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Rank: C-Class Racing License
#76 Posted : Friday, August 23, 2019 10:56:49 PM(UTC)
Right, right - thank you for realigning the thread!

Wish there was a way to just copy/paste tail lights from FM6, LOL.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#77 Posted : Saturday, August 24, 2019 2:21:39 AM(UTC)
There are good ideas, I Just don't want them to get buried..
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#78 Posted : Saturday, August 24, 2019 4:23:29 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post

Skyline braking
Alien brake lights on 520S

It is what it is - can't do anything but ignore it and not use chase view I guess. And I was getting mad at my TV for nothing the other day, LOL. I'm sticking to my SDR screen because I believe HDR is a gimmick and a luxury as well.
...
With this being said, there are other HDR games that look nearly just as "pretty" on well-calibrated SDR screens; prime examples being GOW4 and Shadow of TR.


We hear a lot about immersion in gaming these days. We're also accustomed to seeing cars with "red" taillights in daily life that it can be alarming when that state of immersion is broken by something that is different from what we subconsciously expect. So I understand what you're saying about the yellow taillights being a distraction and how it's affecting your enjoyment of the game. The yellow taillights were obviously not intended by T10 to best represent taillights in the real world or else the scenario would be flipped and we would be seeing more cars with yellow taillights in the game rather than just a few. Also, there's no way that T10 would've built an HDR game without it being backwards compatible with SDR screens. The yellow taillights most likely got overlooked in beta because there's a very specific set of circumstances to make them appear on SDR displays.



This isn't sdr specific it's also on hdr tvs.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#79 Posted : Saturday, August 24, 2019 12:13:02 PM(UTC)
From what I understand, the main difference in HDR from SDR is tighter calibration standards. Local dimming can enhance contrast particularly in low-light viewing (which is the standard calibration environment). Wide-gamut is useful for content-creation, but not so much for consumers.

Until the majority of content is mastered to the same consistency as the new panel standards, and ambient-lighting compensation is standard on said panels, subjective experience in terms of vibrancy, accuracy, total quality, will be a roulette*.

Edited by user Saturday, August 24, 2019 12:20:11 PM(UTC)  | Reason: certain gambling games are not forum friendly

Rank: C-Class Racing License
#80 Posted : Saturday, August 24, 2019 10:58:47 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: im2fast4u711 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post

Skyline braking
Alien brake lights on 520S

It is what it is - can't do anything but ignore it and not use chase view I guess. And I was getting mad at my TV for nothing the other day, LOL. I'm sticking to my SDR screen because I believe HDR is a gimmick and a luxury as well.
...
With this being said, there are other HDR games that look nearly just as "pretty" on well-calibrated SDR screens; prime examples being GOW4 and Shadow of TR.


We hear a lot about immersion in gaming these days. We're also accustomed to seeing cars with "red" taillights in daily life that it can be alarming when that state of immersion is broken by something that is different from what we subconsciously expect. So I understand what you're saying about the yellow taillights being a distraction and how it's affecting your enjoyment of the game. The yellow taillights were obviously not intended by T10 to best represent taillights in the real world or else the scenario would be flipped and we would be seeing more cars with yellow taillights in the game rather than just a few. Also, there's no way that T10 would've built an HDR game without it being backwards compatible with SDR screens. The yellow taillights most likely got overlooked in beta because there's a very specific set of circumstances to make them appear on SDR displays.



This isn't sdr specific it's also on hdr tvs.


Yes, I've heard that from multiple HDR owners by now that the tail lights never look right and they too get the overexposed bright yellow brake lights from time to time. Extremely disappointing is the fact how they can leave something like this in a game where every marketing campaign was ultra-focused on 4k/hdr. I don't care about 'heavenly' resolutions or a marketing gimmick like HDR when the tail lights don't even look right. There were 8, 10 and 12-bit panels around way before HDR became a thing - and were all perfectly capable of producing rich, varied and vibrant colors. It's down to game developers not using them effectively.

Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
From what I understand, the main difference in HDR from SDR is tighter calibration standards. Local dimming can enhance contrast particularly in low-light viewing (which is the standard calibration environment). Wide-gamut is useful for content-creation, but not so much for consumers.

Until the majority of content is mastered to the same consistency as the new panel standards, and ambient-lighting compensation is standard on said panels, subjective experience in terms of vibrancy, accuracy, total quality, will be a roulette*.


Precisely - it's irrelevant at this point how good your HDR/SDR screen is, or how well-calibrated it is - it is an inconsistency in the lighting model that they failed to address.

Edited by user Saturday, August 24, 2019 11:03:24 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#81 Posted : Sunday, August 25, 2019 12:36:18 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
From what I understand, the main difference in HDR from SDR is tighter calibration standards. Local dimming can enhance contrast particularly in low-light viewing (which is the standard calibration environment). Wide-gamut is useful for content-creation, but not so much for consumers.

Until the majority of content is mastered to the same consistency as the new panel standards, and ambient-lighting compensation is standard on said panels, subjective experience in terms of vibrancy, accuracy, total quality, will be a roulette*.

Correct, the main difference between a HDR and a SDR display are tighter calibration standards.

A HDR display can simply offer darker blacks without black crush, whiter whites without an over-exposed image and can offer local dimming or a zonal adaptive backlight display. A HDR display can also give you more accurate and vibrant colors compared to an SDR display. However, out of the box almost all displays aren't accurate as they're designed to be eye-catching, vibrant, colorful and are meant to stand out and draw your attention in showrooms.

When it comes to color accuracy however, there is no subjectivity in that. Accuracy is accuracy. The more precise your TV is traking its black, white and colour levels, the better the picture accuracy will be. It'll look more natural.

The benefit of modern TV's are presets. They're a God given gift that most overlook. A simple way of having a good picture for any viewing is to create multiple HDR and SDR presets and switch between them.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#82 Posted : Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:08:38 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: im2fast4u711 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post

Skyline braking
Alien brake lights on 520S

It is what it is - can't do anything but ignore it and not use chase view I guess. And I was getting mad at my TV for nothing the other day, LOL. I'm sticking to my SDR screen because I believe HDR is a gimmick and a luxury as well.
...
With this being said, there are other HDR games that look nearly just as "pretty" on well-calibrated SDR screens; prime examples being GOW4 and Shadow of TR.


We hear a lot about immersion in gaming these days. We're also accustomed to seeing cars with "red" taillights in daily life that it can be alarming when that state of immersion is broken by something that is different from what we subconsciously expect. So I understand what you're saying about the yellow taillights being a distraction and how it's affecting your enjoyment of the game. The yellow taillights were obviously not intended by T10 to best represent taillights in the real world or else the scenario would be flipped and we would be seeing more cars with yellow taillights in the game rather than just a few. Also, there's no way that T10 would've built an HDR game without it being backwards compatible with SDR screens. The yellow taillights most likely got overlooked in beta because there's a very specific set of circumstances to make them appear on SDR displays.



This isn't sdr specific it's also on hdr tvs.


Yes, I've heard that from multiple HDR owners by now that the tail lights never look right and they too get the overexposed bright yellow brake lights from time to time. Extremely disappointing is the fact how they can leave something like this in a game where every marketing campaign was ultra-focused on 4k/hdr. I don't care about 'heavenly' resolutions or a marketing gimmick like HDR when the tail lights don't even look right. There were 8, 10 and 12-bit panels around way before HDR became a thing - and were all perfectly capable of producing rich, varied and vibrant colors. It's down to game developers not using them effectively.

Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
From what I understand, the main difference in HDR from SDR is tighter calibration standards. Local dimming can enhance contrast particularly in low-light viewing (which is the standard calibration environment). Wide-gamut is useful for content-creation, but not so much for consumers.

Until the majority of content is mastered to the same consistency as the new panel standards, and ambient-lighting compensation is standard on said panels, subjective experience in terms of vibrancy, accuracy, total quality, will be a roulette*.


Precisely - it's irrelevant at this point how good your HDR/SDR screen is, or how well-calibrated it is - it is an inconsistency in the lighting model that they failed to address.

Disagree.

The better your display, the more accurately it's calibrated, the better the picture will be. It'll be more accurate, more natural and it'll realign closer to what the developer or movie intended you to see regardless of lighting model inconsistencies.

I still disagree that this is a lighting model inconsistency. Where I live, tail lights and brake lights can appear like that routinely. Perhaps it's the weather conditions where I live as we get a substantial amount of cloud, rain, mist, fog and overall low contrast lighting due to living right next to the sea (around a 5 to 10 minute walk from the ocean). Do I think that Forza perhaps overexaggerates how often you see the effects? Maybe? But this does happen in real life.

Let's not forget that all exterior views are through a camera lense effect in Forza Motorsport 7 which does make sense. This is evident as, especially at night, you can see lense flair and dirt on the lense of the camera.

The overexposure and bloom level is a lighting inconsistency that they can iron out.
Rank: C-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#83 Posted : Sunday, August 25, 2019 3:29:25 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: im2fast4u711 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post

Skyline braking
Alien brake lights on 520S

It is what it is - can't do anything but ignore it and not use chase view I guess. And I was getting mad at my TV for nothing the other day, LOL. I'm sticking to my SDR screen because I believe HDR is a gimmick and a luxury as well.
...
With this being said, there are other HDR games that look nearly just as "pretty" on well-calibrated SDR screens; prime examples being GOW4 and Shadow of TR.


We hear a lot about immersion in gaming these days. We're also accustomed to seeing cars with "red" taillights in daily life that it can be alarming when that state of immersion is broken by something that is different from what we subconsciously expect. So I understand what you're saying about the yellow taillights being a distraction and how it's affecting your enjoyment of the game. The yellow taillights were obviously not intended by T10 to best represent taillights in the real world or else the scenario would be flipped and we would be seeing more cars with yellow taillights in the game rather than just a few. Also, there's no way that T10 would've built an HDR game without it being backwards compatible with SDR screens. The yellow taillights most likely got overlooked in beta because there's a very specific set of circumstances to make them appear on SDR displays.



This isn't sdr specific it's also on hdr tvs.


Yes, I've heard that from multiple HDR owners by now that the tail lights never look right and they too get the overexposed bright yellow brake lights from time to time. Extremely disappointing is the fact how they can leave something like this in a game where every marketing campaign was ultra-focused on 4k/hdr. I don't care about 'heavenly' resolutions or a marketing gimmick like HDR when the tail lights don't even look right. There were 8, 10 and 12-bit panels around way before HDR became a thing - and were all perfectly capable of producing rich, varied and vibrant colors. It's down to game developers not using them effectively.

[quote=NumberlessMath;1121339]From what I understand, the main difference in HDR from SDR is tighter calibration standards. Local dimming can enhance contrast particularly in low-light viewing (which is the standard calibration environment). Wide-gamut is useful for content-creation, but not so much for consumers.

Until the majority of content is mastered to the same consistency as the new panel standards, and ambient-lighting compensation is standard on said panels, subjective experience in terms of vibrancy, accuracy, total quality, will be a roulette*.


Where I live, tail lights and brake lights can appear like that routinely. Perhaps it's the weather conditions where I live as we get a substantial amount of cloud, rain, mist, fog and overall low contrast lighting due to living right next to the sea (around a 5 to 10 minute walk from the ocean). Do I think that Forza perhaps overexaggerates how often you see the effects? Maybe? But this does happen in real life.

Let's not forget that all exterior views are through a camera lense effect in Forza Motorsport 7 which does make sense. This is evident as, especially at night, you can see lense flair and dirt on the lense of the camera.




Really? Tail lights look bright yellow, orange or sometimes white when you are look at a car directly from behind?

Okay, I give up...
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#84 Posted : Sunday, August 25, 2019 10:37:16 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: im2fast4u711 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post

Skyline braking
Alien brake lights on 520S

It is what it is - can't do anything but ignore it and not use chase view I guess. And I was getting mad at my TV for nothing the other day, LOL. I'm sticking to my SDR screen because I believe HDR is a gimmick and a luxury as well.
...
With this being said, there are other HDR games that look nearly just as "pretty" on well-calibrated SDR screens; prime examples being GOW4 and Shadow of TR.


We hear a lot about immersion in gaming these days. We're also accustomed to seeing cars with "red" taillights in daily life that it can be alarming when that state of immersion is broken by something that is different from what we subconsciously expect. So I understand what you're saying about the yellow taillights being a distraction and how it's affecting your enjoyment of the game. The yellow taillights were obviously not intended by T10 to best represent taillights in the real world or else the scenario would be flipped and we would be seeing more cars with yellow taillights in the game rather than just a few. Also, there's no way that T10 would've built an HDR game without it being backwards compatible with SDR screens. The yellow taillights most likely got overlooked in beta because there's a very specific set of circumstances to make them appear on SDR displays.



This isn't sdr specific it's also on hdr tvs.


Yes, I've heard that from multiple HDR owners by now that the tail lights never look right and they too get the overexposed bright yellow brake lights from time to time. Extremely disappointing is the fact how they can leave something like this in a game where every marketing campaign was ultra-focused on 4k/hdr. I don't care about 'heavenly' resolutions or a marketing gimmick like HDR when the tail lights don't even look right. There were 8, 10 and 12-bit panels around way before HDR became a thing - and were all perfectly capable of producing rich, varied and vibrant colors. It's down to game developers not using them effectively.

[quote=NumberlessMath;1121339]From what I understand, the main difference in HDR from SDR is tighter calibration standards. Local dimming can enhance contrast particularly in low-light viewing (which is the standard calibration environment). Wide-gamut is useful for content-creation, but not so much for consumers.

Until the majority of content is mastered to the same consistency as the new panel standards, and ambient-lighting compensation is standard on said panels, subjective experience in terms of vibrancy, accuracy, total quality, will be a roulette*.


Where I live, tail lights and brake lights can appear like that routinely. Perhaps it's the weather conditions where I live as we get a substantial amount of cloud, rain, mist, fog and overall low contrast lighting due to living right next to the sea (around a 5 to 10 minute walk from the ocean). Do I think that Forza perhaps overexaggerates how often you see the effects? Maybe? But this does happen in real life.

Let's not forget that all exterior views are through a camera lense effect in Forza Motorsport 7 which does make sense. This is evident as, especially at night, you can see lense flair and dirt on the lense of the camera.




Really? Tail lights look bright yellow, orange or sometimes white when you are look at a car directly from behind?

Okay, I give up...

You're not getting this are you?

Forza's chase camera is exactly what it says on the tin:

A CAMERA.

There's tonnes of evidence to show this:

1. Change in lighting compared to 1st person views.
2. Certainn flair that does not appear in 1st person views.
3. Dirt and smudge marks that don't appear in 1st person views.

What you're seeing isn't a lighting problem. Third person view is viewed through a camera, not the players eyes hence why they have camera effects.

And yes in the right conditions, lights can appear different colors for multiple reasons.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#85 Posted : Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:04:36 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Where I live, tail lights and brake lights can appear like that routinely. Perhaps it's the weather conditions where I live as we get a substantial amount of cloud, rain, mist, fog and overall low contrast lighting due to living right next to the sea (around a 5 to 10 minute walk from the ocean).

Can you provide evidence? Pictures, video?
Rank: A-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#86 Posted : Sunday, August 25, 2019 7:31:11 PM(UTC)
It's not a lighting issue, certain cars have an inaccurate tail light color. A few have been posted in this thread another that I found was the Mercedes sl65 amg. Most cars are fine and in the scheme of things most in forza means hundreds of cars are normal, just a few are messed up which means it was probably an oversight by whoever made/tested these particular cars. It's not a display problem, it's not in forza horizon 4) and it's certainly not by design because if that was the case all the cars in the game would have these odd colored lights. The fact is while its unfortunate, this is not a game breaking issue and even if it was at this point it's not going to get fixed. I think its time to move on to more constructive discussions unless people want to start compiling a list of cars affected which could aid turn 10 in fixing these cars in the future.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#87 Posted : Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:42:41 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: im2fast4u711 Go to Quoted Post
It's not a lighting issue, certain cars have an inaccurate tail light color. A few have been posted in this thread another that I found was the Mercedes sl65 amg. Most cars are fine and in the scheme of things most in forza means hundreds of cars are normal, just a few are messed up which means it was probably an oversight by whoever made/tested these particular cars. It's not a display problem, it's not in forza horizon 4) and it's certainly not by design because if that was the case all the cars in the game would have these odd colored lights. The fact is while its unfortunate, this is not a game breaking issue and even if it was at this point it's not going to get fixed. I think its time to move on to more constructive discussions unless people want to start compiling a list of cars affected which could aid turn 10 in fixing these cars in the future.

This x 10 ^49
Rank: C-Class Racing License
#88 Posted : Monday, August 26, 2019 12:33:23 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: im2fast4u711 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: seanbil Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post

Skyline braking
Alien brake lights on 520S

It is what it is - can't do anything but ignore it and not use chase view I guess. And I was getting mad at my TV for nothing the other day, LOL. I'm sticking to my SDR screen because I believe HDR is a gimmick and a luxury as well.
...
With this being said, there are other HDR games that look nearly just as "pretty" on well-calibrated SDR screens; prime examples being GOW4 and Shadow of TR.


We hear a lot about immersion in gaming these days. We're also accustomed to seeing cars with "red" taillights in daily life that it can be alarming when that state of immersion is broken by something that is different from what we subconsciously expect. So I understand what you're saying about the yellow taillights being a distraction and how it's affecting your enjoyment of the game. The yellow taillights were obviously not intended by T10 to best represent taillights in the real world or else the scenario would be flipped and we would be seeing more cars with yellow taillights in the game rather than just a few. Also, there's no way that T10 would've built an HDR game without it being backwards compatible with SDR screens. The yellow taillights most likely got overlooked in beta because there's a very specific set of circumstances to make them appear on SDR displays.



This isn't sdr specific it's also on hdr tvs.


Yes, I've heard that from multiple HDR owners by now that the tail lights never look right and they too get the overexposed bright yellow brake lights from time to time. Extremely disappointing is the fact how they can leave something like this in a game where every marketing campaign was ultra-focused on 4k/hdr. I don't care about 'heavenly' resolutions or a marketing gimmick like HDR when the tail lights don't even look right. There were 8, 10 and 12-bit panels around way before HDR became a thing - and were all perfectly capable of producing rich, varied and vibrant colors. It's down to game developers not using them effectively.

Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
From what I understand, the main difference in HDR from SDR is tighter calibration standards. Local dimming can enhance contrast particularly in low-light viewing (which is the standard calibration environment). Wide-gamut is useful for content-creation, but not so much for consumers.

Until the majority of content is mastered to the same consistency as the new panel standards, and ambient-lighting compensation is standard on said panels, subjective experience in terms of vibrancy, accuracy, total quality, will be a roulette*.


Where I live, tail lights and brake lights can appear like that routinely. Perhaps it's the weather conditions where I live as we get a substantial amount of cloud, rain, mist, fog and overall low contrast lighting due to living right next to the sea (around a 5 to 10 minute walk from the ocean). Do I think that Forza perhaps overexaggerates how often you see the effects? Maybe? But this does happen in real life.

Let's not forget that all exterior views are through a camera lense effect in Forza Motorsport 7 which does make sense. This is evident as, especially at night, you can see lense flair and dirt on the lense of the camera.




Really? Tail lights look bright yellow, orange or sometimes white when you are look at a car directly from behind?

Okay, I give up...

You're not getting this are you?

Forza's chase camera is exactly what it says on the tin:

A CAMERA.

There's tonnes of evidence to show this:

1. Change in lighting compared to 1st person views.
2. Certainn flair that does not appear in 1st person views.
3. Dirt and smudge marks that don't appear in 1st person views.

What you're seeing isn't a lighting problem. Third person view is viewed through a camera, not the players eyes hence why they have camera effects.

And yes in the right conditions, lights can appear different colors for multiple reasons.


I believe some factual evidence is being ignored here.

If your theory were correct, then why aren't all cars' tail lights displaying this odd color under specific lighting conditions? Why doesn't FH4 have the same problem? Tail lights look okay in all conditions.

Why don't the red in other HDR games look weird at different times of day/lighting conditions like SOTR, GOW4 and many others? Only the red tail lights is the issue and FM7 specifically is the only game to have it.

I've never seen this so-called effect IRL when looking at cars directly from behind or in movies/TV for that matter. So your theory about looking at the game through a camera lens doesn't add up, sorry.

[quote=im2fast4u711;1121532]It's not a lighting issue, certain cars have an inaccurate tail light color. A few have been posted in this thread another that I found was the Mercedes sl65 amg. Most cars are fine and in the scheme of things most in forza means hundreds of cars are normal, just a few are messed up which means it was probably an oversight by whoever made/tested these particular cars. It's not a display problem, it's not in forza horizon 4) and it's certainly not by design because if that was the case all the cars in the game would have these odd colored lights. The fact is while its unfortunate, this is not a game breaking issue and even if it was at this point it's not going to get fixed. I think its time to move on to more constructive discussions unless people want to start compiling a list of cars affected which could aid turn 10 in fixing these cars in the future.


Well, alright then - here's a list of cars that never look right:

570s
Cinque roadster
458s
LaF
P1
P1 GTR
Skylines before R35 - This list is just a small 'excerpt' of cars that suffer from this problem. There's literally no 'red glow' to the tail lights at night (like in FH4) and during the day, they will look washed out or emit that strange bright yellow glow when lighting is low contrast (Sonoma, Laguna, Maple, Mugello Bathurst, etc. just to name a few)

The problems is not tail light specific either - both new LED tail lights as well as regular pre-90s and pre-80s tail light seem to have this issue. It only shows in cloudy conditions or low contrast conditions. Never at night.

Edited by user Monday, August 26, 2019 12:38:13 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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