Is this legitimate "rubbing"?

When I race online, I try to drive in a completely non-contact manner, like you would in real life if you had to pay for damage to cars. I don’t always succeed, but I drive to try to achieve that. What happens a lot is I get bumped down the field by people who don’t drive in the same way, so they come inside my line on a bend at a speed that means they cannot possibly turn with the same radius as me, they collide with me, pushing me wide of my line, meaning I have to slow down to take the bend, and they’re through. I then can’t get the place back if I’m not willing to do the same thing, even if I can lap significantly faster than them on an empty road.

I can’t really post a video from my races to illustrate this as my video editing skills aren’t up to the task of removing the names, but I figure it’s okay to post this as the driver himself published the video:

Now that is very mild compared to what I’m talking about, but he’s still happy to make contact when I’d avoid it. So he goes down the inside of the green car after the green car has already turned in and is committed to that racing line. If I were in his position, I would go off the track on the inside to avoid contact with the green car, that would slow me down, and the overtake probably wouldn’t succeed. Instead, he collides with the green car, pushing the green car wide, ruining its line so it has no choice but to go wide onto the grass, slow down, and concede the place.

Should I simply change my mindset to regard that sort of thing as acceptable, and do it to other people like they do it to me? I have noticed that there are some extremely good drivers who also seem to try to drive completely non-contact, so I’m reluctant to lower my standards, but at the same time it’s really really annoying to just get repeatedly bumped down the field by people who I know would be slower than me if it were ghost racing.

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I drive like it’s a video game and first place belongs to me. I don’t PvP anymore, but in my younger days when I did if I was seriously interested in winning, I’d do whatever the game let me do to win. In my experience, if you don’t get the other guy first they’re likely to get you. Don’t treat it like a sport, treat it like a street fight.

Well personally I’m like you, I try to avoid contact or at least ensure it doesn’t disrupt the other driver. In real racing there is the 1/2 alongside rule when going for the optimal racing line. If the nose of the attacking inside car is past 1/2 way alongside, then the defender should give way. If the nose is less than 1/2 alongside, then the attacker should give way, if it’s too close to call and the attacker is about 1/2 way alongside, a collision means both are at fault, however, ultimately in the real world collisions are avoided to minimize damage to the car. Even in NASCAR damage to the body panels can negatively impact aerodynamics. Rubbing in racing is actually very light contact.

I try to follow the 1/2 way rule and in some cases even if I have the line will back off and pass another way. Unless it’s the last turn, if you are substantially faster driver, you’ll get another opportunity to pass. Mind you backing off sucks on some curves because of how much speed you lose on the next straight.

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I try to allways race as clean as possible, but when races are not ghosted it’s really bad sometimes how easily you end up going wide even in small rubbing just like in that video, m-b driver makes small mistake leaving inside corner that open and that case it’s cost him almost 2 seconds (but in some places that small contact can ruin race for you because most races are so short). And i mutch raither take that somebody overtake me like that raither than crashing back of my car. But also when watching something like rallycross or touring car races those are not totally contact free either when drivers fight really hard for the position.

In this particular instance, I don’t really see an issue–TizMark was taking a middle-to-outside line, then attempted to transition to an inside line as the faster Johnson was moving to overtake. There’s a moment at approximately 1:13 where you can clearly see TizMark alter their line, either to cut off Johnson’s overtake or as an attempt to rescue an untenable line without slowing. It was an aggressive move on Johnson’s part, but the line was clean and didn’t look like a dive, and contact was technically initiated by TizMark–an opinion they seemed to share, given the attempt to break off contact rather than push back to hold the line.

At 1:13, I can stop it on a frame where TizMark is pointed directly at the perfect line to the apex of the bend, and Johnson’s car has no overlap at all. So to me, at that point, that line belongs to TizMark. The dynamics are obviously a bit different when it’s a private session run by a youtuber and people want to be able to continue to race with those people.

As I said, though, that is actually a very mild example compared to what I could post from my own races. I have a friend who agrees with Ti Hsien, that you should do anything the game lets you do to finish as high up as possible. If every other racer had that attitude, I’d have no qualms about doing the same, but I have observed that many really good drivers race like true gents, and I’d hate to start banging into them with that sort of attitude. I had one adventure where there was another driver who was a little better than me, and he raced perfectly clean. We had some good periods of very close racing where we both gave the other room and never forced each other off the track. But there was one guy in the adventure who was wallriding, so this other driver, who was in a '17 Raptor, crushed the wallrider against the wall at every opportunity. So one second he’d be smashing the other guy into a wall, the next second he’d be racing totally clean against me. I’d just rather be on the clean racing side of that situation than initiate a tit for tat ramming battle.

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That’s actually pretty mild contact.
Of course, the video is recorded in a fairly well controlled environment, Fortune Island, where you won’t face random online players.
I play pvp because the leveling/money generation is faster.
I spend most of my race fighting someone off my bumper or doing my best to avoid becoming their break pedal.
This drastically reduces mine, and their, lap/race times. Yeam Adventure is a bit better now that most of the wreckers and bangers are smashing each other into single player glory.
But yeah, that’s mild and even expected contact in conpetitive racing. Gonna bump uglies once in awhile going that fast, it just comes down to intentional vs hey, I’m cutting this corner tighter.

Everyone has different ideas of fun and intended sport. Some races are constant wallriding and ramming, some races are almost perfectly clean. Thanks to network lag there will almost always be some contact. Unless I start in 1st or second and run away with the lead immediately, I know where the adventure is going to fall on that spectrum by the first couple corners.

The green GT-R in OP’s video sent himself off the track. For how fast Johnson passed him, I’m surprised he couldn’t find the grip to stay on the road (had to have been a handling car).

I raced a few ISAD drivers once. They were all fast and respectful. I am happy to lose to truly good drivers. I’ve also been rammed off the road at 180mph by high-level teams.

I try to treat everyone as well as they treat me. I have taken revenge on rammers by throwing their race into a tree, or “wall pinch overtaking” them 2 corners after they did the same to me, or a teammate–if that’s their sport, I’ll play. I don’t attack unprovoked. Sometimes accidents happen and I try to give space or even my place to let them know I’m sorry.

If you watch real life racing you will see the same rubbing and passing technique is used pretty often. In the video below the car ends up in the grass in the same manner only to return the favor and put the other car out wide and in the grass shortly after.

If happens in real life racing I assume when it happens in here it would be considered realistic?

“rubbing is racing” Its been this way forever and is considered exciting racing.
All real life race cars wear battle scars, I know because I used to sponsor a race car in the form of free paint work and had to touch it up after every event due to trading paint!

This game awards a skill for trading paint, I would assume if it is encouraged it would be considered appropriate to do so in a realistic manner. (Not crossing the line to ramming)

I do however agree to be on the receiving end of it in game would be frustrating if it is constant and should be avoided - your video shows a race where it happened only once in a very real life manner.

Seems Legit to me

Nothing to see here folks. Being rammed off track by a team member just before a checkpoint in Team Adventure would be much worse. The in-game mechanics allow for this, and the devs are probably fine with it, else PGG/T10 would implement some penalty system.

Blocking significantly faster drivers and intentional ramming are the only things that irk me. Going 2- or 3-wide through a corner, especially after network lag, some contact is expected. If pad steering was more responsive it would be easier to avoid contact 100%, though that might make network lag more of a problem.

I’m not a great racer but always try to race clean usually to my detriment.
example here
In solo mode whole other story those Drivatar’s are aggressive and u have to be to have a chance, think this is the route cause of the problem people start playing in solo then carry on the same when unlock multi really hope we get ghosted MP sooner the better can then take the line I want to take every time without having to worry about spoiling anyone else’s race

ghosted multplayer is the best unless the game makers implement very good dedicated servers. Even a bunch of clean racers are going to have latency issues causing cars to glitch and warp even if only slightly spoiling racing lines and possibly causing crashes. I wouldnt be surprised if local dedicated servers are used for racing esports events so that latency is eliminated and the player skill becomes the sole defining factor.

At least ghosted racing puts the win/lose solely in the hands of each driver. The driver who can brake better corner faster and accelerate quicker will be the winner with no gimmicks or immaturity on the part of others to spoil things

Sorry, but I love sliding off the other cars around a bend.

Hopefully Turn 10 will create a bumper car version for the crashers. I’m looking forward to the penalty system in future versions.

I try to drive as clean as possible, especially since its generally faster… but due to viewpoint limitations, position reporting lag/inaccuracy, physics/car tweaking, and just the nature of it being a game (with more than 0 quirks and bugs), I also drive with the understanding that some contact is inevitable.

I don’t think you need to lower your standards per se, just don’t go full on rammer… show respect, leave the other player a car width (if you see them of course), and don’t try to send it at full throttle up the inside of every corner while using the other player’s door as a makeshift steering assist. As for the guy who rammed the wall rider - I can’t legitimately say I’ve never gotten ticked enough to exact a bit of revenge myself, but in general I don’t really subscribe to the ‘if you cant beat them join them’ mindset. IMHO Don’t worry too much about the people around you hitting walls, just drive your race to the best of your abilities - the only adjustments I make in online vs say rivals is taking narrower lines in sharp corners to try and avoid the players trying to use my door as their turn point. Sure its not the fastest line, but its a lot faster than being at the bottom of a dog pile.

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i also find multiplayer frustrating, i have no problem with guys who rams a little, but i have the often guys who hits guys in turns who brakes and theys drive with full speed in these guys, like this video: Forza Horizon 4 - Brand New Game, Same Old Rammers - YouTube (start looking at 30 sec)

and the other group are wallriders, this sucks, useless to play, just frustrating

Never thought my private lobby recording sessions in which we simply have some fun would be the subject for such a topic. :smiley:

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And to be clear, my point wasn’t to have a go at you, your clip was just useful as about the mildest possible example of what pretty much everyone is now doing. I’ve given up trying to race non-contact, there’s just too many people willing to bump you in corners, you end up near the back of the field. However, this is the other extreme, and going this far is still fairly rare among players at the moment, so I have no plans to copy this unless I encounter someone who I can clearly see driving like this themselves:

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well since its a video game … its down to the devs to design the game to prompt players to play a certain way … GTs prompt to play clean via severe penalties and ghosting … forza horizon 4 prompt nothing … so players do want they want … and a lot of players see ramming and wallriding as a legitimate tactic

if the devs want to limit these behavior … they have a lot of tools at their disposal

exp : smart ghosting … that ghost players that can mess up the race like those who dont brake in corners or ram others will turn ramming into a non viable tactic to win … some for high friction walls and wallriding (FH1 is a good exemple)

but as we ve seen … PGG is designing there game toward casuals GTA style racing … who appeal more to the casuals crowd

FH4 is just not a game for us (because i have the same mind set then u)