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The reason for this was that we originally had a lot of content coming out in the last update / show in the last stream but unfortunately this got pushed back due to numerous reasons and therefore the last stream wasn't as content-filled as originally hoped.

In relation to your chat myself and FreelandPolice spoke about this (I was with him when he was replying to you). I watched the last stream back and realized you had asked the same question throughout the stream as you did to FreelandPolice. The only issue is that during a stream, firstly the stream isn't there to answer questions as it's there to inform and show the viewers the content which is coming up in the next update. Secondly, the chat goes so quickly that questions are easily missed.

Which leads into your last idea - The Q&A. Following your end stream discussion, we realized that a Q & A is needed as the stream isn't the best place for this. I'm still trying to work out the best social placing going forward as there are various ways and options. (See via this thread, it's currently in a discussion phase)

Edited by user Tuesday, March 5, 2019 1:44:50 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Hello retrokrystal,

I would like to see some TRANSPARENCY and COMMUNICATION on the huge post about engine sounds. Last 3 updates there was nothing done and nobody tells us if they going to fix it, not even a single reply with some info. It would be nice if you take this aspect of the game more seriously because engine sounds in a racing game are very important and there is no more then silence from the devs. Just let us know what you are working on.

Thanks

Anything relating to in-game feedback, including audio sounds, should submit a ticket.

Just watched the livestream and was sadly disappointed to see that all this transparency and communication discussion has had zero discernible effect on improving the quality of the streams. Most of the livestream time was wasted with mediocre racing, with minimal discussion on the state of the game and upcoming features and future plans. Since this is one of the few times when the devs directly communicate with the players, it's frustrating to see the majority of this time squandered when there's thousands of other streams we could watch if we just wanted to see racing and random reactions/commentary.

Maybe a better solution would be to have a more structured presentation talking specifically about the game, but with no live gameplay. Any gameplay footage shown would be prerecorded specifically to highlight the new features, so the dev's time can be better utilized to explain the new feature and answer questions. If you don't have enough content to share to fill the full hour, then just make the streams shorter and don't waste our time or yours filling the rest of the time with throwaway filler content, or have a Q&A session with players in the stream chat at the end.

Also, it seems like the chat replay was pretty heavily censored (I just missed watching it live so watched the replay). In another thread other players were mentioning that a lot of comments were being censored, and from looking at the replayed chat log that does appear to be the case with the lack of negative comments and the significantly smaller number of comments in general compared to previous streams, and the frequent posts from the chat moderators. I know this issue has been discussed extensively already in the context of the forum, but it applies here as well. As long as a comment doesn't violate the rules, then, positive or negative, it stays. Anything else is a major transparency issue between the devs and the players (just as it is on the forum).

I'm also not happy with doubling down on time limited events with the Festival Playlist. From my perspective the complaints around exclusive cars come primarily from players who missed the time limited event where they were offered, and putting in an even more obnoxious time limited event that now uses dailies and the awful online multiplayer events all combined to get a rare reward seems like a real misunderstanding of player frustration with this issue. I'll submit a ticket on this as well, but it does feel like the devs are either really out of touch with players or willfully ignorant of the root frustrations around the issue (and I still feel the same way about wheelspins and how poorly they were addressed in previous livestreams by the devs).

Hopefully the livestreams can be improved in the future since this one was another big letdown.

Comment from personal experience. All negative comments of mine were censored. All comments were in response and cited stream comments. Said comments on content only said once. Still deleted and even given a strike one warning. It didnt matter. I said something about the challenge route being boring and simple. Way better tracks being out there and such as my formula drift circuit.

There was no derogatory comment, no blaming anybody, just that it wasnt an interesting route.

Censored.

the deleting of comments during the stream was excessive. probably someone new doing it else some new heavy handed rules in effect. either way it was wrong.

noticed on the second stream it wasn't so. they either got the message or someone else was reviewing the comments.

@retrokrystal we need a proper q&a stream where players questions get addressed rather than an advert. we already bought the game so we just want the game we bought

Couldn't agree with @gamer1000k more. The FH4 livestreams have never been that great, but they seem to actually be getting worse.

Honestly, if you're going to continue to refuse to engage with the viewers live, and treat it purely as a way of advertising new features, I think you would be much better off just pre-recording the whole thing. That way you could spend your time getting some interesting footage put together of the new features rather than making us watch people play badly. You could also have a few different goes at the awkwards chats in between, and probaby cut it all down to a nice 20ish minute Youtube video.

I'm not holding my breath on this. As the months drag on, I'm given the impression more and more, that the devs dont want to discuss anything with us. I think they have their vision for fh4 and are well on their way to achieving its final version. I'd love them to prove me wrong with a reddit AMA, but they either cant(NDA?) or just dont want to

Wrote about bad Z4 sounds, asked for info about future car packs - comments removed. Asked why other people comments are removed as well – got spam strike. You should remove the chat if you can't stand even the tiniest bits of critique.

Edited by user Saturday, March 9, 2019 8:08:56 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Typos etc.

I too would love a fortnightly Q&A stream. No gamplay, just a back and forth between the players, CMs and developers. I think it would just be so much more useful. Obviously, the Supra spammers would need to be auto-blocked from commenting. Could also host the live questions on discord rather than youtube.

I start to feel like all those complaints, questions or even suggestions for improvement that were posted here or any other places go straight into the dev trash mail.

I didn't even watch the stream as it's probably a waste of time but seems they are pulling out all the CYA and censorship tactics they can. A last desperate move to cover up their bad game and poor RK is the one that has to eat the [Mod Edit - Abbreviated profanity, profanity and profanity that is disguised but still alludes to the words are not permitted - D] sandwich....I hope she is looking for a new job cuz this one isn't going good....

Edited by user Sunday, March 10, 2019 4:50:42 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

In this, I think having the public discord has become a benefit. More direct communication has helped clear the air a bit with some aspects of it.

But that censorship in the stream was ugly. Really ugly. Worst part and one that people like myself have been trying to express for months? It isn't a bad game. it is a fantastic game. But all the gameplay aspects of it are just being so terribly applied. It is the core of this thread. So many features are good ideas, but so terribly implemented because of the lack of communication. Communicating after a feature is launched? Is far too late. Am going to exclude launch features in this, stuff like the adventure mode, etc. Fixing problems is a separate issue. Also stuff like the ZR1 errors is not really a communication issue.

Community Routes - Events and routes picked that were not suited to the enjoyment for the community on the whole but very niche in how they are attractive. Custom routes should be something players look forward to with regular fresh tracks being presented, not a punishing experience like some impossible level challenge. Different routes, people would have fun while being same idea.

Playground Games seasonal - Playground games are fun. They take with join up and lobby, about 10 minutes to run. But five of them, if they asked how to implement, there would have been scores of ideas. But instead it is just launched with the win most out of five. So near an hour to do it. Most events are won because other team just quits. It isn't rewarding. But had it been asked what the players thought? "Win three of these seasonals over the course of the week" The wins are broken up now over the course of the week and now are fun little events when you have time. Same idea, do playground games seasonal, but far different experience.

Trials - Early trials being always S2 and such? Well they were rough. Too much PI, not matching tracks to the vehicles. A wide range of considerations not considered at launch. But now, there are limits put on things, stuff is themed and matched to, imo, create a fun bit of a racing experience. But it took lots of continual feedback to dial it in. Again, stuff that could have been considered if it was taken to the community to brainstorm and point out flaws.

Seasonal calendar event - Once again, it is all done and right for launch. Immediately the flaws start all getting pointed out. Simple stuff (which was promptly being deleted from the stream chat). Discussions about this, asking for players to input and point out concerns would have addressed all this before it was packaged and ready to ship. Many issues relating to attainability and the gameplay experience.


PG needs to understand. Yeah, people get heated about this stuff. But games a re hobbies and interest. Every player has financial and time invested into it. That also means they want it to improve, and want to enjoy it more. There will be many comments that do not say much, but it is for the benefits of both parties to have that dialog about development in a continual expanding game experience. So when something people want to enjoy and immerse themselves in goes sour beyond their control, they get heated. It is human nature. Video game, TV series, tabletop card game. Everybody has interests and hobbies. So when something brings down what they like, then yeah, it goes bad.

So for Retro stuck in the middle of it all, that is the consideration. Games like this are hobbies. And as a hobby, they are invested in it. As a streamer, how would you feel if the tools and rules around streaming suddenly changed preventing you from doing it how you like or other limitations for an "improved experience". That is the same with what has been happening in forza. Changes for an improved experience, but without verifying that the result will match the intention. So it is important to consider the players, who are also your clients, your audience. Will what you intend be the result? Not only will is improve the gameplay experience, it will help retain players. More importantly, it will reduce cost because time and resources will not need to be spent after the fact to correct it.

So yeah, if there needs to be a reason to have better vetting for new features and discuss in advance with players? It will save a bunch of money and man hours by not having to do the job multiple times.

Edited by user Sunday, March 10, 2019 4:50:57 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

FH4 is what Primaris Marines are to WH40k....

I'd agree with this.

I suspect people tune in for the "info dump" on what's new and coming. Spending 15-20 minutes playing through races after showing the Festival Playlist feature really killed the momentum for me and I switched off soon after.

I think the best example of pre-recorded updates would be Nintendo Direct. All of the key info in a short, well-produced video with minimal downtime.

With a livestream I expect chat interaction, or some real deep-dive into gameplay mechanics like whenever Chris Esaki talks about force feedback on Forza Monthly. There are plenty of streams every week where we can see people "having fun" with the games, but the update videos should focus fully on content in my opinion, since that's what I watch them for; tell me what's new, and when it's coming out. If I want to see how "awesome" that new content is I'll watch Johniwanna when he's streaming on update day 😉

Before I get to replying to these comments, I'd like to address some things following the stream:

0) We now have a brand new Discord! - Join Here

1) If you would like to see the stream summary - click here (I'll be adding the timestamps soon)

2) The excessive amount of messages being removed was my fault. I set up a new bot system for the objective of reducing the works needed for the mods alongside making it easier to command answers such as links or common questions such as "when is the next update". Unfortunately it appears that the bot was deleting sentences that had nothing to do with the system I had built and I'm unsure to why. As I was hosting, I was unable to watch this completely, but I'm aware of the issue and will be making adjustments accordingly. It shouldn't have removed as many sentences like it did.

3) I see a few mentions of a Q & A and "Update." In regards to a Q & A, this was addressed during the stream alongside in the above link (See the link in point 1). A Q &A will be happening, it's just I have alot of planning to do first regarding it as it could involve sensitive topics etc and I want to make sure that the Q & A is presented accurately to you all. In relation to the "Update" stream, please also see the link in point 1. You will see that we do have a "developer diary" planned, unfortunately its had to take a back seat due to time and resources, but it is in the planning. You also have the Release Notes & Issues for all upcoming changes. If you feel the release notes aren't enough, contact @NitroGlitter about what you might like to see there.

Edited by user Monday, March 11, 2019 4:02:55 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

See the above points regarding the "heavily censored" (point 2) and the Q & A (point 3).

"More structured presentation" -- PG Currently only have 1 stream a month. However I am discussing the potentially to have maybe more streams where we can have a more casual 'respond to the chat' gameplay streams and keep the direction of the stream separate to updates & content. You're idea of "chat only" is quite interesting.

Please see point 2 in my above post.

For the first sentence -- See point 2

Second sentence -- See point 2

See point 3 in regards to "developer diary" - We have a similar idea currently planned, we just haven't put it into action yet.

See point 2

See point 3

I wouldn't have made this thread if I wasn't interested in what you all have to say. I am listening to all these comments, hence why I now write up a stream summary and discussing other future communication plans.

See point 2

Also I love my job, I don't need to look for a new one

In-game discussions are not for this thread. You can direct that discussion to the relevant threads in the forums or submit a ticket.

I'm glad you feel that the discord is a step forward. I hope that this continues to better the connection between devs and players.

In terms of the censorship in the stream -- See point 2 above

"Info dump" -- That's why I have a stream summary now following feedback from this thread.

Pre-recorded updates -- See the above mention in point 3 above "Developer diary." It's currently an idea we plan moving forward, just unfortunately its currently held back for further discussion.

Yes, update stream should focus fully on content/the update. Hence why during the last stream I made a change of putting forward the point that we wont be asking questions during the stream but instead just showing off content and enjoying the gameplay. Also for a stream with this aim, it's hard for "chat interaction"

(Mentioned somewhere above too in this post) PG only have 1 stream a month currently, which we choose to dedicate to updates. We are looking to do more in the future which will then enable up to focus each stream to a different objective such as the "chat interaction" mentioned above or casual gameplay etc. However I'm open to see what sort of stream aims you would all like to see.

Edited by user Monday, March 11, 2019 3:54:51 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

You should add Toyota and Supra to the new chat bot because the amount of spam on those two topics was ridiculous and drowned out anything else.

I also don't understand why one critical topic (Open rivals) was entirely glanced over in the stream and then only vaguely mentioned in the mixer chat. In addition, Custom adventure is probably the most requested feature next to wallriding/ramming fixes and should have been allocated a bigger time slot on the stream. To me, the fact that so little time was spent discussing custom adventure almost leads me to believe its basically only in the concept stage and we will be waiting a long time to see it implemented, which I guess was sort of confirmed when it was linked to update 9.

I still don't understand why so much of the stream needed to be taken up with watching developers doing races, one or two races is fine as you want to promote the game but it really dragged on and sapped a lot of the focus out of the overall content.

Also mentioning the Goliath glitch the way it was in the stream was just bizarre. It's like saying, hey guys there is this terrible glitch, we have 'fixed' it but it won't really be fixed for half a week, please don't exploit it in the meantime ok? No mention of bans or credit rollbacks for those actively doing it? Not really much of a disincentive.

RK wrote; "Also I love my job, I don't need to look for a new one"

you may love your job,[ who wouldn't] but frankly you are losing credibility. What with the fiasco that was 'route comp 2', this last really poor stream and your botched 'automated censorship' of the chat all combined with the fact that you are not exactly recognised as being highly experienced in Forza gameplay perhaps we are entitled to wonder ... if the job loves you?

maybe we need someone who plays day-in-day-out, has the same passion that many display here, understands the problems [because they too have experienced the same] that players encounter and feels the same frustrations, disappointments and the daily brick walls we face in our love and passion of this game; in short someone whom we can trust as a go-between because currently its a 'them and us' situation without a bridge.

I belive that you are interested what peoples have to say and communicate with us, but what come's to devs it dont show for me that they are intersted what we player have to say or what we want.

It seems that devs have their own picture what this game should be and what needs to improved and now it even seems that devs have clear picture how they want as to play the game. I remember when months ago you say in stream something like "we want make this game right for you players" now few months later at least in here forum is lots of posts that game is going totally wrong direction.

In this point I'm skeptical is there even point to improve communication between players and devs if devs just ignore everything what we want.

Yes you are correct. We can't discuss too much about custom adventure because it is still in the early days as there's still many thing's which could change. But we thought we should mention that we are working on it, and to make you the players aware.



I have already addressed to yourself and finalized all details regarding the route comp. There is no further discussion regarding this topic.

I have also seen your many insults towards me on various social platforms despite my offer to try and help you with every issue that you have had.

I might not be the best driver in FH4, but that doesn't mean I'm not passionate. I am here to help create a bond between the devs and the players and to enable everyone to be heard. But to do this I need constructive information, whether this be ideas or suggestions or feedback and I want this from the players themselves. If you don't trust me, that's perfectly fine, and I hope one day we can rectify this. But you need to let me know how. Because without giving me a reason why or any information, despite all my attempts to help you, I can't improve this. And all I have is you disliking me for playing other games.

We need to work together. I want to make the game great for the players, as much as you the player, wants to enjoy the game.



The devs are not ignore your ideas here. There are alot of factors to consider such as time, resources, money, schedules etc and unfortunately things cant be done/change overnight (Despite how good that would be if we could).

But I can ensure you that we are taking as much as we can into consideration to help improve the game for you all.

Edited by user Monday, March 11, 2019 6:37:28 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

So many wonderful points here. This is the sort of foundation after that last discussion we were looking for. The start of any development or conflict resolution starts with understanding. Personal attacks are uncalled for. Frustration can lead to questioning a person.

The discussion in discord that occured in this past weekend I think was finally on the same page. The one thing to avoid is the statement "It is just a game". As a community liason/moderator/representative, the understanding of how something can be perceived is a very valuable asset. Try not to view it or refer to it as "a game". Instead remember, it is a product. As a product, different people put different values. Their uses and reasons for usage can vary. Much like how somebody might not care at all about their vehicle while another owner of same vehicle will have whole day ruined by a door ding.

With this perspective it makes how one views said things differently. For myself, that conflict wasnt about the game, but the person to person interactions. Imagine instead of an online route for a game, it was some physically crafted product, and we had all come to display it.

Everything in person. For people like myself, there is no differentiation between digital and physical interations outside the anonymity. So after that discord, I think that is why it got out of hand and not resolved at the time. How we all perceived that event and where we assumed the root of conflict was hadbeen different.

It is also important to consider even more what video games, especially free roam ones offer to people. Games are escapes. For some people, they are just a game, but for others, they can be that little bit of light in dark times.

I am not a stranger to the video game community liason job. I did it for years as a member of Eve Online's ISD STAR program until some years back. Treating a persons concerns as just a game was a big nono. Cause at end ofthe day, was one person interacting with another with unique opinions and feelings. Being a dark and harsh game, it meant that game induced suicides were a real consideration. We had process and training as community liasons to deal with suicide threats. Something I did have to deal with more than once. That dramatically changes how one views online and online gaming.

So if a conflict like this comes up again, it isnt a game, it is a product. The other party is a person and first step is always understanding why there is the conflict. Only once you can empathise with their position is it possible to resolve and to help them empathize with yours. This is what occured this past weekend.



Time is money. The last thing you want is to change. A change is paying to do something twice. But changing something after it goes live does cost more. Refering to a game is a product, a patch is a recall. The bigger the recall, the worse its affects.

In old days, a game launches in a static way, unchanging. So a bad game, that was it. But a game like FH4 and its evolution? Well now game is changing. Look at all the feedback, both in opinions but also ideas for the playlist. It is understandable to want to hold information back, not make guarantees. Like with wallriding and adventure mode changes, it is tough to put a time on. It is players responsibility to understand your side.

With the walride for example. For me, I know the wierd issues and complexities that could occur in such a change, but others do not. How it isnt just a few lines of code. Stream for example could be a good time to give a behind the scenes pre recorded look at all that goes into that. If players still do not get it, well you did all you could to address the time complaint.

Hope this maybe helps with the communication side. My other postings and the chats on discord I think covered how in relation to the playlist something can go from a fun challenge to a not fun one. And of course in regards to that, I submitted my suggestions via the feedback ticket.

Not sure how viable, with short lead times, but is it possible to bump the series stream earlier in monthly schedule or have a soon(tm) stream? So stuff that is coming soon for release like the playlist can be presented forcthe purpose of giving fine tuning feedback. Ideally would be a public test server, but that would not be possible for FH4. A public feedback for balance stream could be almost just as good.

Edited by user Monday, March 11, 2019 7:46:56 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Well looking abaout 100 pages of online thread and all talking abaout horizon playlist in last 3 days i have really hard to belive devs are anyway looking to improve game for all of us. For me it's look more that devs makes what they like and then try to force everybody like it also.

Rivals mode is good example abaout that, players make clear when FM7 launch that they are not happy in forza game without class base rivals, T10 finally over 8 months later fix that, then it come FH4 launch and we have again really bad rivals mode, just not that is just pure downgrade what is was in FH3 but also PG is ignore that people havent like this system in FM7 either and now almost 6 month after release we havent got any word abaout rivals from devs. And when devs allready know how to made class base rivals by having it previous game it cant be so hard to do that it would take months. So for me it's just look that devs are not intersted what kinda rivals mode we players want.

To me that is just lead that i have move on other games first time since october.

Yeah it's honestly just insane that we can't get a straight answer on whether or not PG is interested in listening to the community and adding class based rivals.

Mechanically it should be such a simple feature to implement and could even be rolled out in stages. Why on this earth do I have to constantly rewind my blueprint races when I am trying to lap-time test my cars/tunes when dealing with the Ford Focuses and Audi TTs ramming or blocking the track? What year is it when simple features inherent to all racing games get left out?

Where is the fun being forced to create custom blueprint routes leading the Drivatars off the track so I can get a clean test run? Class based rivals would fix so much which is wrong with the multiplayer in this game. But it seems we can't get a single solid response to it, with the possible exception of an alleged comment in mixer chat hinting that it is something being looked into. For the life of me I can't understand why the system can't be expanded and the silence on the issue. I would be much happier if we could get a yes/no on rivals rather than the current deathly silence.

I formatted my Xbox one for factory data and when I reinstalled Forza 4 I lost all that I saved. the data is not in the cloud?
Can you recover?