LOOT BOXES, A RATIONAL DISCUSSION..... PLEASE.

Forza Motorsport Legacy Motorsport FM7 Discussion
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Okay, in light of the furore that has erupted over the last few weeks concerning “Loot Boxes” in AAA video games, I find myself playing Forza and wondering why T10 and Microsoft are taking a verbal kicking for the “Loot Box” system in Forza.

I can only surmise that the game journalists and YouTube content creators haven’t actually played Forza because, to be brutally honest, I cannot see how the “Loot Boxes” in FM7 can, in any way, be described as “Pay To Win”

I have over 475 cars, 120 race suits, won 333 races in career mode, bought every specialist dealer car to date, won all the Forzathon cars, I am tier 35, level 341, I am a VIP pass holder, so I earn x2 the standard cash and currently have about 1.5 million credits in the bank.

I list this info purely for reference .

I purchase mod card loot crates to boost the cash rewards from races, generally the 30k Master Mod Crate, which I think are good value at 30k in game credits as I make around +540% using the crates because I run the career races either on long or extra long with the Divatar difficulty on pro or unbeatable (which they are definately NOT) Just cjeck out my leaderboard times, I ain’t quick, and I can beat them.

So, the FM7 generally make it HARDER to win, forcing off assists and such. The mod cards can’t make it rain or be a night race, they reward you for playing the appropriate mod card when a race comes up. This argument was levelled at Forza by a couple of YouTube gaming channels, and I feel unfairly at this point.

If you want to spend your hard earned credits on car crates, fine, you win a car, then you have to tune the bugger to the right PI, and then have the skill to beat your opponents in eithe career or in online lobbies.

Forza is probably the least “Pay to Win” game out there, even with the it’s loot crates because the tunes and paint jobs are free!

But if T10 and Microsoft don’t want to be tarred with the EA brush then all they have to do is not implement the token microtransactions system. Or limit what you can purchase with them, like cars and car parts, and leave the loot crates only purchasable with in game credits.

Just my opinion, I open the floor…

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That is one of the reasons why loot boxes do not even make sense in this game. You can’t buy them for real money, they offer nothing valuable at all and it only cost them reputation.

Why did they even bother, I might ask…

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I have to agree with you when you say, the loot boxes in FM7 aren’t pay to win, but still I’m no fan of the system. For me personally they get rid of them and bring back the extra credits for turning off assists like they did in previous games. They also could have added a loot crate as a 4th option when levelling up(and a more expensive one for each 25th lvl or so)…with the wheelspins in FM6 you could also win mod packs.

I’m currently collection tier38, got 638 cars and driver level 372, got the VIP and play most of the time long races on pro difficulty and having a blast despite the annoying drivatar system. For me this is what FM is about, the more you play the more cars will be in your garage…just as simple is that!

I also recall that in FM2 there was a achievement for owning all the cars that were in the game, they should have done the same in FM7 ( except for the locked cars offcourse) instead of the underdog achievement.

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Very very true but one word is all this needs in answer and that word is YET

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I agree with your point about the ignorance of most You Tubers that have brought this game up as a pay to win situation. I’ve even seen the game land on a couple Top Ten worst micro transactions lists.

It does not change the fact that Loot Boxes defy the laws of physics by both blowing and sucking simultaneously.

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Anyone with two brain cells knows that the current system in FM7 isn’t Pay-to-Win.

Anyone with two brain cells knows that the current system in FM7 is still awful and unecessary.

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This is why we have loot boxes…

mystery box
That being said I don’t mind the mod boxes. You get a really good payout with extra long races.

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Since apparently there are no locked cars in them ( contrary to what it implies in the game ) the lootboxes arent even very good at the loot part.

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If you are only at tier 1-4 you can get cars of higher tier that are ‘locked’ through the crates…

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You advance through tier 4 so quickly that it’s rather useless to do that anyway. I was tier 4 on the third day after buying the game without even trying hard.

With no cars in the loot boxes other than ones you can already buy - and cheaper too - they just become pointless.

On the other hand driver suits and badges can only be had thru the lootboxes ( yes I know that you can get drivers suits as you level up but why would you? ) and those serve no function in the game. The badges do nothing and the suits, while being cosmetic-only, are rarely even seen. If you have “legendary” LOL badge or suit, how does anyone even know? Even I couldnt tell if I had a legendary suit nor could I explain why it WAS legendary.

So the valuable stuff in the game cant be had and the stuff you can get isnt valuable.

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Since the crates are bought with in game currency , they are really a non issue. Now if real cash money was involved, then there would be an issue.

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The mystery crates were fun to explore for the first few days, then I figured out the mod Master crates were the only things that interest me. Mainly for the race payouts at first, but now to go for the Underdog card. I paid for Ultimate to boost payouts, get cars, etc but I don’t think it buys an unfair advantage over other racers. Anyone can get to the car-unlock and upgrade parts they want for their preferred MP racing class for the cost of the base game and 20-50 hours’ playing time, depending on the MP class they’re after.

I recognized the tokens as a pay-to-play minor boost, and figured if seasoned racers from other games have more money than time and just want to buy their way into whatever MP class they want for a few days’ break from their PS3, I don’t mind. To get good at online racing they invested the time somewhere developing those skills. EA put itself onto another level, and frankly after spending over $150 on the first Star Wars game, I dropped out because I’m not that good at shooters, and pay-to-play wasn’t going to help me keep up in MP without much bigger investments. It was cool to see EA trying again, and adding story stuff, but the damage is probably already done with the bad press leaving people to assume it’s a $2K game in a $60 box. Given the VIP, the car pass, a couple DLC, and a bunch of later car packs, FM6 could be called a $200 game in a $60 box, but that was over a 2-year period, and only the original $60 was needed to compete with those of us that bought most of the 2 years’ worth of content. I figure FM7 will be pretty much the same. IF tokens ever get enabled I’ll be fine with it but very unlikely I’d need any, to reach the point where I can have fun competing in whatever class MP races I’m after.

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They’re essentially just a combination of the mod packs from 6 and the purchaseable spins from FH3, but they had the misfortune to be “crates” at just the wrong time.

And even if Forza’s established Token system rears its ugly head again and the crates can be purchased with money, they’re of such little value that anyone who buys them with real money deserves to be ripped off.

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My opinion:

Microtransactions, I will gladly spend $5 to get 2 million credit in game. I will not spend $5 to open a random loot crate to get a random car or other material object. I will spend $5 to get 2 car tokens that will allow me to buy any car I want, but I won’t spend $5 on 200 car tokens when every expensive car costs 120+ leaving me with 80 left. I don’t mind microtransactions that allow you to get exactly what you want, but I do not like random lootboxes. Anything that leaves me with leftovers or randomness needs to be gotten rid of.

So glad I haven’t purchased a lootcrate in months. Now that the AH is here, I don’t have to waste money on Mod packs just to make a quick buck.

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I just see them for what they are. A mini game for those that like this sort of thing. It doesnt matter if its a spin, box, FM6 tombola style feature or whatever, its just a way to uncover content. They could have made a “drivers shop” with everything on display that youre entitled to depending on progress with each item showing a CR price. However, many people like the element of suprise and uncertanty.

Its no big deal.

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I think people jumped on the bandwagon of the views on The Angry Joe Show. Quite rightly he’s pointed out P2Win games, the obvious being the new Star Wars game where unlocking everything would take an estimated 3000 hours or $2100. Forza clearly doesn’t fall in to that category even if you were to buy all the DLC that speeds up completion (VIP/Car packs)

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I strictly divide between mode crates and other crates. Mod cards can help you to get more credits - much more than you pay for the cards - so it´s a good idea to have a large collection of mod cards to fit the best for every race. Since they reduce the prices for mod crates they´re even better value for money.

The “other” crates with cars and driver gears ? Well, if I had all cars and too much money… probably yes. But I´m still struggling to pay for the legendary cars plus the ones from the specialty dealer, therefore: no !
Most cars reappear after some time in the level-up rewards screen, so when I need it I go for the 50k credits. And I´m glad there are no locked cars in the crates, so there´s no need for “gambling”.
And I have to admit that my driver doesn´t change his clothes, mayby I should put in a washing day ?

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The loot boxes in this game are not part of the pay to win problem like BF2 in my opinion, but they are a way to get money from the players. The important part is, that you can access parts of the game early by using ingame-credits (and with realworld-money by buying the ingame-credits in the future), but you do not gain an advantage by buying them. So it’s not a pay2win-problem in F7, it’s a lock 120 cars of the promised 700 behind several walls (like Forzathons, Spec-Dealer etc.) and not telling this before release date. It’s a build a game around loot boxes design-approach-problem instead of a maximes-game-fun-design. The need to implement a loot box-system is a fundamental problem even without the pay2win-aspect, because it limits the gamedesigners in their possibilities to maximies the fun-aspect of their games. Look at BF2: You don’t play a level or two to get a special weapon you want to have. You play games in 2017 to get a resource to buy a loot box to win an item you hopefully wanted to have. It’ also a gambling-addiction-problem, because T10-game-designer uses the same addiction-mechanics slotmachine-designer use to get money from their addictive players.
What most players not see, who tell that in F7 no cars are locked behind lootboxes: Driver gear and - the worst but most unimportant part - badges are locked behind loot boxes and when you can buy ingame-credits to open these crates, addictive player will spend money to collect all badges. It’s a design approach to get money from addictive players and it’s no help to say, you do not need to spend realworld-money.

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I don’t know about everybody, maybe some people do hate them because it’s “cool”, but I see a lot of good reasons why they’re a bad addition to this game. Loot boxes don’t have to be pay to win to be a terrible idea either. Just because FM7’s form of them isn’t as bad as other games, it doesn’t make them acceptable.

If Turn 10 had no way to monetise the loot boxes do you honestly think we’d see them in this game?

They confirmed they would add microtransactions to the game, loot boxes and driver suits added for the first time is too big a coincidence. The “Best value”/“Popular!” tags on the boxes also seem like messages you’d see on a free Android game. Why would they have those tags if Turn 10 didn’t intend on selling them for real money?

Maybe the Turn 10 devs could learn a thing or two from Ian Bell Screenshot - 555b69f6f7165e4461f2b92fb25e0a27 - Gyazo (it’s a discussion about loot boxes on the PC2 forums)

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And we are off again.

I like the Expert and Master Mod crates I buy with CR and get good value. If I decide I don’t like them or the method to make them available changes then simple I won’t get them. If T10 wish to make more money then it is quite easy for them to do so by releasing more tracks and cars via DLC with a lot less fuss tbh. I see some people on here that have indicated they like the Driver Gear and have made it part of their game experience to collect them all and the badges etc. I should be able to just buy the gloves cheaper because that is all I see in cockpit view and I could save a fortune. If T10 decide to make these items, Loot Crates etc available via paid tokens then I have choices but don’t see why I should be making that choice for others that would not mind paying to get things since that really is none of my business.

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