to crowd a driveatar outside a checkpoint, expecting them to get sent back and loose 10 ranks like it happens to us but noooo they just keep driving as if they passed the miserable checkpoint Only way I found to successfully mess with a Drivatar is to push them into a building or a tree and that just is not a feasible engagement in most races.....

Edited by user Tuesday, September 3, 2019 2:55:19 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#291 Posted : Wednesday, September 4, 2019 10:15:36 AM(UTC)
They need to slow down the AI in first place who relies on his buddies in 2nd and 3rd place to play defanse against the approaching player using some pretty aggressive tactics. I can win a professional race in FM7 but I can't even win a professional race in this game without coming close to blowing an artery or two in my head! SLOW THE GAME DOWN or folks will start ignoring it, as great as it is, as I've already started to.
" If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari. "
- Gilles Villeneuve





Rank: Racing Permit
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#292 Posted : Thursday, September 12, 2019 2:55:13 AM(UTC)
The AI's performance seems to be based on the Suggested Driving Line, while which is usually faulty.

Most of time it's either way below the car's actual performance, or above... And in the latter case, you're done.



And very strong catch-up is applied (extremely obvious when you're in the 2nd place in a solo race), ignoring the car's actual performance.

Seriously if you were making a world record time in that position, the AI would be making some impossible time. (unconditionally faster than you)



And lastly as you all know those Drivatards like to bash & bang... And I'm 100% sure you've tried to fight back, but never succeeded.

By design unassailable... Enjoy?
Rank: Driver's Permit
#293 Posted : Thursday, September 12, 2019 8:37:15 PM(UTC)
Hey y’all, new to fh Forums. Was curious if anyone knows something I can do to fix these drivatars? I play on highly skilled, so that im able to earn the festival playlist vehicles, and i’ve noticed 9 times out of 10, that there is always 1-2 drivatars that are like super glued to the ground. For example,

Im doing the Festival playlist right now for the 04’ Civic and im having trouble with two Canam Side by sides. They can take 60 degree turns on dirt and ashphalt doing 70mph on dirt with no issue and like 100-110 on asphalt. Im driving a Mitsu GTO tuned specifically for handling and decent acceleration and I can never stick a clean turn. I try to match their speed and I go flying off the track, or smash into a wall while they just blow past me like absolutely nothing.

What can I do to change that, other than lowering difficulty so that it doesn’t seem like they’re super glued to the ground. Also how tf can a Focus RS accelerate faster than a Super Car 🤔 This game is frustrating sometimes.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#294 Posted : Friday, September 13, 2019 11:03:00 AM(UTC)
I guess I was lucky because there was only one Can am in the races I did... But like you said, he was super fast.

Luckily, he wasn't as quick as my Mitsubishi GTO on asphalt. So I won the two races that were primarily asphalt based. He would catch up/pull ahead on dirt, but once we hit the tarmac I got ahead. I ended up loosing the dirt circuit to him... by 7 seconds!

The Drag Race was a hard one... I could beat him off the line, but then he had some sort of mid-range boost. Again, I was lucky that once the power in the GTO kicked in, I was just able to pull away. In hindsight, had I tuned my transmission better, I probably wouldn't have had so much trouble.


Sometimes I wrestle with my demons... sometimes, we just snuggle.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#295 Posted : Friday, September 13, 2019 8:51:38 PM(UTC)
Yeah, I had the same issue on the drag race. I had them off the line, then they all of a sudden got a random speed boost. I drafted one of them and was able to keep up and squeeze by for the win by like half a second.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#296 Posted : Monday, September 23, 2019 5:06:19 AM(UTC)
Same here, just did a Rally Event with my A Class optimized Lancer. Perfect Lap without even hit a Drivertar or a Wall, speeding trough corners in perfect Line but suddently the first Place got a new extrem Speedboost allmost out of Nowhere. Tried 4 Times and finally managed it because the Drivertar slided out of corner because of his Boost which came out of Nowhere again.

Yes, the AI is beatable in unbeatable Events but it seems like they have no sliding Wheels or drive under the laws of the inGame Physics. At least there is some kind of Challenge even its unfair.
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