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That all refers to the audio. Just because its represented in audio doesnt mean it is built into the physics engine, all it requires is some sort of indication of when it should happen. Also regarding the tyre flex, graphically it was backwards for quite some time not sure if this is still the case havent paid attention. If this is still true i find it hard to believe that tyre flex is more than a visual. I dont know that T10 has ever said what is actually represented in their physics other than what we can see in telemetry.

Most tire physics* models have deflection/flex characteristics.
I was wrong about the stock setups btw. I still think cars feel too heavy and sluggish on controller but it's not the suspension doing it.

Edited by user Tuesday, July 30, 2019 2:45:47 PM(UTC)  | Reason: physics*

agree totally
FM5 FM6 I barely touched way too clunky and waiting for loading screens or after race useless screens was a major time killer UI sucked and lets not even get into the cards and boxes,support seemed short lived for those games.Another issue they have is sound,sound has gone downhill and I understand they lost their lead sound guy to grand tourismo team few years back but the sounds need a major improvement and not so many duplicate generic sounds.Sound creates immersion,I understand more sounds = more space but next game/next gen instead of trying for 8k just make the game smooth as silk in 4k or less and improve sounds ,geometry/physics and AI either rebuild drivatars or do away with them and just go back to regular AI npc's take a look at fm4 and refocus.Hopefully they have some great pc ports too because there been far too many performance issues in the past and so much potential on pc to take a backseat approach.On a positive note I am glad they realize their shortcomings and hope they are able to address a lot of things I like they are trying to make online play better and spending some time working on the drag racing and minor sound fixes(lol)
ontop of a few minor things T10 please make the sound better in FM8. I don't care how accurate the sound is playing from a nearby speaker I care how the engine tone sounds the sounds of the gears as I bang through 3rd and 4th gear and maybe have a miss-shift or hear some engine trouble or broken linkage if the car has been damaged in an incident.I don't want to hear half my cars sound like old clips from cruising usa or outrun ;)

THIS right here is what caught my attention! Wonderful suggestion - start low, get all the physics-based characteristics and individual car sound behavior correct, and then build the list up with free and paid DLC. Can't understand why people have a problem with this. In the 90s and early 2000s, we had hardly arond 20-50 cars in racing games - that is, until GT introduced this silly notion of having hundreds of cars - with almost none of them modeled correctly.

I can sing the quality over quantity tune all day long.

You know, this is why I've been investing most of my gaming time in PCARS2 - because it doesn't try to be GT or Forza - it has it's own place and the execution on that game is just brilliant. From the car sounds and vivid, photorealistic visuals to the nuanced physics for each car. Oh... the physics! For a crowd funded game made by a much smaller studio and only their second game in, I am surprised at how deep the simulation is.

With Forza the thing is just because it's somewhat better than GT, they say to themselves "okay, this will do for now - we'll see how we can improve the game in the next title or next generation console". The improvements have been far from marginal between FM5 and 7 or even between FM4 and this generation of Forza. Forza needs to stop thinking about beating GT and build a quality based product that doesn't have to necessarily compare itself to other console racers. It should stand out proudly on its own. It's kind of like going to the gym and seeing a better version of yourself; where your only competition is YOU. I hope that kinda explains what I'm getting at.

Learn PCARS2 (on a wheel or pad) and you can become a much better driver IRL. Learn on Forza and try to drive like that in real life - you're either looking at an expensive trip to the hospital or huge insurance premiums - or both!

I can share my pad settings for your PCARS2 lovers if you like, just PM me. I've got the handling down to something very similar to how pad control is on Forza.

Project cars 1 JUST started as a crowd funded game and its physics was ages behind forza motorsport 6 physics (also known as simcade game), but well it was just the FOURTH game from slighty mad studios, Project cars 2 has never been a crowd funded project, and it's implementation of controller support is ages behind Need For Speed Shift aka their first game but well it's just their FIFTH game...
Forza Motorsport 7 for your information came out before GT Sport (a game born to be only online without a single player campaign) so i don't think Turn 10 were going to consider GT Sport in any way through the development of Forza Motorsport 7 also considering the fact that GT Sport release could have been delayed again.
Now in case you missed it Forza Motorsport 7 is a simcade game while Project Cars 2 is a sim wannabe.
Learning how to play any game with the pad won't improve you in any way your driving skill in real life, and in my opinion neither with a wheel, we are always talking about games.

I can assure you PCARS2 is no "sim wanabe". Spend some time on a real track with a high-powered car and you will know what I mean.

Cheers.

I have It since day one and I play It, I also have Assetto Corsa on Steam and I suggest you to try It if you like simulators and you own a wheel then you'll understand why I'm saying pcars 2 Is a sim wannabe.

Project Cars 2 is now my second-least-favorite "racing game", just after Dirt Rally/2.0. Terrible default setups, equally terrible physics to make the setups work, or vice versa. Or both, probably.

https://imgur.com/a/xtzU7lr

Edited by user Wednesday, August 7, 2019 5:26:05 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Agreed on the setups. By default, the game is an amazing simulation of what driving the bounciest cars would be like. In general, I find PC2 to be a case of hit-and-miss. Some cars are quite good and other are nigh impossible to race with much consistency.

Sim racing has been my main hobby for about 25 years now. That's more than plenty and less than some others, but my point is that I have seen a hell of a lot of games come and go (including PC2, which I bought on day 1). For the most part, getting really good at any particular game is about learning how to bend yourself to what that particular title demands of its users. Grand Prix Legends was all about throttle control, for example. I don't know if any sim has ever made me a better real life driver, but one sim stands above the rest with respect to definitely making me a better sim racer: Assetto Corsa Competizione.

One of the measures of the player is Pace, but by always (offline or online) grading the player on things like Car Control, Consistency, Safety, Trust, Race Craft, and Track Competence, Kunos rounded out what is important for a sim racer to be good at. The game constantly is updating you on these ratings, and it makes you badly want to improve in all of these areas, as opposed to how success is measured in so many games, where a quick jaunt to the leaderboard shows a guy's best times, but not the 30 disastrous laps which came before. I started on the game, and was running really good times right away (pace in the high 80s, consistency in the mid-90s) and wasn't crashing, but was aghast when I saw my car control (was around 50).

50!? What the hell? I'm not crashing!

Then I looked at the messages the game provides, and really saw it; sectors marked in orange or red, indicating that I was pushing the car WAY too much. My tires were completely shot in no time at all. The game is constantly feeding you this information: you exceeded optimal grip on this corner, you used too much steering angle on that one, etc. I took in that messaging, and altered things, reducing my over-driving as much I could, and the result was all-around improvement: Car Control at 96 now, with most other ratings in that general vicinity, and even got my Driver Rating in the highest tier, just short of 9500.

I've never played a game which was better at making me a better racer than ACC, and I think it may end up on my Mount Rushmore of sims when all is said and done.

Edited by user Wednesday, August 7, 2019 6:27:27 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Typo

I misjudged Project Cars 2.

The tire model is dynamic. The carcass and contact patch are simulated separately. The amount of variables and layers of lateral force delineation are why they feel floaty in left-right transition. They have too much combined accel/turn grip, and braking/turn grip, and too high usable slipangles, making them feel fast, but difficult to consistently, fully exploit. I definitely don't like how they drift. Will continue playing with them in racing a bit..

The spring rates are indicated within the suspension geometry. I highly recommend if you haven't, use this sheet. I think the creator was involved with the development? Or was able to find the motion ratio multipliers in the game files.
http://forum.projectcars...nsion-Calculator-v0-996(b)

I believe this has to do with the stock tunes they have in the game. They are downright atrocious for many cars.

I had the hardest time taming the 720S, P1 and LaF among a few others. They all drive like a dream now. It's all in the tune friend. But do take the track and weather conditions into account.

The tuning and simulation in this game is ocean-deep I tell you.



I faced this problem too when I had just gottan PCARS2. The out-of-box tunes aren't the best. After LOTS of experimentation and long hours of hotlapping (which I cherish to this day), I can pretty much make the cars do what I want - on command. Power oversteering the LaF or 720S is such joy, I swear. The game's tuning is very deep and there are many, many variables. Everything affects how your beauty performs on the track.

I'm on a pad BTW, and drift around like a pro (almost) in high powered/high grip road cars. I can't believe how deep the simulation is. Everything to me feels spot on based on real track and road driving experience. Just my two.

Edited by user Wednesday, August 7, 2019 10:20:23 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Funny you say this, in my iracing team discord someone asked about buying acc the other day when it was on sale on steam. More than half the team said on sale for $15 the game isnt even worth it. Most said they wouldn't pay over 5 for it. I doubt it for the reasons you mentioned and more attributed to the fact that they said a year after release game is so blatantly unfinished its ridiculous. Personally haven't played the game, but I will heed their advice and stray away and continue to run GT cars on iracing.



This is my major issue with pcars. The cars all seem to have infinite grip. I have to make a solid effort to spin a car. The game begs to be overdriven and its the only way to get fast lap times. Going from Iracing to this is like being in 2 seperate worlds (essentially you are) the way the cars need to be driven. Iracing smoothness is king, overdriving is asking to end your race early or at the minimum be very slow. Pcars if you arent being aggressive everywhere you will be way off pace. I think part of this comes from them trying to have a good controller intergration.

Edited by user Thursday, August 8, 2019 5:10:57 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I'm talking about the teaching experience itself, mind you, and nothing else. Either way, I'm not in any way shocked by that response, and I think that some of that is very fair and some of it isn't so much.

Fair
-The game isn't finished in some fairly shocking ways, such as not saving your fastest lap. I think it was literally insane for them to release the game without that basic feature present.
-If they're looking for a multiplayer setup which provides the depth of competition like iRacing, then they would be woefully dissatisfied, because no other game has done a better job of providing that. iRacing flat-out is a better all-around title than ACC, especially right now, though I do slightly prefer ACC's driving and tire model. And it should be better: they've been at it for years and charge a premium price. I should think that it carries the advantage.

Unfair
-The game was released at the end of May. Including the Early Access period is fudging things a bit to make it sound worse. Frankly, I think it was a big mistake for Kunos to do what they did, as it invites this sort of thing.

I like iRacing, too. Have been on the service for about 10 years, and dropped an obscene amount of money on it in that time. That's enough time to have the seen development of the cult of personality around the sim, regarding its unassailable perception as the only worthwhile sim around, and the resulting snobbery which has resulted from that. ACC is, as your friends said, blatantly unfinished in some key ways, but the game also could have been released in any state: they were never going to play it, anyway. If a guy wouldn't drop $5 to try their hand at another game, then he's probably more of an iRacer than simracer, which is perfectly fine. Even with all of that, ACC certainly isn't finished, and if you already do a lot of GT3 on iRacing, and have already spent a lot of money to get all of the tracks, there's not a compelling reason to jump ship for ACC.

None of this should be confused for me saying that ACC is a better game than iRacing. It isn't, and I don't see how it could ever expected to be either. I've only been talking about the way that the sim teaches people to be better and more aware racers. In that respect, and only in that respect, no other sim I've played (and I've played them all) has done a better job of that.

Edited by user Thursday, August 8, 2019 9:57:13 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Yea I wasnt disagreeing with your reasoning that ACC makes you a better, just stating that nearly everyone I race with says it wasnt worth the sale price. Most of them got it for $5 in beta tho.

With that said I cant say I agree with how you worded it. I wouldnt say it makes you a better racer but a better track driver. The only way to get better at racing is to race other people. I am 100x better racer since i joined iracing from forza, pcars etc. I have logged hundreds of hours of practice and hundreds of races going wheel to wheel with other people. In my time on forza rarely did i have a time where i was going wheel to wheel with someone for longer than a lap or 2. Doesnt help that the 3 lap races dont encourage good racing. The competition structure is like nothing else currently and it promotes good racing, unlike forza etc. Forzas racing is more similar to doing a track day. Does sound like an interesting practice tool tho.

To give T10 some feedback from someone who's relatively new to Forza, I'll say that I almost entirely gave up on the Motorsport franchise because I found the initial driving experience to be much more challenging to pick-up on a controller than FH4. As a result, I stopped doing the offline content because it felt like a real struggle to get the cars to respond in a predictable way. Since leaving FM7 for FH4, my only interactions with FM7 were the weekly Forzathon events, and they too were beginning to feel like a real chore because I just wasn't enjoying gameplay using an Xbox controller.

When I saw the Watkins Glen NASCAR race last weekend it renewed my interest in FM7 and I decided to give it another look. While I took to the FH4 driving experience better than FM7, I think what really bothered me about Horizon is that it’s a fictional arcade game at its core. This is why I started out with Motorsport instead of Horizon in the first place. In fact, I only bought FH4 as an impulse purchase and didn't think I'd actually play much of it. Ironically, I think what ultimately got me back into FM7 were the months that I was playing FH4. Since I found driving to be a lot easier in FH4, I was able to stick with it long enough to understand the quirks of driving with a controller. The added time spent in Horizon allowed me to delve into other aspects of the game that would ultimately be transferable to the Motorsport universe.

With my only experience with Forza being Motorsport 7 and Horizon 4, I can say that (IMHO) for someone looking for a pure racing experience, FM7 is the hands down winner. I wouldn't have thought that a week ago because I was enjoying the multiplayer experience in FH4 (Well. . . Sort of). The only thing that I really looked forward to in Horizon 4 were the weekly "The Trial" Co-Op events, because it was tough to find people interested in doing unranked races. I mean, the userbase of FH4 probably dwarfs that of FM7 by a significant margin yet there's curiously nobody around to enjoy racing for the sake of racing and nothing more than that. Sure I could venture into the ranked lobbies and deal with all the "crazies" driving Hot Wheels and fighting each other for a silly "Grandmaster" cap; But frankly, it's not a fun environment to be in when you have to navigate through uneven terrain and some nut has to spam "Nice driving!!!" for the next minute-and-a-half because there's no such thing as an accident in the world of online racing.

What Motorsport 7 gets right is the multiplayer experience. I never really explored it in depth before because I felt that my driving was too horrendous to ever leave that "101" lobby. Through the weekly FM7 Forzathon challenges, I stumbled upon a few cars that really suited my driving style. I tuned them up and drove right into the deep end of the FRR Class lobbies. What I saw there wasn't what I expected to see after having dealt with FH4's ranked racing. I was actually amazed at how polite, considerate and professional the players were in FM7 multiplayer. It was far removed from wacko players working feverishly hard to push my Ford Raptor in the direction of a blue tractor that's conveniently sitting in a wide-open field during a Free Roam race. That's not racing for people looking to race. I get it now why there are people in FM7's multiplayer lobbies just racing for the fun of it, while FH4's custom lobbies sit relatively empty. If I were to judge a book by its cover, I would've thought that Horizon would be the easy winner -- it's flashy, it's got cool tunes, and it's got tons of sheep grazing in the countryside. It's essentially just a gigantic bug zapper attracting craziness -- like driving a car off a jump to see if it lands on all four wheels or if it lands on top of a church. In contrast, FM7 is like that thousand-page book that's been collecting a decade's worth of dust on the bookshelf -- while it might seem like a bit of work to get through at first, it's definitely a satisfying read in the end. There's something that feels meaningful to virtually race on a track called, "Road America" instead of something called, "Ambleside Village Circuit". Anyway, for me, the most fun I've had so far with Forza is right there in FM7's multiplayer lobbies. I think my only suggestion for improvement would be to indicate which lobbies have the most activity so I don't need to randomly query each hopper's game server.



No doubt my FM7 driving got better because it shares similarities with FH4. However, the real gamechanger for me was when I actively sought cars in FM7 that shared similar handling characteristics to those that I liked in FH4 and tuned them up! And I think this is an area where both franchises suffer, because 9 times out of 10 a car isn't "easy" to drive out-of-the-box. There's a very steep learning curve to drive well enough with a controller for it to be gratifying to a new player, IMHO. I only stuck with it for this long because I felt obligated to after having spent money on both titles. Had I started FH4 through Xbox Game Pass, then I likely would've left after ten minutes.

Not true at all - I can spin them on command and the countersteering, sliding, breaking grip, gaining grip, weight transfer, all that - is much more nuanced and realistic in PCARS2. I can easily slide cars, especially the high powered ones. I;m not using any assists whatsoever and using a pad.

The standard tunes for the cars, especially road cars are dreadful. The cars have too much grip and are very skittish and bouncy. Play around with the tunes and tune them to break traction more easily. It;s the most satisfying feeling in the world catching drifts in PCARS2.

I actually disagree with both of you to an extent.

iRacing is by far a more realistic simulator than Project Cars 2 in, I would say, almost every aspect. The problem with iRacing is it's below par tire model. The game is nicknamed iceRacing for a reason and that's because you can lose the rear end with lift off oversteer at 25 MPH in very grippy cars like Mazda MX5 Cups.

Project Cars has always suffered with problems with catching slides. The physics are naturally snappy and twitchy, particularly in the original game. I'd still rank Assetto Corsa a much more natural SIM than Project Cars 2 and from what I've heard though never driven, Assetto Corsa Cmpetitzione has much better GT cars than iRacing.

All 4 are terrific games and very enjoyable in their own aspects.

Exactly.

When was the last time you ventured to that side of sim racing. Hasnt been referred to as ice racing in like 5 years. The "below par" tyre model is a work in progress for sure, but they are also doing their own version of a tyre unlike everyone else who is either using the empirical approach or a table. Iracings trying to use a live tyre. Also, ACC currently only uses 1 point for their wheel physics as they recently announced they are going to go to a 5 point.... which is what pretty much everyone else already uses in one form or another. Heck Rfactor uses a mesh system. https://youtu.be/5H2zGGUdfrA

So while you may not like the tyre model, and i will proabably agree with some things, like currently cold tyres = more grip is silly to me, they are constantly evolving and pretty far ahead of some others.

I am aware this sounds fanboyish, but were on a forza forum and talking poor tyre models.... Every sim has its flaws including iracing. Also, I would hope that ACC would have better gt cars than iracing as thats literally all the game is and are direct partners with blancpain.... However thats very subjective.

it's not fanboyish, it's just someone who spent hundreds of bucks in a videogame.

yes hundreds.... hahaha. There is some money to be wasted in that world. Last I checked on content alone i am at like 1200... but i pretty much own all road content that i want to drive and nearly every track.

My wife could ask for divorce for such investment in a videogame..

Have to refer to it as a hobby, not a video game. its much more serious :wink: If i bought everything retail i would be nearing $5k. VR, PC, Rig, Wheel Pedals, Membership and content and im not even on the high side of things compared to many. A DD wheel itself with no pedals is in the 1500-3000 range. High End HE or similar pedals 800+, High end rim 1500. Top of the line pc 3k+. All content in iracing $2500 app., 80-20 rig $1000. Pixma 5k vr 1000+. Can easily be $10,000. Personally I will never get to that point. If i were going to drop that I would buy a spec miata and do a few race weekends a year.

Edit: With that said, i recall someone saying that the iracing guys tend to be snobbish about iracing in comparison to other sims. The above is why. They simply dont look at what they are doing the same and treat it much more seriously. I know there are serious players on forza, gt, f1 etc. But when you are comparing them its makes it harder to look at someone sitting on their couch playing their favorite sim on a tv using a pad in the same light as it is with guys who literally practice for hours on a $10000 setup the same. They also want to believe that their investment was worth their money which is why they believe everything else is garbage. I don't personally feel this way, everything has its strong point and everything its weakness. In terms of forza my wish was always that a AAA game would make the push for a proper sim title.... it hasnt happened and the more i look into it the less i believe it ever will.

Edited by user Monday, August 12, 2019 10:57:24 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified