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Rank: S-Class Racing License
#126 Posted : Thursday, September 26, 2019 7:07:47 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Interesting...

This I cannot understand at all - because the braking is apparently tied to steering in Forza's pad steering. How odd - braking would give you better front wheel bite you'd think, but the driver actually stops steering mid-corner even if you lightly dab the brakes.


This is correct, braking does not give you a better bite at all it has a high chance of locking up because you are exerting the grip anyways, what braking mid corner will do is shift more weight forward especially to the outside front corner. The only reason this may give you any increase in grip is because that weight adds pressure to the wheel making the wheel deform more and slightly increasing the contact patch. This is very minimal and likely wont do what u are asking it to do. However braking depending on bias may adjust your balance and swing the rear of the car around a little. The other thing that happens and this is the most beneficial portion is when you dab the brake in the corner it slows the car down, slowing the car down should put u under peak grip and allow the fronts to gain more grip upon releasing the brakes.


No, that's not what I was getting at. If I'm even lightly dabbing the brakes, that should hve no bearing on the steering wheel movement, right? My driver immediately stops steering and actually gets ready to countersteer from the animation - as soon as I even feather the brakes.

This is not realistic at all. I've noticed this in all their past FM and FH games. Rally and tarmac drivers feather the brakes all the time mid-corner to hit the apex properly. In Forza this has no effect but in fact, causes your car to understeer more. Totally bizarre.

You've got this the wrong way round:

Just because the steering angle reduces, it does not mean you're steering less. This steering angle reduces because, in most stock cars and real life cars, the brakes are pushed quite fat forward to prevent the car from snapping at the rear. It's for consistency and safety.

When you trail brake, the steering angle reduces because you're overloading the front tires and are exceeding the front peak friction. Look at the telemetry when you're braking. In reducing the steering angle you're actually increasing the grip in the front tires (as you're bringing them back closer to peak friction) and you're actually turning more and carrying a higher apex speed and more rotation.

If you want more bite and rotation under braking, you can just set the rear brake bias more rearward or adjust the differential.
Rank: Driver's Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#127 Posted : Wednesday, October 2, 2019 10:06:06 AM(UTC)
GT sport multiplayer is leagues upon leagues ahead of FM7.
And offline is no fun as the AI is awful - truly, truly awful. They just follow the racing line at different speeds for each difficulty level.
For FM8 please create a decent online system - GT sport is your competition and you should be trying to best your competition. Safety and skill ratings are a must. And make a decent AI for both drivatars and apportioning collision blame for penalties. And recruit a motorsport consultant - it's very plain to see that no-one at T10 has any understanding of motorsport.
or you can spend all that 'next gen' power on eye candy to please the crowds and not the fans - I'm pretty sure which route yo'll take :(
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#128 Posted : Tuesday, October 22, 2019 10:17:32 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: EpicEvan777 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: PTG Baby Cow Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post
Interesting...

This I cannot understand at all - because the braking is apparently tied to steering in Forza's pad steering. How odd - braking would give you better front wheel bite you'd think, but the driver actually stops steering mid-corner even if you lightly dab the brakes.


This is correct, braking does not give you a better bite at all it has a high chance of locking up because you are exerting the grip anyways, what braking mid corner will do is shift more weight forward especially to the outside front corner. The only reason this may give you any increase in grip is because that weight adds pressure to the wheel making the wheel deform more and slightly increasing the contact patch. This is very minimal and likely wont do what u are asking it to do. However braking depending on bias may adjust your balance and swing the rear of the car around a little. The other thing that happens and this is the most beneficial portion is when you dab the brake in the corner it slows the car down, slowing the car down should put u under peak grip and allow the fronts to gain more grip upon releasing the brakes.


No, that's not what I was getting at. If I'm even lightly dabbing the brakes, that should hve no bearing on the steering wheel movement, right? My driver immediately stops steering and actually gets ready to countersteer from the animation - as soon as I even feather the brakes.

This is not realistic at all. I've noticed this in all their past FM and FH games. Rally and tarmac drivers feather the brakes all the time mid-corner to hit the apex properly. In Forza this has no effect but in fact, causes your car to understeer more. Totally bizarre.

You've got this the wrong way round:

Just because the steering angle reduces, it does not mean you're steering less. This steering angle reduces because, in most stock cars and real life cars, the brakes are pushed quite fat forward to prevent the car from snapping at the rear. It's for consistency and safety.

When you trail brake, the steering angle reduces because you're overloading the front tires and are exceeding the front peak friction. Look at the telemetry when you're braking. In reducing the steering angle you're actually increasing the grip in the front tires (as you're bringing them back closer to peak friction) and you're actually turning more and carrying a higher apex speed and more rotation.

If you want more bite and rotation under braking, you can just set the rear brake bias more rearward or adjust the differential.


Well - it shouldn't happen when I'm just tapping the brakes and have them compressed to just 15-20% ?
Rank: Driver's Permit
 1 user liked this post.
#129 Posted : Wednesday, October 23, 2019 12:51:32 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post


Well - it shouldn't happen when I'm just tapping the brakes and have them compressed to just 15-20% ?


Forza physics just overreact to everything. They seem to operate on largely binary principles. Car physics have a general rule, like only brake in a straight line, get all your braking done before you get to the corner, don't lift off during fast corners. That kind of stuff. But clearly when you need to go fast, you're going to be braking under all kinds of conditions: straight, trail braking, left foot braking, etc. You use brakes and throttle position to balance the car, so the general rules still apply but there's wide grey areas either side that actual physics takes care of, and that area is where really good driving takes place. But Forza doesn't behave like that, so if you do any of this stuff like you would in a real car, the physics will punish you, even if it's entirely appropriate for how the track is driven in real life. And that's just because Forza overreacts to everything. In terms of racing physics, it's a blunt instrument.

It's fun once you get used to it, but you have to drive the majority of cars in a very specific way that you couldn't get away with in real life or actual sim games. And I say the majority because even though there's a lot of cars, the blanket rule about the way cars with different engine-drivetrain layouts behave is applied to a lot of them, with very specific exceptions. If my car behaved (or sounded) the way the stock car behaves in Forza, I never would have bought it: that's because the actual way it's driven just feels like a carbon copy of a bunch of other cars, even though it's not true to its actual behaviour on the track.
Rank: B-Class Racing License
#130 Posted : Thursday, October 24, 2019 1:40:20 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: maynotbeacat Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: opencamswrx Go to Quoted Post


Well - it shouldn't happen when I'm just tapping the brakes and have them compressed to just 15-20% ?


Forza physics just overreact to everything. They seem to operate on largely binary principles. Car physics have a general rule, like only brake in a straight line, get all your braking done before you get to the corner, don't lift off during fast corners. That kind of stuff. But clearly when you need to go fast, you're going to be braking under all kinds of conditions: straight, trail braking, left foot braking, etc. You use brakes and throttle position to balance the car, so the general rules still apply but there's wide grey areas either side that actual physics takes care of, and that area is where really good driving takes place. But Forza doesn't behave like that, so if you do any of this stuff like you would in a real car, the physics will punish you, even if it's entirely appropriate for how the track is driven in real life. And that's just because Forza overreacts to everything. In terms of racing physics, it's a blunt instrument.

It's fun once you get used to it, but you have to drive the majority of cars in a very specific way that you couldn't get away with in real life or actual sim games. And I say the majority because even though there's a lot of cars, the blanket rule about the way cars with different engine-drivetrain layouts behave is applied to a lot of them, with very specific exceptions. If my car behaved (or sounded) the way the stock car behaves in Forza, I never would have bought it: that's because the actual way it's driven just feels like a carbon copy of a bunch of other cars, even though it's not true to its actual behaviour on the track.


Bravo Sir!

You hit it right on the head. This is precisely the feeling I got when I first started playing Forza after driving a handful of fast cars IRL - both my own and friends - AWD and RWD, some of them tuned to nearly 800hp. Something always felt amiss in Forza 7, particularly in the brakes, suspension, and aero physics department. I thought to myself - why does the experience feel assisted in some ways? Even though all assists were off and steering was "sim".

Say, for example, when I play PCARS2, I just feel like there are so many parameters, so many nuances and "mini calculations" happening under the hood that it makes the driving feel real, and very, very distinct when going from car to car.

Edited by user Thursday, October 24, 2019 1:47:05 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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