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A number of racing games get the R8 sound right, even Gran Turismo on the old PS3 did. The car in Horizon 4 sounds pretty similar to what it does in real life. I actually wonder if Audi insists on this when licencing it.

Going to have to disagree with you there, big time. I could tell you what’s a Lambo, Ferrari, McLaren or Pagani/AMG V12 without seeing the car, easily... unless they’re heavily modified, in which case it would be much more difficult, without the manufacturer’s exhaust note tuning.

Yes there is a V12 characteristic, just like V10s... an underlying note that a good ear can hear. But to say the Aventador sounded like an Enzo sounds absolutely crazy to me. Lambo V12s do not sound like Ferrari V12s at all.

Edited by user Tuesday, May 14, 2019 6:26:38 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Yah what they did with most at launch is just gross. The updates we've gotten tho are really really good ( aside from the R34 that is. Idk what happened there) and I hope they continue to do so. I gave the 2 new Minis a second listen, and although they do have the right stereo width, they're not weighty enough imho. There's so much inconsistency in this game it makes my head spin. I really don't know how they could with good conscience release this with the audio as bad as it is. Just boggles my mind.

Devs come on already. I’ve been waiting since release for the poor sounds to be fixed and they are still plaguing the games experience and quality badly.

Listen to us please :(

The new Lamborghini V12 sounds very similar to the Enzo V12 if you listen to them back to back. That was the first thing that came to mind when I heard the aventador for the first time, it’s hard to miss. Both of these cars are similar to the Mclaren f1. The laferrari really does sound similar to the Apollo ie, and MC12 corsa, and the Zonda R.

The exhaust doesn’t change everything about the sound. It just gives the base sound an engine makes a certain sonic characteristic. All of the characteristics that an engine produces are hard to replicate 100 percent. If anything this new sound engine has shed light on how hard it is to replicate sounds for any game. The sounds are right, but they’re lacking immersion in chase cam. The low mid saturation that gives you fullness of sound in the 300 hz range isn’t emphasized. Distortion making the cars feel loud is missing. These are things that previous forza titles had, these are the things that immerse you in a game from chase cam.

The sounds are right however, just not every characteristic is there. (Aside from the sounds that are obviously wrong like the p1 etc.)

Guys it's pointless to post on this thread because the devs won't do anything. Doesn't matter if the sounds are accurate or not, they don't care about what kind of sounds we actually want. They don't care much about our opinions on this thread either. In the Series 9 Livestream they literally told us to shut the f up but in a more formal way of course.

Edited by user Tuesday, May 14, 2019 10:27:47 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Seems that way unfortunately... maybe... idk. I'm going to continue doing my best to rock the boat tho cos as an audio engineer I must. It is my duty. The community deserves better than what they're giving. Especially after teasing us with several great sounding cars a while back.

I believe you never herd any of these cars in real life because, if you did, you would not write nonsense that LaF sound similar to Zonda R. I even doubt that you compared the sounds on YT.
And my inner me believes that you are trolling.

Edited by user Thursday, May 16, 2019 2:19:11 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I have many times at car meets and exhibitions - they do not sound alike at all. I cannot imagine how anyone who has heard or driven these cars IRL can defend the game's questionable car audio engineering choices.

Here’s my reference just so you can audition on your own.

Zonda R @ :57 seconds-1:03 seconds
https://m.youtube.com/wa...?v=uLGa2OwQkSM&t=62s
Zonda R Monza (with reverberation doppler effect)@ 1:45-1:52
https://m.youtube.com/wa...v=XohBdgjdtgA&t=114s

MC12 corsa @ 5:19-21 seconds. Listen to the first gear change, even the cockpit sounds similar to the Zonda R if you watch 5:30- about 5:50 or so. There’s a reverb doppler effect but if you catch the acceleration before the gear change you can hear the similarity. It also sounds like the Zonda R off the throttle if you keep watching (the exhaust).
https://m.youtube.com/wa...v=OsTluPlj4xc&t=351s


Laferrari @ 3:20-3:26 or so. He pushes it a little in 2nd gear, you can really hear the similarity.
https://m.youtube.com/wa...v=ay3jyGQY56E&t=207s

I’m sure in real life hearing something like a Zonda R would be difficult seeing as the thing produces so much sound pressure. Your ears would be in pain if you heard it up close it’s so loud! (130 dB I believe? Correct me if I’m wrong). There’d be a lot of distortion from the loudness of the vehicle alone, and maybe from your ear because the human ear can’t handle it. I think what they’re looking for when they mic these things is direct sound, not distortion or ambient reverberations. That’s what people look for when mic’ing cars for editorials, and top gear etc, and why they sound alike in YouTube.

Edited by user Thursday, May 16, 2019 7:33:34 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

While exhaust note accuracy would be nice to have, the main concern here is how the majority of these cars are engineered. Very mono interior with little to no low end. Listen to how Asetto Corsa Competizione is engineered cos that's proper. Race room is another that is engineered really well. There are some cars in FH4 that are engineered really well, but the majority are just awful. I also have an issue with how lazy the cars feel. Idk of any classic V8 that takes as long as these in game do to rev down. Not just V8s either. There are plenty of instances where the cars just feel lazy. That's not cool. The new MC12 Corsa ( well, not new really. it's a 2008 ) is properly engineered. It feels great. I want every car to feel similar. There's no excuse for just being lazy as they have been.

Also I can hear the loop points in some V12s ( Lambo Aventador for instance ) when at full throttle. This is an annoying bug that should be fixed. It's just blatant laziness.

If I have to do things like set a -18dB high shelf at around 200hz to get these to sound right on my calibrated studio monitors ( Presonus Sceptre S8, PMC two two 8, Mackie HR824 MK1 ) then there's something seriously wrong. You cannot deny that.

I agree with ACC 100% the resolution’s been updated, the sounds are better than the first, much better than forza.

Raceroom doesn’t have the resolution assuming it’s an older game. The Zonda I listened to had the engine note right, the low frequency oscillations weren’t addressed properly (they’re there though, but no where near as pronounced as they should be).

My point being it’s hard for a game to get everything about sound right. ACC is right on the money for me though.

Proper engineering shouldn't be as big of a factor as it is here. The mixing is awful, the imaging even worse, and the EQ is just chock full of rookie mistakes. That doesn't go for all cars, but definitely the majority.

This is how Vipers should sound the cabin >> https://youtu.be/FNxxr5XuKcY?t=73

I wanna know why this new MC12Corsa sound wasn't applied to all similar sounding cars. This thing sounds glorious. Well done.

Well more than half of sound production comes from the instrument (in this case the car) and the mic’ing of the instrument. EQ and Compression is only a small percentage of this process. Most imaging comes from the microphone placement, not the post production processing. If you never have to touch an EQ or compression knob then you’ve done your job as an engineer.

FM4 and 6’s sound was good but not perfect, as with horizon 1 and horizon 2. There where cars that didn’t sound right, there was room for improvement. It sounded like the path that they were taking wasn’t the right path which is why they switched to a new method of sound production. These sounds have more resolution, and less saturation (which we want) from previous titles; BUT when they get it right, the cars have more clarity (in chase cam). I love the low frequency oscillations that they put into the cockpit features. They should’ve brought up the sound design that went into the game and compared it to previous titles. That would’ve cleared things up for everybody. I think they’re mad that people are complaining, they put a lot of work into the sound.

I can’t stress enough how hard it is to deliver a true real life experience in a game. Car sounds are really complex. ACC did a great job but the question is could they do it with a 500 car roster? And could they do it in an open world setting?

They're using full range mics are they not? I don't know of a single car that has the same sound in both the interior and the exterior let alone have a low cut at around 200hz. The majority of these sound like they were engineered by a rookie edm guy. They're narrow, cut at 200hz, and have waaaaay too much upper mids and high end and waaaay too little dynamic range. I understand full well how difficult sound design is, I've been designing sounds for the better part of the last 20 years and engineering it for the last 10. I just don't understand how anyone at that studio can listen to say the Aston Martin Vanquish ( 1 of at least 500 ) 'n decide that is a viable product. All I want is for this visual feast to sound as good as it looks. There are some examples of great sound design, but the majority are just awful and need to be updated. The response we got in the last stream just does not give any sign of hope. The least they can do is take the sounds from the recent FM7 update and port those over. I know this can be done cos that's where some of these FH4 sound updates came from ( R34 for example ). So go grab all those FM7 updates and toss them in here. There's NO reason these 2 sister titles should sound any different other than the environment. Make them sound the same, just make each do different things. FM for track days, and FH for everything else.

So again, I say that all we got from the last stream talking about audio was excuses. IT'S SO HARD. Well, give the job to someone who is passionate enough to do the job right then. At the very least make effort to fix the issues that are there. Don't just shrug us off like we're a buncha idiots who don't know audio.

I couldn’t tell from the video what microphones where used. I saw some long range microphones but I don’t know what they used for the cabin, the exhaust, or the engine. (Looks like a long range on the exhaust of the viper).

I just listened to the whole audio segment, and there’s a lot of stuff in there that you guys are missing out on. I don’t know the guys name (the guy with the glasses), but he definitely proficient in audio.

He starts off talking about finding the right cars which is the main thing about getting the desired sound. The instrument constitutes for half of the recording. He then talks a lot about the mic’ing process which is the second most important part about getting the sounds. He talks about mic position which is how to get the desired sound without having to touch the EQ. This plays a role in imaging (frequency is registered on the vertical axis). He brought up the fact that the mics used on the exhaust were getting proximity effect which means these mics are probably dynamic. They had to eq out 2-300 Hz which is where the saturation (fullness of sound) is. They still have the engine note, there’s just no “fullness of sound,” that’s being complained about due to the mics being used. Too much low mid proximity effect masks the engine note. I haven’t looked at microphones in a while but I don’t think that there are any wireless large diaphragm condenser microphones to get rid of the proximity effect. All the while keeping the saturation or fullness of sound (which is there for me). This would be a problem for any game trying to capture car sounds. It constitutes for 10 percent of the recording which isn’t much but it does apply to all game engineers. Mic placement is more important than EQ’ing which is why he talks a lot about the recording of the sounds on the stream. They had to take into context the placement of the microphones around the sound source in order to avoid washing out certain frequencies. He also talks about getting rid of the noise that the exhaust produces at high rpms. This is due to the amount of air that was blowing into the microphone from the fast moving exhaust gases.

There’s a lot in there man. Hoops they had to jump through, decibel restrictions, finding a smooth airstrip etc.

He get’s into granular synthesis (post #27) which is really really cool. He’s definitely a good sound guy, sound design is very interesting topic. It’s a must know for a professional engineer or producer.

Edited by user Saturday, May 18, 2019 12:29:24 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I missed what you said about sound design I’m sorry. I hope that the proximity effect masking the sound of the engine from the exhaust helped. The game doesn’t sound heavily compressed on this end. There’s more frequency content and resolution than in previous forza titles. Forza Horizon 1 sounds like it’s capped at or below 20khz. It feels like there’s more bandwidth in horizon 4, along with a higher resolution.

Edited by user Saturday, May 18, 2019 12:48:37 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

While it does sound better than 3 by a long shot ( I did some lengthy comparisons last night ), it's still extremely compressed / saturated. There is no good reason to have that much upper mids and high end. Nearly every car engine is missing so much weight down low. Lower mids and bass are almost non-existent. As I said, it feels like the work of a rookie edm guy. Most of it that is. If you record the AM Vantage and analyze it you'll quickly see that it's entirely too narrow vs the R8, RS7, Mercedes-Benz or any of the McLaren's ( P1 exhaust note is still wrong as it's just a pitched copy pasta of the 670 / 720, but that's beside the point ) as all of these have proper width, and dynamic range. The Dodge Hellcats have almost no low end at all, and the Demon just sounds like a mono vacuum cleaner. I just want to know why all the dynamic range and width was sacrificed on most the cars. Is there a good reason for it? I just want answers. I want to know why nearly every vehicle has the engine tone coming out of only the center channel on my surround. I want to know why nearly nothing makes my subwoofer move ( Have you been in any car that doesn't have a subby rumble at idle? ) I also want to know why FM cars need to sound different than FH. What's the point of that? Difference for the sake of difference is just silly. The same cars are used in both games, so make them sound the same. Cars should sound the same ( unless they have exhaust mods, but y'all don't utilize that kind of audio feature so...) so why make them different?

I just want answers and the audio team seems very unwilling to give them let alone acknowledge the problems that are there. They don't have to record new everything, just fix the imaging and dynamic range. I don't imagine it's that difficult. I can mix a full song in an hour or 2. I can do a surround mix in about the same amt of time. Pull the stupid low cut and narrowing of the current sounds. Done. I want this so I can stop applying my silly EQ band-aid every time. It gets old.



If I can apply this and still hear the rest of the game very clearly then there's something seriously wrong. It should sound muffled if I pull that shelf down as little as 6dB. I have it pulled down 12 there ( uh pay no mind to the .5dB 3.2k bump Idk how that happened. Not a normal setting.) You're not mixing an EDM record here. This thing doesn't have to be mastered to -4 LUFS. I hate modern engineering and the loudness war. It's pathetically silly. SOME good things have come from modern engineering, but for the most part y'all are either deaf or out of your minds. I have VERY good speakers, and there's no reason ( at low volume mind you ) that I should still be able to clearly hear this game with this -12dB high shelf. It should be muddy. It's not. This is problem. You need to fix this. Idk how much more clear I can be.

Exactly. Here's the motor and vehicles it's used in:
https://en.m.wikipedia.o...wiki/Ferrari_F140_engine

Proximity effect doesn't mean you HAVE to cut those low frequencies out. That's a rookie move. There's plenty of ways to manage those problems without completely chopping the lows out. That's a choice that really doesn't need to be made here. I play this game on my production rig and I can assure you that this thing is engineered very wrong in most cases, but very right in some. The new MC12 Corsa that just got added for instance is engineered very well in the interior. Almost perfect. There are several others as well tho I feel like a broken record repeating them all the time, so I'll touch on a few others. 2017 Camaro ZL1, lots of Mercedes-Benz, A few Audis ( RS3 Sportback, RS7, TTRS ), Several of the VWs sound and feel pretty good. But out of 500+ cars this small amount is just a tease. I would jus like confirmation that something is being done about the biggest offenders. Lambos are fine, but I wouldn't mind it if the Aventador interior didn't have that weird LFO at WOT. The Huracan could use the R8 sound and I'd be thrilled about that. The Ferrari V8 sounds pretty good, but it's a lil quiet for my liking ( 458 Italia, 430 Scuderia etc ) I'd like this to be engineered closer to the California T, and 488 GTB. Those 2 sound almost perfect. The Skylines have the wrong engine. They're GT-Rs, not GTS-Ts.

My biggest beef is with the engineering. When I play this on a surround system and some of my favorite cars come out of only the center channel in both chase, and cockpit view ( the exact same sound mind you )with this obnoxiously processed mono weightless sound it's very disappointing. The older Aston Martins were definitely better in FH3, and the updates made to FM7 blow those out of the water completely.

So I take the proximity effect excuse you just laid on me as nothing but that. An excuse. I know the techniques EDM guys use on mid bass and other instruments and those are horrible practices. They've clearly been applied here. This is a no no and should be fixed. Far as I'm concerned the game is broken since it sounds so horrible on a home theater setup. It's that simple. Broken, so fix it.

If that's true then I hope all manufacturers insist on having their respective cars' audio character represented correctly before agreeing to license them in a PG/T10 game!

The American cars in the game as well as many Japanese cars sound terrible in comparison. The R8 really is a *golden* sample in my opinion. It even sounds powerful and I can feel the notes coming through my subwoofer as well.



Sorry, but it irks me a little every time someone says "if they didn't have so many cars to do, they'd do all of them justice."

No - I don't think so, they would still take shortcuts if there were 200 cars or so because they now have bragging rights to 30fps/4k/hdr on xbox. Great graphics and a huge car list sells racing games upfront - but car sound issues also causes many problems down the line, which is something they've been turning a blind eye to since FH3.

I believe they can do it - they have funding from MS after all and are a first-party developer. Will they do it is something I do not know - not everyone cares about car sounds the way we do on these forums. Many don't even bother checking YT vids for comparison because to them, the sounds are "what they expect' in a racing game.

This is a shame because the game has great visuals and reasonably good physics. The half-hearted car sounds is what makes me put it down every time and I actually go back to the older games which actually bring a lot more immersion and replay value because of the sounds. But that's just me.

Edited by user Sunday, May 19, 2019 8:16:04 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified