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I've just read about your idea and I think it sounds good. In that way skilled players would be rewarded by getting the car a couple of days earlier that the others, it would not be fatal to miss a couple of daily events, also, you can avoid the things you don't like. But to be more challenging, I think that the repeating of the events should give less progress points than the first time. I think it could even push some people (in good way) to try the challenges they don't usually do. In that case some people could think: "Hmm... I can get a car faster if I'll complete the trial. Why shouldn't I try?". It would be much easier to try a trial or playground games if you would be sure you have another ways to get the 100% bar if you fail these.

Edited by user Sunday, March 10, 2019 9:29:50 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

By repeating events, I meant that if a player was having trouble with one, they could go back to another to get the higher bar.

Say they passed it on normal for arbitrary value of 1.25, but they are having trouble on a cross country so it was only a lower difficulty. of 1

They go back to that rally race they are doing better on to beat it on expert mode for the 1.5 value, netting them the additional .25 the next time. Having an unlimited level of earnable points on a site would defeat the purpose of encouraging variation in play. If you could farm one event even with reductions, there would be a tendency to milk one until not viable, whatever was easiest.

This approach allows as time goes for even more variability. Perhaps the PI of the vehicle you use could eventually be incorporated to add even more. So doing something in S2 will net more than C class to reflect the higher challenge of racing high PI cars.

I never thought about that, but yeah. It would encourage people to break out of their bubble, to try that which they don't normally do just to get that bit extra of the base value which would still be worth more than the difference to maxing out another.


Even longer term, perhaps Co-op and PVP. PVP would be a tricky one. Teams would get together and just sandbag. Unfortunately PVP championships would be impossible. Co-op would be a reduction based on number of players to reflect that it can be easier to win (outside of trials of course) So unbeatable Co-op would net less than winning solo Co-op, but still more than a solo at lower difficulty, or maybe an adjustment based on performance.

This is all thinking of grand scale long term ideas ^.^

This is not abaout capri only because in there is also other cars locked behind that 100% completion, if i see right in upcoming series there is 3 exclusive cars locked behind that 100% weekly completion.

And FE Capri wasnt even available back then everyone when they accidentaly put it on forzathon shop.

It is not a bad idea, but maybe reverse the reward system. Least played class, say for last week, should have the top rewards. This way nothing is "forced" onto the players.

This encouraging of breaking out of one's bubble is actually the main problem right now I believe. Currently the reward for it is an exclusive car.

The way I see it working out is having an exclusive autoshow, where only exclusive cars are sold for ~ 1-2k Forzathon Points. Points can be accumulated through all racing events and games based on length and 2x bonus if the event is online. Class based bonus can be a max 5 % (maybe 10 %) increase at the end of the events or even a reduction of the cars cost based on least used class. That way cars are available to everyone if they put the time in.

Everyone can have their promised freedom of play and all that's left is sorting the issues with the events themselves.

Then again we need to solve the enormous problem with the not ending party at festival. Those people are tired as hell partying for years now. Also the look on some sheep's faces is ruining my racing experience.

You don't "NEED" to do the challenges ... if you want the reward on offer - you do them. If the reward is not worth the hassle , you don't

The speed one this week ... I thought wow they were much higher than my PB but regardless of the reward I thought I'd give them a go.... done both
the drift zone wasn't as high as my PB but that was not done in winter... that took quite few attempts for me even though I like drifting (road rather than gravel)

the mudkickers one I tried once in my modern muscle car ... second race I was winning until fellow blues #2 forced me into a wall & #3 nerf'd me so I missed a checkpoint ... gave up on that

haven't tried the playground one ... can't be bothered

the dailies are easy ... so what if you miss a couple of days? - the reward is not huge (10 or 20 depending on whether you have bought the house that doubles the points)
The combo weekly challenge tends to be fairly straight forward - the triple pass was the biggest challenge this week but easily achievable
After a few weeks of the forzathon shop having garbage (IMHO) in it there were 2 cars I wanted this week ... so I spent practically all of my points
from what I read here the shop rewards come back around so you will not miss out (eventually)

I have in the region of 500 cars now ... but I am not a 'completionist' ... the PO cars? meh... the holy grail Capri FE ?... maybe one day I will win it in a wheelspin ;)
most of the cars left for me in the Autoshow are DLC or 10million credits ... slowly the 10 mill ones will be mine

It may not their intention but this system just leads that peoples have bad experiences, for example i really dislike playground games, espicialy team playground games and to be able to get exclusive cars doing playground games it's just bad experience.

"There has to be awards for those who are most dedicated and skilled at the game." So their system to reward most dedicated players is to force them doing everything to be able to get exclusive cars, for example upcoming summer series, most rewards in events are either wheelspins or super wheelspins or even something even more useless like clothing (and one actually intresting price, hoonigan RS200) so every seasonal event comes just for something that is must to do to get weekly exclusive cars.

And forza ways to reward dedicated and skilled players seems to allways be punishing those who are not that dedicated and skilled, AH is been good example abaout that previous and now we have totally new way to punished to players who have life outside xbox and is not good enough doing anything at least expert level skills.

I just edited the title a little bit so it relates to whats being discussed.

You all have very good points in this thread.

'Slippery Slope' only feels relevant if you're trying to please everyone. It's pretty obvious from the feedback that 100% is excessive, but dropping that to even 90 would cut back a lot of that negativity as it gives breathing room of at least one event and a daily or two that might have been missed. I'm pretty sure most people complaining would consider that reasonable.

So if you get all cars thrown at you right from the start is an amazing experience? No, right? That would feel "too easy". But if you want difficulty tailored to your playstyle and skill, you are already wrong. Because there will be players that think of your threshold as "easy" and some as "hard". And this shows the inherent dilemma of all developers.
I think the best option would be to offer rewards available as "skill" and as "grind" at the same time, like I outlined on top of page 2. Skilled and dedicated people will get all rewards easily, but even casual players will snag some of the rewards.
If we keep the exclusive cars in the Forzathon shop without timelimit, it would be even better. But you can already count on it that at one point players will complain that the 10-15 cars in the Forzathon shop require too much grind to get them.

Can't get it right for all people. And since the new generation relies more on complaints and whining then on getting better, it will become more and more awful.

And I highly doubt that you stop playing the game by missing only one car, tbh. Or how did you manage to aquire all unicorn cars in the past? And even if you do, if you really stop playing a game because you cannot get one car, I highly advise you to seek help and not complain in this forum. The problem seems to lie way deeper. Because what will happen if you don't get the job you like, the girl you like?

@ RetroKrystal
Well, I see it as a complex problem. I understand the game designer standpoint: The customer payed for a game. All new cars are bonuses. These bonuses are handed out in different ways. We add a new way for the most dedicated people. It is a reward for playing the game intensively. Why do people complain?

As a customer I bought a 100,-€-game to have a good time. I play since Motorsport 2, I like drifting, I want to have a good time. There were challenges in the game from the beginning. I finished all drift zones, all danger signs, found treasure-chests ... but in my own pace. If I have to work a lot in real life, I stop playing and work, because I need the money to pay for 100,-games. These games should be fun. Not more work.

Now the game reached a point, where it rewards playing the game every single day (or every third). You get your reward for doing things the developer wants you to do. This is typical for free-2-play-mobile-games, where these players are needed as opponents for whales. But this isn't needed in FH4. It is totally unnecessary. It seems like we are forced to play mulitplayer gameparts, so the designer can say: "Look, the play the game. The players love my work!"

But lots of people don't love it, they do it for the reward. This feels like work. It is wok - not a game anymore.

You can answer: "Just don't do it, it's just a car." And you are right. But is it the intention of the game designers to stop me from playing? To frustrate me? Have I payed 100,-€s for this expirience?

The streams show one thing to me: There is a clear disconnection between developer and customer. The developer haven't build on the loved features in FH3, in parts they are cut out. There are new features like online-adventures and most people don't like them. I do just one in 4 weeks and if my team looses, I am a level down and frustrated. I don't play a second one, because I will loose another level if my team looses again. Where is the funpart in that? It is frustrating.

And now, the game tells me: If you are off town for four days, you will be not rewarded. I don't see another chance to get cars, I see more frustration about a game I payed 100,-€ for. Should I carry my XBox One X with me to play 30 minutes every day when I travel around Europe?

I think the game designers have to leave thier bubble. The world is not only FH4. Your customers want to have fun, not getting frustrated. We want new challenges, but in our own pace, not timelimited. Put in 8 new cars, lock them behind 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 and 80 races to be done. Then I can decide to spend my holidays with FH4 or play every day 3 races to get everything. And I can decide to play online, on tarmac or cross country. Hand out your game to the gamers, accept that they like certain aspects and others not.

You don't have micropayment in your game - why do you design it like a mobile game? I don't understand that approach. We have nine pages communication-discussion. This is totally pointless, when you show this behavior to your customer. The 100%-reward shows imho, that you don't made a game for a gamer, you made a game to force us to play daily to have good data. You don't want us to play the way we want, you want us to play the way you want. There is no communication needed, you just need players to do their work. Maybe that is not your intention, but this is the feeling you are selling.

Last question: After T10 deciced to stop locking cars to improve the game experience, why do you lock more and more cars? After the FM7 release you were the good guys with FH3. It was a nearly perfect game in my eyes. FM7 tried to force players and the build the hole game back to the FM6 approach. And after that, you try to force the players in the same way. Are you really surprised that most players don't like that?

Edited by user Monday, March 11, 2019 2:46:56 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

You are wrong with your doubts. Also, as I pointed out earlier, I didn't played XBOX 360 Era games, where there were a lot of unicorns. I've played only FH2, FH3 and FM7 before, and there wasn't any problems to obtain all the cars in these games. And, again, everything I said before is just because of the deadline. I'm not sure a lot of players will have an ability to complete all the challenges in one week. Just because they haven't enogh time. The opnion about one missing car is my own, but I think there are some people that would be disappointed if they miss a car.

And also you should stop comparing the game with the real life. This is not the same thing, you know? And I highly recommend you not to become personal. We're here to discuss the new features, not to have a dispute that getting personal.

Edited by user Monday, March 11, 2019 4:29:04 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

So just make the rewards for 100% completion cosmetic (clothes, horns, quick chat phrases, dances), and have the game content (cars) available for all players. It's not like Tetris makes you play 100 rounds of multiplayer before unlocking the square piece.

In the first place, I think that the unicorn car itself is not necessary.

Edited by user Monday, March 11, 2019 5:11:14 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

As I understand it, Assetto Corsa does that, allowing you to use any car right from the start of the game. I've never seen anyone complain that Assetto Corsa is therefore too easy.

Surely all it does is provide a level playing field so the best driver wins, it doesn't make it any easier to be the best driver.

We were taking about completionists.... not about the difficulty level of the game. Having fun while collecting cars (and it seems to be his only drive to play the game) can only happen when cars are inherently locked. I sincerely don't believe that a completionist car collector would have any fun if he had all cars in his garage from the first minute they play.

So your argument is completely moot.

I've just looked at the info on the game case, and nowhere does it talk about the point of the game being to collect cars. In fact from the information on the case you'd have no idea that you don't just have all the cars available from the start, there is no mention of having to do anything to gain access to any of the 450 cars it mentions, other than it saying some will be provided by online update. OTOH it does pitch itself as a racing game, with an IGN "Best Racing Game" square thing on the front.

The Capri FE is in the game from day 1. There were 2 opportunities to get the car and there are some people who got it from the AH, yet you still did not get it. I have never seen you complaining that you cannot get the car. Now PG offers you a way TO ACTUALLY GET THE CAR and now you threaten them to stop playing. So it is ok from you if they just delete their update and leave the game as it is? Just say yes or no, so I know if I should continue the discussion.

That Voodoo guy was at least honest. He said: "I paid 100,-, so I am entitled to everything".

My bet is that data would show that most guys would not even use the Capri for more than one hour.

Anyway, I have setup a system that would help with most complaints, yet noone is even discussing it. And I think if we would work together, it would be more helpful than endless complaints. By the way, I agree about these points: I don't like the timed nature of the event and I don't like that you need 100% completion.

If you set this up around Forza point, maybe you can double the prices of cars in Forzathon shops once the event is over. So there is some timed nature, but you can still get the car.

My view on the "Festival Playlist".
"Games as a Service" is a model that unfortunately won't go away in the near future because it works in a lot of games. Thus, similiar to lootboxes, developers will strive for including it everywhere - doesn't matter if it actually makes any sense.
In the light of this PG tries to invigorate unused game modes by hiding desired rewards behind them. They know how coveted the Capri FE is (that's why it's the 100% monthly reward) or the Bone Shaker was (used to push the unloved playground games).
On it's own it's a viable tactic to make people play unopular game modes (GTA Online for example does this too with higher $-output or unlockables).
The problem for me arises with the 100% requirement for the biggest rewards (cars) - especially with the 3 days time frame for the dailies.
There are weeks in which I'm out of town from monday until friday. Thus, despite being a regular player I would not have a chance at getting the 100% reward. (And no, taking my Xbox with me on a business trip is not an option).
100% requirement is too restrictive. There has to be some room to miss one of the tasks. As it stands now I could miss out on (e.g. the Capri FE) because I missed 1(!) daily "challenge" in a whole month due to work. That's just crude and bad game design.

Maybe you'll be surprised, but all the cars in Forza Horizon 4 are locked from the beginning, even the autoshow cars. They are locked behind the price you should earn to get them. And you should play a lot to buy the most expensive ones. Getting the exclusive cars even through the Horizon Playlist is much easier than, for example, 10-million cars. The only difference that in the case of autoshow cars you are not burdened with the time limit.

The whole concept of that just makes me ask "WHY?!!!!!!!". It's like if my real life car maker found a way to make me listen to an unpopular radio station while driving. All it would achieve is to make me buy a car from a different car maker instead.

I accept a challenge in a game I payed for, but I want to do the challenge in my own pace. I finished the FM7 showcases last week, because last week I wanted to spend 3 hours for the 300 miles race. I think it's okay to have a challenge and it makes worth collecting cars, but I hate the timelimited nature of the PG approach. I think, that we will get the Capri FE before christmas in the forzathon-shop and it will be okay to get it then. In FM7 you get all the FE-cars thrown at you after two years. But the feeling about FH4, being frustrated because I have to work 5 days out of town, makes me feel like: Okay, if I can't handle your pace, PG, then I should play other games.

I don't think this was the intention behind the 100%-reward. Good idea, bad execution. Say 25%, 50% and 75% for rewards so each one can skip a week or skip all trials in four weeks - this might be okay for most players. But 100% shows a greed for passion of players I don't understand.

And I also don't understand why so many people here have good ideas to improve the game, but highly paid game designers don't have them. I don't think they do not know better how to do their job, so I think, they know exactly what they are doing - and this is let us work beyond the point of having fun like lots of people say. That's the reason why I am disappointed and don't see a reason to improve the communication between developer and community. If a person does not want to listen to you, you do not have to communicate. Instead of improving wallriding, frustrating online-adventure ranking system or smaller bugs, we get paid to do the things most people are complaining about. I cannot remember to have ever seen a game design approach like this.

Edited by user Monday, March 11, 2019 6:21:12 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I don't like it either but it is a concept many, many games follow these days or try to. Thus, it has to generate advantages for the developers/publishers - otherwise they would not pursue it. "player investment" is THE newest thing to have.

Do you have miss the point that it's not only abaout Capri, in next series 3 out of 4 seasons 100% completion reward car is something that is been never available including Bmw M3 GTR what i bet is car that many people wants.

And most peoples there is been only change to get capri (it wasnt anyones forzathon shop at that time, for example for me capri is never been in forzathon shop) And what come abaout using capri i have allready use that more than mutch more than hour.

Yes, that would be fine with me. I have never seen anybody using the car in online racing, partly because so few people have it. If the car didn't become more widely available, the level playing field would be maintained. But by making it so that everyone can have it, they are basically forcing you to get it as well, because it's only after it has become impossible to get it that it will become apparent how good it is for online racing. You can't wait and see if it becomes the meta for online racing, because if that does happen it will be too late, as happened to so many people with the Bone Shaker. So the only way to be certain of maintaining a level playing field in the future is to get the car, just in case. Of course, in most cases, these cars aren't totally OP for online racing, which just adds to the feeling that it's all a massive waste of time.