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Rank: C-Class Racing License
#26 Posted : Thursday, September 5, 2019 10:11:29 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post

The game does read the rear tires:
We know this because if you go into a slide, turning into the slide and continuing to turn into the direction of the slide after your car regains control, cancels out friction sensitivity.

Why does it cancel friction sensitivity? The front tires are sensitive to slipangle all the way to 90 degrees, if they are rotating! The exact steering angle is relevant during opposite lock.

Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
You also don't need to base friction sensitivity on rear grip or yaw anyway as it serves no benefit to the player.

Yes, it would. currently any amount of oversteer is a huge loss of control--not realistic, not fast, not fun to push.

Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
As for damping body roll, that's to compensate for the lack of being in control of the car and is to compensate for the relatively twitch steering a controller brings. Though I agree, it would be more challenging without it, cars would probably feel very twitchy

Why not make the steering less twitchy? The point of gamepad integration, as I said before, is to generate effective outputs in real-time based on player input that guide the car as a calm, perceptive, experienced driver might, in a real car. If you don't want Forza to feel like driving a real car, that's fine. I would, which is why I'm trying to drive this point home.

Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
and boat-like without it.

Isn't twitchy the opposite of boaty? Make up your mind.

Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
I'd imagine SIM steering without the damping would be a nightmare and SIM twitch would probably be very pronounced.

Sim twitch is fixed in FM7. You know, when you try to catch a slide and fling the car into a snap spin to the outside, instead. It happened in FM4, FM5, and FM6, but not 7 in my experience.
If anything, sim steering is mind-numbingly slow in FM7. There's a difference between slow, deliberate car control, and ginger, unconfident steering input. Watch the video I shared. Look how controlled the rotation of the car is. Sometimes the steering wheel turns slowly, sometimes he snaps to opposite lock. 100% of the time he's focused on carrying maximum speed.

No clue as to why it cancels friction sensitivity. I assume it's to balance out the controller compared to the wheel. If it didn't cancel out friction sensitivity, small mistakes would go un-punished.

No. Friction sensitive steering based on rear tires or yaw wouldn't offer any additional information to the driver. The whole point of friction sensitive steering is to push the front tires to the limits, not the rears. You can't have the front tires' steering angle controlled by the rear tires friction. You're you're saying its 'unrealistic'. Bruh... you're driving a car on a controller... OF COURSE it's going to be unrealistic because changes and adjustments have to be made to the peripheral or the physics to accommodate the fact you're driving a car with a controller instead of a wheel. And oversteer is a huge loss of control regardless of your peripheral. I don't understand your point at all.

Boaty as in Ricky from side to side. This is why we have a steering buffer and roll damping. Without it, using 100% stick input would literally make the car rock from side to side if you went back and forth. It would literally be the same as turning you wheel to 270° and turning your wheel as fast as you can for literally any input. It would make the car unbelievably twitch and the body roll (hence boaty) feeling would be severe because you'd be going from max input to max input instantaneously.

Sim steering is reduced BECAUSE OF THESE FEATURES. That's literally the point of the whole controller hidden assists. To make it feel more natural. You remove these features and SIM twitch would be ridiculous.


I don't think the opposite lock speed on pad is slow. If anything it's twice as fast as regular steering, instantly allowing you to move the wheels to full lock so you can save the car. The regular left/right steering feels kind of numb and slow by comparison.

Either way, I'm happy with the control in the game feels quite natural and all. But I wish they would give players the option to toggle all assists off and just bear the consequences or whatever.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#27 Posted : Thursday, September 5, 2019 11:28:06 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
No clue as to why it cancels friction sensitivity. I assume it's to balance out the controller compared to the wheel. If it didn't cancel out friction sensitivity, small mistakes would go un-punished.

Forza is for masochists. Got it.

Let me get this straight. You complain about the game's controller implementation being too forgiving and yet when the hassle punishes you for a mistake, you don't like it?
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#28 Posted : Friday, September 6, 2019 12:16:06 AM(UTC)
I said it was poor at handling the car. It uses cheap fixes to compensate for it's simplicity, that neuter the pleasure of driving. If anything, the experience is unforgiving at and beyond the limit.

Edited by user Friday, September 6, 2019 12:29:50 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
#29 Posted : Friday, September 6, 2019 7:08:28 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post

The game does read the rear tires:
We know this because if you go into a slide, turning into the slide and continuing to turn into the direction of the slide after your car regains control, cancels out friction sensitivity.

Why does it cancel friction sensitivity? The front tires are sensitive to slipangle all the way to 90 degrees, if they are rotating! The exact steering angle is relevant during opposite lock.

Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
You also don't need to base friction sensitivity on rear grip or yaw anyway as it serves no benefit to the player.

Yes, it would. currently any amount of oversteer is a huge loss of control--not realistic, not fast, not fun to push.

Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
As for damping body roll, that's to compensate for the lack of being in control of the car and is to compensate for the relatively twitch steering a controller brings. Though I agree, it would be more challenging without it, cars would probably feel very twitchy

Why not make the steering less twitchy? The point of gamepad integration, as I said before, is to generate effective outputs in real-time based on player input that guide the car as a calm, perceptive, experienced driver might, in a real car. If you don't want Forza to feel like driving a real car, that's fine. I would, which is why I'm trying to drive this point home.

Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
and boat-like without it.

Isn't twitchy the opposite of boaty? Make up your mind.

Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
I'd imagine SIM steering without the damping would be a nightmare and SIM twitch would probably be very pronounced.

Sim twitch is fixed in FM7. You know, when you try to catch a slide and fling the car into a snap spin to the outside, instead. It happened in FM4, FM5, and FM6, but not 7 in my experience.
If anything, sim steering is mind-numbingly slow in FM7. There's a difference between slow, deliberate car control, and ginger, unconfident steering input. Watch the video I shared. Look how controlled the rotation of the car is. Sometimes the steering wheel turns slowly, sometimes he snaps to opposite lock. 100% of the time he's focused on carrying maximum speed.

No clue as to why it cancels friction sensitivity. I assume it's to balance out the controller compared to the wheel. If it didn't cancel out friction sensitivity, small mistakes would go un-punished.

No. Friction sensitive steering based on rear tires or yaw wouldn't offer any additional information to the driver. The whole point of friction sensitive steering is to push the front tires to the limits, not the rears. You can't have the front tires' steering angle controlled by the rear tires friction. You're you're saying its 'unrealistic'. Bruh... you're driving a car on a controller... OF COURSE it's going to be unrealistic because changes and adjustments have to be made to the peripheral or the physics to accommodate the fact you're driving a car with a controller instead of a wheel. And oversteer is a huge loss of control regardless of your peripheral. I don't understand your point at all.

Boaty as in Ricky from side to side. This is why we have a steering buffer and roll damping. Without it, using 100% stick input would literally make the car rock from side to side if you went back and forth. It would literally be the same as turning you wheel to 270° and turning your wheel as fast as you can for literally any input. It would make the car unbelievably twitch and the body roll (hence boaty) feeling would be severe because you'd be going from max input to max input instantaneously.

Sim steering is reduced BECAUSE OF THESE FEATURES. That's literally the point of the whole controller hidden assists. To make it feel more natural. You remove these features and SIM twitch would be ridiculous.


I don't think the opposite lock speed on pad is slow. If anything it's twice as fast as regular steering, instantly allowing you to move the wheels to full lock so you can save the car. The regular left/right steering feels kind of numb and slow by comparison.

Either way, I'm happy with the control in the game feels quite natural and all. But I wish they would give players the option to toggle all assists off and just bear the consequences or whatever.


Not true. Due to speed sensitivity you are limited and cant really go lock to lock, so its not faster. With a wheel you can steer beyond what is allowed on pad. So it wouldnt be faster or slower just limited.

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Rank: B-Class Racing License
#30 Posted : Friday, September 6, 2019 7:40:01 AM(UTC)
Counter-steering on gamepad is much faster than off-center steering.
Rank: D-Class Racing License
#31 Posted : Friday, September 6, 2019 12:20:27 PM(UTC)
also, i think alot of the confusion of gamepad steering comes from forza's horrible steering wheel animation.
essentially the game is lying to you because the steering wheel shown on screen is not how your actually turning the steering wheel, so it makes for a very awkward and un-natural feeling steering response.

Assetto Corsa, for example, has steering wheel animation that shows EXACTLY how you are moving the sterring wheel, both in amount of rotation and rate of rotation, so you can literally see, with your own eyes, how much you are turning the wheel, and at what rate you are turning that wheel, so it makes for a very intuitive and natural feeling steering, yes even with the gamepad which is what i use on Assetto.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#32 Posted : Friday, September 6, 2019 12:58:47 PM(UTC)
If Forza showed linear 900 degree wheel rotation, I bet more people would be asking why the gamepad integration is the way it is.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#33 Posted : Friday, September 6, 2019 3:11:57 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: turtleCZ Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
I think he may be referring to the hidden aids and steering restrictions on the pad - aka. speed sensitive steering.

LOL, it's not clear at all. But aids are not hidden. You need to smooth input a lot for normal players. The questing is if addition of settings is a good idea. Without it everybody has the same chance which is important too.


This pretty much explains why the forza series has gone to hell. Catering to lesser skilled players has almost always been the death of a game but it's w/e.

You can tell they have been doing this for FM7. The aids are actually hidden, just doing something as simple as using sim steering proves that they are hidden, example, my cars would always stiffen out during a corner and understeer, with sim steering that problem all but vanished and all I had to worry about from that point was sim twitching.

Everyone should have the same settings and many things should be changed to make the game more fair. The only settings that should be changable are traction control, stability, and the anti-brake locks.

But the anti-brake locks should not give you an advantage if you turn them off because all this extra braking gains you get for turning them off is pure arcade.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
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#34 Posted : Friday, September 6, 2019 3:14:11 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
I said it was poor at handling the car. It uses cheap fixes to compensate for it's simplicity, that neuter the pleasure of driving. If anything, the experience is unforgiving at and beyond the limit.


Pretty much this. Anyone who's actually racing at the limit of their cars knows what this means. If you drive slowly then more power to you. But once you start hitting the limits of your car the horrible game mechanics start to rear their head and you begin to wonder why this game is so unrealistic, especially compared to older forza titles like 3 or 4.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#35 Posted : Friday, September 6, 2019 3:14:42 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Spity0y0mafia Go to Quoted Post
But the anti-brake locks should not give you an advantage if you turn them off because all this extra braking gains you get for turning them off is pure arcade.


They probably did this because the tires are extra unforgiving, and ABS would have been OP if they hadn't. Fixing problems with problems.

Edited by user Friday, September 6, 2019 3:15:13 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#36 Posted : Friday, September 6, 2019 3:18:22 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: turtleCZ Go to Quoted Post
What aid is the biggest problem for you or the video?

Yaw assist. Intelligent steering correction, with respect to yaw and rear grip as well as front grip, could stabilize vehicles equally well, with better response, precision, et cetera, to boot. Aka, more fun.

Let me clear since misconceptions up once and for all:

1. Yaw assist is not just a controller feature. You can toggle it off by selecting 'Simulation Steering'. Yaw assist only affects normal steering which keeps the car in control when going from lock to lock rapidly, as stated on the support site.

In short, when you toggle on 'Simulation Steering' you toggle off yaw affect no matter your peripheral.

2. Yes, Forza has speed and friction sensitive steering. Almost every racing game with controller support does. There's a simple reason for this. A controller joystick is not precise enough to enable you to control fine inputs correctly. The steering in Forza on a controller calculates speed and friction to give you almost 100% peak friction at all times when moving the joystick to max input left or right, essentially meaning you can't really understeer on a controller unless you lose the rear and first.

If Turn 10 removed speed and friction sensitive steering lock, not only would lap times on a controller be slower, not only would consistency be harder but every time you gave the joystick max input, no matter the speed, you'd be giving the car max steering lock which would just make you understeer horrifically at every corner.

3. Forza has a small steering buffer or delay, mainly when transitioning to prevent users abusing the controller's ability to go from 0% input to 100% input instantly. This is to prevent users from going from -100% to + 100% steering lock instantly which would be ridiculously overpowered especially at corners like tight chickens. It's also there to make the cars less twitchy and prevent abuse of input speeds on a controller.

4. Forza does have a side to side body roll assist on a controller. This is to compensate for the lack of actually being in the car. Again, without it, driving would be much harder.

Forza's controller implementation has always been class leading. Why do you think that most if not almost all top leaderboard times are usually dominated by controller users? It's because it's so well implemented and compared to other titles, extremely well balanced compared to the wheel.


Going to have to disagree because forza's wheel control is one of the worst in the industry. The reason why controllers cannot compete on other games is because using the wheel is and should be the dominate choice because of the more precise inputs. The fact that the wheel is not better than the controller does not show dominance but the exact opposite because the wheel is the precise equipment that should be used and should ALWAYS be better than the controller.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#37 Posted : Friday, September 6, 2019 3:21:50 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Spity0y0mafia Go to Quoted Post
But the anti-brake locks should not give you an advantage if you turn them off because all this extra braking gains you get for turning them off is pure arcade.


They probably did this because the tires are extra unforgiving, and ABS would have been OP if they hadn't. Fixing problems with problems.


They've never really implemented this correctly and they've completely screwed over forza 7 by over tweaking everything which is seen with every patch they try to fix something they over do it. Other examples being things like touching the grass being a black hole or causing your car to instantly spin out when that's not how grass works at all. I am not saying that driving on the grass should be remotely similar to driving on the pavement, but driving on the grass right now is beyond reasonable and not acceptable the way it is currently programmed.

Going back to ABS just turning it off is incredibly easy, just as easy as using the clutch which is almost always faster below class S for absolutely no skill to use it whatsoever. That's really really stupid. The clutch does have it's actual advantages but the way it's implemented in forza is obviously wrong and would actually damage if not destroy your tranny and engine.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#38 Posted : Friday, September 6, 2019 3:55:17 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Spity0y0mafia Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
I said it was poor at handling the car. It uses cheap fixes to compensate for it's simplicity, that neuter the pleasure of driving. If anything, the experience is unforgiving at and beyond the limit.


Pretty much this. Anyone who's actually racing at the limit of their cars knows what this means. If you drive slowly then more power to you. But once you start hitting the limits of your car the horrible game mechanics start to rear their head and you begin to wonder why this game is so unrealistic, especially compared to older forza titles like 3 or 4.


4 had better physics than 5 through 7. All it needed was better gamepad integration and force-feedback. T10 should take notes from CarX's Steer Assist system.

Originally Posted by: Spity0y0mafia Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Spity0y0mafia Go to Quoted Post
But the anti-brake locks should not give you an advantage if you turn them off because all this extra braking gains you get for turning them off is pure arcade.


They probably did this because the tires are extra unforgiving, and ABS would have been OP if they hadn't. Fixing problems with problems.


They've never really implemented this correctly and they've completely screwed over forza 7 by over tweaking everything which is seen with every patch they try to fix something they over do it. Other examples being things like touching the grass being a black hole or causing your car to instantly spin out when that's not how grass works at all. I am not saying that driving on the grass should be remotely similar to driving on the pavement, but driving on the grass right now is beyond reasonable and not acceptable the way it is currently programmed.

100

Edited by user Friday, September 6, 2019 3:57:39 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
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#39 Posted : Friday, September 6, 2019 8:26:02 PM(UTC)
You guys are hilarious, forza has the best controller support in the industry, and have had for a long time. If you want to replicate the real world get a wheel. It's perfectly possible to drive like the video in the OP with a wheel or a controller.

Grass works fine as is, tree only issue I have with it are the added 'dig in' rollover effect, a car shouldn't roll over when sliding on grass, the should only happen on dirt/sand. This is a big issue for drifting because if you have big angle on and your rear tyre drops onto the grass the car wants to straighten up HARD, grass shouldn't do that.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
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#40 Posted : Monday, September 9, 2019 1:51:39 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Blue028 Go to Quoted Post
You guys are hilarious, forza has the best controller support in the industry, and have had for a long time. If you want to replicate the real world get a wheel. It's perfectly possible to drive like the video in the OP with a wheel or a controller.

Grass works fine as is, tree only issue I have with it are the added 'dig in' rollover effect, a car shouldn't roll over when sliding on grass, the should only happen on dirt/sand. This is a big issue for drifting because if you have big angle on and your rear tyre drops onto the grass the car wants to straighten up HARD, grass shouldn't do that.

Finally some sense in this thread. Thank you Blue, everything you've said here is damn correct.

Forza's controller support has been industry leading for the best part of a decade and still is industry leading. That's because it was built for controllers since the get go. Only now is Forza finally starting to cater to wheel users with lower FOV cameras, physics based force feedback, per car tuning, etc. Go back to Forza Motorsport 6 on a wheel and it's absolutely horrific in comparison. The controller has always and probably will always be the main focus for the franchise, hence why it's been refined so well over the past 14 years.

As Blue said, if you want to replicate what's seen in the video, you need a wheel. To expect that you can replicate it on a controller is absolute insanity. It will not and cannot ever happen. A controller in itself is not realistic and is not the preferred way to drive a car. If it was we'd all be driving in real life with joysticks and not wheels. This is why these hidden assists are in place and why the controller is so fast, consistent, predictable, rewarding and challenging with a good learning curve. There's only so realistic you can get with a controller before you need to invest in a wheel.

Totally agree with Blue on the 'dig in' effect on grass. On sand and gravel, it makes complete sense. On grass it really doesn't. I'd also add that grass, sand, astro turf, gravel and run-off areas in general should have far less grip then they currently have.

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#41 Posted : Monday, September 9, 2019 3:05:39 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
As Blue said, if you want to replicate what's seen in the video, you need a wheel. To expect that you can replicate it on a controller is absolute insanity. It will not and cannot ever happen. A controller in itself is not realistic and is not the preferred way to drive a car. If it was we'd all be driving in real life with joysticks and not wheels. This is why these hidden assists are in place and why the controller is so fast, consistent, predictable, rewarding and challenging with a good learning curve. There's only so realistic you can get with a controller before you need to invest in a wheel.

CarX steer assist can do it. I'm curious what it could do with Forza's (presumably) superior physics.

Edited by user Monday, September 9, 2019 3:07:18 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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