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Rank: Racing Permit
#76 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2019 1:01:54 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post

Edit: With that said, i recall someone saying that the iracing guys tend to be snobbish about iracing in comparison to other sims. The above is why. They simply dont look at what they are doing the same and treat it much more seriously. I know there are serious players on forza, gt, f1 etc. But when you are comparing them its makes it harder to look at someone sitting on their couch playing their favorite sim on a tv using a pad in the same light as it is with guys who literally practice for hours on a $10000 setup the same. They also want to believe that their investment was worth their money which is why they believe everything else is garbage. I don't personally feel this way, everything has its strong point and everything its weakness.


I really think there's something to that, and it's nothing new. Hell, this isn't even the first Dave Kaemmer-led game with a playerbase like that: I remember a time in my sim racing life where many of the guy playing Grand Prix Legends looked down their nose at the Gran Turismo crowd, etc. Then, everybody moved over to Live For Speed and then GTR2 and brought that attitude with them. Find the game which garners the reputation of being the most realistic and uncompromising sim, and you'll find the biggest group of snobs. Add thousands of dollars spent in hardware, and what happens is that more than a few are insufferable about the whole thing.

Quote:

In terms of forza my wish was always that a AAA game would make the push for a proper sim title.... it hasnt happened and the more i look into it the less i believe it ever will.


I don't think it will happen either. There's money to be made in simracing, but it's still a niche genre in the end. As I type this, there are 5,688 folks logged onto iRacing, but Steam Charts shows 530,000 playing Counter-Strike GO. I would think that a company like Turn 10 has more to lose by turning Forza Motorsport into a pure sim than it stands to gain, though I've never made a cent in the software business, so take that opinion for what it's worth.

Edited by user Monday, August 12, 2019 1:03:49 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Words man...

Rank: Racing Permit
#77 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2019 1:16:40 PM(UTC)
Gave us a much needed (and obvious) time intervals. 1000 x thank you. If not too much to ask, please make the microscopic font a bit larger.
Rank: Driver's License
#78 Posted : Monday, August 12, 2019 1:34:29 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: AP Colin Girth Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post


In terms of forza my wish was always that a AAA game would make the push for a proper sim title.... it hasnt happened and the more i look into it the less i believe it ever will.


I don't think it will happen either. There's money to be made in simracing, but it's still a niche genre in the end. As I type this, there are 5,688 folks logged onto iRacing, but Steam Charts shows 530,000 playing Counter-Strike GO. I would think that a company like Turn 10 has more to lose by turning Forza Motorsport into a pure sim than it stands to gain, though I've never made a cent in the software business, so take that opinion for what it's worth.


Precisely! The age demographics for racing games probably indicate that "kids" would rather play Mario Kart and Rocket League than a pure racing SIM or even Pole Position. The saying, "Children are our future" is literally true for game publishers. So if another developer is already doing SIM racing better than everyone else, then why would T10 bother going in that direction when the overall numbers don't support that sort of future investment? If the numbers were there and the competing technology were superior to their own, then Microsoft simply would've bought them out years ago. When FH4 goes to Game Pass, and Hot Wheels and Legos show up out of the blue, that's your clue as to the overall temperature of the market. Maybe iRacing and Project CARS are the best examples of SIM racing today. However, the only thing T10 cares about is whether or not the average person powering up his/her console requires that sort of exacting experience to have fun playing Forza. Probably not. Personally, I wouldn't want to play a racing game that frowned upon 3rd person views or game controllers. IMO, T10 is casting its net toward a large, generalized audience that doesn't require anything more than what's provided by the game and console to have an enjoyable experience. So this probably means that FM8 will likely be a visually stunning masterpiece in comparison to its competition but will be functionally "deficient" to the needs of the SIM community. So appreciate Forza Motorsport for what it is and not what it should be, because what's here today could be gone tomorrow.

Rank: S-Class Racing License
#79 Posted : Tuesday, August 13, 2019 12:15:15 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: AP Colin Girth Go to Quoted Post

Learn PCARS2 (on a wheel or pad) and you can become a much better driver IRL. Learn on Forza and try to drive like that in real life - you're either looking at an expensive trip to the hospital or huge insurance premiums - or both!

I can share my pad settings for your PCARS2 lovers if you like, just PM me. I've got the handling down to something very similar to how pad control is on Forza.

Sim racing has been my main hobby for about 25 years now. That's more than plenty and less than some others, but my point is that I have seen a hell of a lot of games come and go (including PC2, which I bought on day 1). For the most part, getting really good at any particular game is about learning how to bend yourself to what that particular title demands of its users. Grand Prix Legends was all about throttle control, for example. I don't know if any sim has ever made me a better real life driver, but one sim stands above the rest with respect to definitely making me a better sim racer: Assetto Corsa Competizione.

One of the measures of the player is Pace, but by always (offline or online) grading the player on things like Car Control, Consistency, Safety, Trust, Race Craft, and Track Competence, Kunos rounded out what is important for a sim racer to be good at. The game constantly is updating you on these ratings, and it makes you badly want to improve in all of these areas, as opposed to how success is measured in so many games, where a quick jaunt to the leaderboard shows a guy's best times, but not the 30 disastrous laps which came before. I started on the game, and was running really good times right away (pace in the high 80s, consistency in the mid-90s) and wasn't crashing, but was aghast when I saw my car control (was around 50).

50!? What the hell? I'm not crashing!

Then I looked at the messages the game provides, and really saw it; sectors marked in orange or red, indicating that I was pushing the car WAY too much. My tires were completely shot in no time at all. The game is constantly feeding you this information: you exceeded optimal grip on this corner, you used too much steering angle on that one, etc. I took in that messaging, and altered things, reducing my over-driving as much I could, and the result was all-around improvement: Car Control at 96 now, with most other ratings in that general vicinity, and even got my Driver Rating in the highest tier, just short of 9500.

I've never played a game which was better at making me a better racer than ACC, and I think it may end up on my Mount Rushmore of sims when all is said and done.


Funny you say this, in my iracing team discord someone asked about buying acc the other day when it was on sale on steam. More than half the team said on sale for $15 the game isnt even worth it. Most said they wouldn't pay over 5 for it. I doubt it for the reasons you mentioned and more attributed to the fact that they said a year after release game is so blatantly unfinished its ridiculous. Personally haven't played the game, but I will heed their advice and stray away and continue to run GT cars on iracing.

Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
I misjudged Project Cars 2.

The tire model is dynamic. The carcass and contact patch are simulated separately. The amount of variables and layers of lateral force delineation are why they feel floaty in left-right transition. They have too much combined accel/turn grip, and braking/turn grip, and too high usable slipangles, making them feel fast, but difficult to consistently, fully exploit. I definitely don't like how they drift. Will continue playing with them in racing a bit..

The spring rates are indicated within the suspension geometry. I highly recommend if you haven't, use this sheet. I think the creator was involved with the development? Or was able to find the motion ratio multipliers in the game files.
http://forum.projectcars...nsion-Calculator-v0-996(b)


This is my major issue with pcars. The cars all seem to have infinite grip. I have to make a solid effort to spin a car. The game begs to be overdriven and its the only way to get fast lap times. Going from Iracing to this is like being in 2 seperate worlds (essentially you are) the way the cars need to be driven. Iracing smoothness is king, overdriving is asking to end your race early or at the minimum be very slow. Pcars if you arent being aggressive everywhere you will be way off pace. I think part of this comes from them trying to have a good controller intergration.



Not true at all - I can spin them on command and the countersteering, sliding, breaking grip, gaining grip, weight transfer, all that - is much more nuanced and realistic in PCARS2. I can easily slide cars, especially the high powered ones. I;m not using any assists whatsoever and using a pad.

The standard tunes for the cars, especially road cars are dreadful. The cars have too much grip and are very skittish and bouncy. Play around with the tunes and tune them to break traction more easily. It;s the most satisfying feeling in the world catching drifts in PCARS2.

I actually disagree with both of you to an extent.

iRacing is by far a more realistic simulator than Project Cars 2 in, I would say, almost every aspect. The problem with iRacing is it's below par tire model. The game is nicknamed iceRacing for a reason and that's because you can lose the rear end with lift off oversteer at 25 MPH in very grippy cars like Mazda MX5 Cups.

Project Cars has always suffered with problems with catching slides. The physics are naturally snappy and twitchy, particularly in the original game. I'd still rank Assetto Corsa a much more natural SIM than Project Cars 2 and from what I've heard though never driven, Assetto Corsa Cmpetitzione has much better GT cars than iRacing.

All 4 are terrific games and very enjoyable in their own aspects.


When was the last time you ventured to that side of sim racing. Hasnt been referred to as ice racing in like 5 years. The "below par" tyre model is a work in progress for sure, but they are also doing their own version of a tyre unlike everyone else who is either using the empirical approach or a table. Iracings trying to use a live tyre. Also, ACC currently only uses 1 point for their wheel physics as they recently announced they are going to go to a 5 point.... which is what pretty much everyone else already uses in one form or another. Heck Rfactor uses a mesh system. https://youtu.be/5H2zGGUdfrA

So while you may not like the tyre model, and i will proabably agree with some things, like currently cold tyres = more grip is silly to me, they are constantly evolving and pretty far ahead of some others.

I am aware this sounds fanboyish, but were on a forza forum and talking poor tyre models.... Every sim has its flaws including iracing. Also, I would hope that ACC would have better gt cars than iracing as thats literally all the game is and are direct partners with blancpain.... However thats very subjective.

Forza's tire model is lacking compared to a SIM but that's because we're comparing it to a SIM. I like Forza's tire model because it's consistent. It gives enough information on the wheel to know what it's doing and has a nice general rubbery feel to it. It's hard to explain fully. It's not perfect and by far not the most realistic but it is consistent and not frustrating or confusing like iRacing or F1 can be. The cold tires = more grip like you said is very weird and it just means you hand to drive in an unnatural way.

Now when it comes to ACC I'm really excited. I recently watched Jimmy Broadbent's video on the new tire model and it does look really really promising. Totally agree with you that ACC should have better cars than iRacing because it's specifically tailored to GT cars. When it comes to how the physics feel, everything is pretty much subjective. I prefer consistency over accuracy, hence why I regard Forza quite highly. Where Forza suffers horrifically is the lack of refinement. I think you and I can both agree that Forza will never become a SIM because of its huge mass of content. That doesn't mean it'll never become more of a SIM but it'll never rival an iRacing, not a hope in hell.

But this is precisely why I do my realistic tunes and setups. Forza's physics can be pushed much much farther than people think but Turn 10 really miss the boat and don't refine anything. Everything is chucked into their algorithm and engine with the thought of "that'll do" which isn't good enough. When you actually take time to refine it, it's really amazing how much better the game is but Turn 10 as always completely miss their own potential because they focus on quantity over quality which leaves a lot to be desired.

Edited by user Tuesday, August 13, 2019 12:24:21 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: A-Class Racing License
 1 user liked this post.
#80 Posted : Tuesday, August 13, 2019 5:21:52 AM(UTC)
Cant disagree with any of the comments on this page. Well said guys, and kudos to a discussion that didnt simply just lead to bashing either one game or another or going for personal attacks. Nice chatting with you.

Colin, I completely agree I think as long as they are a group that is directly linked to ms, no matter how nerdy high tech perfect sim the people there would like to make it, it wont happen. Sim titles simply just dont have mass appeal. Heck in the world of sports motorsport simply doesnt have the mass appeal of a Football (american), soccer. Madden comes out every year and continuously outsells forza which is biannual. Even forza 5 which was a launch title and came with the console in many instances barely outsold the first madden on xbox1. And the first fifa on xbox 1 still outsold forza.

Seanbil I think you are right. Video games were always after the children demographic and the majority of children would rather have some fun to play silly title. Ie rocket league etc. They dont want to grind around race tracks and try to get slightly faster. When you hit teenage years you may see them go this way a little bit, but at that point so many had grown up on call of duty etc that they still dont care for the genre.

Evan, I agree if they would refine rather than "we built a super algorithm, we can predict a car without knowing all the information" Ummm what? lol. How about trying to actually get the information. There are only a handful of cars of the hundreds they have that I think they would remotely have a hard time tracking down/scanning and pulling the data from. But i dont think their system is even built to handle most of that data anyways so that would all be a waste to begin with.

I dont really follow you on the physics system being able to be pushed. Care to elaborate?

Imo iracing is always very consistent with the drive. There are very limited cars and on top of using tons of data they try to get real life driver input on the cars. The issue with the tyres doesnt cause you to drive weird but it makes for odd setups and wonky stuff sometimes. Like trying to run the lowest possible tyre temp, having fastest laps set the cooler the track is. It is more of a sensitivity issue which is being worked on with the updated tyre model, but its taking them a while to roll it out on everything. The other issues i have is due to them not faking and data if they cant get access to the data (which is often difficult on modern race cars until they become irrelevent) is that it is a constant limiting factor on the cars in the sim. The other issue i have is sometimes from the data and the testing and input from a real life driver, they will release a car. People dont like the way it drives and complain. The next season a member provides them a baseline which is better to drive but is completely different from the original and the baseline is replaced with this new baseline. This continues and a few seasons later the baseline provided is nothing like the original and you are no longer driving the same car/ same characteristics etc.


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#81 Posted : Tuesday, August 13, 2019 6:40:51 AM(UTC)
When I mean the physics being pushed, I'm taking about refining the cars yourself. Getting real world data and plugging it into the game to make it more realistic. Most of Forza's inaccuracies come down to two things:

1. Poor stock setups

2. Poor performance accuracy relative to the real world counterpart.

When I mean 'pushing the physics'. I'm taking about using the upgrade, tuning and handicap system to better refine the cars, hence what I do with my realistic tunes and such.

You should try one of my tunes and setups sometime. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised how different you can make the physics feel.

When it comes to iRacing, I completely agree about the tires allowing for wonky tunes. Same goes for F1. The fastest tunes in both games are setups that cool the tires the most which is odd. I am looking forward to the iRacing tire model and their new damage model looks great too.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#82 Posted : Tuesday, August 13, 2019 9:33:10 PM(UTC)
I tried FM5 today on a borrowed Xbox. Rather than re-examine the gamepad steering from FM4, they injected more forces into the physics, then in FM7, tweaked the tires to death to make the monstrosities that are their tunes plus the injected forces, more exciting to drive. What a hellish driving experience. There is no saving this franchise.
Rank: A-Class Racing License
#83 Posted : Wednesday, August 14, 2019 5:13:32 AM(UTC)
And where do you get your information for these baseless claims?

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#84 Posted : Wednesday, August 14, 2019 5:44:53 AM(UTC)
Off the dome. I don't like FM5 or FM7. FM4 was ok, I put up with it for the content. Can't do the same for the succeeding FMs. Even the menus in FM5 on an original Xbox One are slower than FM4 on a 360.

Remember how the tuning menu used to be? The d-pad was single ticks and the analog stick could send the slider from min to max in 2 seconds if you held it full to one side? That was great. Too bad they scrapped it. Want to change your spring rate by 300 pounds? Have fun waiting for the acceleration of the slider. And the overshoot/undershoot. Fiddle with it some more to get it where you wanted. This type of stuff turns me off. Can't stay interested. ADD or whatever.
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#85 Posted : Thursday, August 15, 2019 8:23:48 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
I tried FM5 today on a borrowed Xbox. Rather than re-examine the gamepad steering from FM4, they injected more forces into the physics, then in FM7, tweaked the tires to death to make the monstrosities that are their tunes plus the injected forces, more exciting to drive. What a hellish driving experience. There is no saving this franchise.


Edited by user Thursday, August 15, 2019 8:30:24 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
#86 Posted : Thursday, August 15, 2019 9:42:13 PM(UTC)
What I think they got right
- Overall the game is fun. I have invested a lot of hours into the game and I still enjoy it.
- It has something for almost everyone. They attempted to cover all types of motorsport. You can play single player or go online. Drift, drag, rival, free play.
- Lots of cars, and historically a lot of them are really good cars.
- Graphics are really good.
- Car packs did have some good cars and they were all new to the franchise
- T10 stuck with it and kept trying to improve/fix the game
- Weather effects and lighting effects are pretty cool

What they got wrong
Bugs - The game had too many bugs. A lot of them got fixed, but it just didn't make since that it had some much going wrong when Forza 6 was good. I was hoping for FM7 to be similar to how FM4 was like a dialed in version of FM3. FM6 was leaps better than FM5, and FM7 should have built on FM6. It seems like they did FM7 from scratch and bit off way too much in too short a period of time. The car loading was really bad, the Forzathon achievements not working was bad, the Fast and Furious cars causing framerate dip on Xbox was bad, the headlights not working was bad, shift animations not working was bad, and list goes on.

No DLC - This was a biggie. They needed to do at least one expansion of some sort. Even a track pack or one new track and some cars. Something.

Off Roaders - I really liked the car packs except for vehicles that I think could have been replaced with something more appropriate for the game. Off roaders on circuit courses just were not that fun for me.

VIP - Who thought it would be good to take away double credits for VIPs after using the mod cards. This was one of the those FM6 things that wasn't broke so why change it. Also, I think the VIP exclusive could have been better. The VIP only rivals events featured some cars that I didn't really enjoy like the Dodge truck for the first event.

Releasing the game too soon - I'm sure the business side of things required T10 to release the game, but it wasn't done when it was released. It was playable, but not done. From what I remember, the jump from FM3 to FM4 was not drastic. A lot carried over from 3 and 4 became the best in the series. FM7 seems like it was different enough from FM6 that much much more time was going to be needed to complete it. I think the Forza fans would have waited another year for a much better product with minimal bugs and glitches and more tracks. I would have waited. I still was playing FM6 and going through the Nascar expansion when Forza 7 was announced would be out within a year.

Overall, I'm still happy with the franchise and still support T10. I think FM8 will impress and get things back on track. I'm sure once the first gameplay trailer for FM8 on Scarlett comes out, we'll all be ready to spend our money and forget about FM7. They do make really good trailers...


Rank: S-Class Racing License
#87 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2019 11:22:29 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
Off the dome. I don't like FM5 or FM7. FM4 was ok, I put up with it for the content. Can't do the same for the succeeding FMs. Even the menus in FM5 on an original Xbox One are slower than FM4 on a 360.

Remember how the tuning menu used to be? The d-pad was single ticks and the analog stick could send the slider from min to max in 2 seconds if you held it full to one side? That was great. Too bad they scrapped it. Want to change your spring rate by 300 pounds? Have fun waiting for the acceleration of the slider. And the overshoot/undershoot. Fiddle with it some more to get it where you wanted. This type of stuff turns me off. Can't stay interested. ADD or whatever.


Originally Posted by: NumberlessMath Go to Quoted Post
I tried FM5 today on a borrowed Xbox. Rather than re-examine the gamepad steering from FM4, they injected more forces into the physics, then in FM7, tweaked the tires to death to make the monstrosities that are their tunes plus the injected forces, more exciting to drive. What a hellish driving experience. There is no saving this franchise.

Rank: B-Class Racing License
#88 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2019 2:39:52 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Turn 10 really miss the boat and don't refine anything.

Their idea of refinement is killing everything they don't like or understand.

Edited by user Friday, August 16, 2019 2:40:52 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: Driver's Permit
#89 Posted : Sunday, August 18, 2019 11:14:24 AM(UTC)
The thing that annoys me and I'm sure many others is when you play online races at the end of each race you don't get enough time to complete the race as the countdown is too short. No matter what length of race your doing you only get a measly 1 minute to complete it.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#90 Posted : Monday, August 19, 2019 3:51:41 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: Speedy dew Go to Quoted Post
The thing that annoys me and I'm sure many others is when you play online races at the end of each race you don't get enough time to complete the race as the countdown is too short. No matter what length of race your doing you only get a measly 1 minute to complete it.

I think that a +1 lap rule is fair.
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