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Rank: Racing Permit
User is suspended until 11/22/2041 10:48:55 AM(UTC)
#76 Posted : Wednesday, February 12, 2014 6:46:57 PM(UTC)
I use the same Math then feel to get things just right.

Worm, How the heck do you get that boat feeling out of the front end? I've tried everything and nothing seems to help. It sways back and forth.
Rank: Moderator
#77 Posted : Wednesday, February 12, 2014 11:40:35 PM(UTC)
Without math.....lol. Seriously don't handicap yourself to something like that. Your original spring weights in the car when you apply race springs mean more than the weight of the vehicle than anything else though they are somewhat tied together.

Depends on what's causing your car to feel like a boat. Would need more information than just blindly throwing darts and messing everything up.

Edited by user Thursday, February 13, 2014 8:09:34 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rank: R-Class Racing License
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#78 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 7:55:04 AM(UTC)
You guys realize that being able to identify what is wrong with a tune, and then being able to fix it. Would work better than any math. I.E car is understeering on a high speed corner, I need to fix for understeer for a high speed corner, which may be different than understeer in a low speed corner. These mathematically set up cars usually don't outperform cars tested and tuned through trail and error. You can't calculate for a good build, compared to a near perfect build. Nor can you calculate knowledge of a track and it's characteristics. There is more to be gained from just spending time in a car on a track or two then can be gained from using math for everything.

Using math or a calculator seems to be a lot of wasted energy and a missed opportunity to learn tracks. The end result never beats out the tried and true method of feel and trial and error.


Top 1% in Forza, isn't like referring to wealth in real life or IQ. It means you have a long way ahead of you.
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#79 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 8:12:26 AM(UTC)
Rank: Racing Permit
#80 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 8:32:51 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ECT Loco UBoG Go to Quoted Post
You guys realize that being able to identify what is wrong with a tune, and then being able to fix it. Would work better than any math. I.E car is understeering on a high speed corner, I need to fix for understeer for a high speed corner, which may be different than understeer in a low speed corner. These mathematically set up cars usually don't outperform cars tested and tuned through trail and error. You can't calculate for a good build, compared to a near perfect build. Nor can you calculate knowledge of a track and it's characteristics. There is more to be gained from just spending time in a car on a track or two then can be gained from using math for everything.

Using math or a calculator seems to be a lot of wasted energy and a missed opportunity to learn tracks. The end result never beats out the tried and true method of feel and trial and error.


Well this isn't aimed to start a fight .. but .. just because I use math doesn't mean I don't drive the **** outta the car on a track to test it .. using math gives me a starting point for numbers .. I know that starting with a 45 to 50 % Spring rate .. is gonna give me a stiff spring setting to start with .. and I USE the Telemetry pages to help with camber and tire pressure .. there is math involved in everything . just because Worm is a well known tuner doesn't mean that because he doesn't use math means we all need to stop using math .. there are a few drives I have faced off with in lobbies with cars that were just insane and when I would talk to them about their tunings .. they give me how they come up with spring numbers and dampers and its the same math I use . Its not a handicap if you actually adjust the numbers .. those stock spring numbers a junk a majority of the time ..I have seen cars with over 55% bias and the spring settings had more weight in the back which is not supposed to be . the Front Bias is how much weight and that in turn means more spring in the front. So for those of you using math .. that still means those numbers are not the end all on the car .. they should be adjusted for the most part .. when I do tunes .. I end up doing 40 50 laps in a car before I am done with it.. and I change my tunes often .. because I am about lobby tuning more than specific track tuning .. I do have a few specific track tunes .. but those only come when I am doing rivals events ..
Again not trying to start any hate .. but as I kept reading it seemed like the thread was moving in a direction from everyone kinda bouncing ideas off eachother to Worm telling us we are all wrong because we don't tune like him .. and that's not fair because Cars are an extension of our self .. not an extension of Worm If everyone bought the same civic tune from worm and raced .. not everyone would be as fast as worm in that tune ..
Worm I follow you just to let you know cuz as a tuner I do respect the time you put into this game and how good some of your cars are ... but I had to speak up here
Rank: R-Class Racing License
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#81 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 8:59:42 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: SKATEMASTERFLEX Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ECT Loco UBoG Go to Quoted Post
You guys realize that being able to identify what is wrong with a tune, and then being able to fix it. Would work better than any math. I.E car is understeering on a high speed corner, I need to fix for understeer for a high speed corner, which may be different than understeer in a low speed corner. These mathematically set up cars usually don't outperform cars tested and tuned through trail and error. You can't calculate for a good build, compared to a near perfect build. Nor can you calculate knowledge of a track and it's characteristics. There is more to be gained from just spending time in a car on a track or two then can be gained from using math for everything.

Using math or a calculator seems to be a lot of wasted energy and a missed opportunity to learn tracks. The end result never beats out the tried and true method of feel and trial and error.


Well this isn't aimed to start a fight .. but .. just because I use math doesn't mean I don't drive the **** outta the car on a track to test it .. using math gives me a starting point for numbers .. I know that starting with a 45 to 50 % Spring rate .. is gonna give me a stiff spring setting to start with .. and I USE the Telemetry pages to help with camber and tire pressure .. there is math involved in everything . just because Worm is a well known tuner doesn't mean that because he doesn't use math means we all need to stop using math .. there are a few drives I have faced off with in lobbies with cars that were just insane and when I would talk to them about their tunings .. they give me how they come up with spring numbers and dampers and its the same math I use . Its not a handicap if you actually adjust the numbers .. those stock spring numbers a junk a majority of the time ..I have seen cars with over 55% bias and the spring settings had more weight in the back which is not supposed to be . the Front Bias is how much weight and that in turn means more spring in the front. So for those of you using math .. that still means those numbers are not the end all on the car .. they should be adjusted for the most part .. when I do tunes .. I end up doing 40 50 laps in a car before I am done with it.. and I change my tunes often .. because I am about lobby tuning more than specific track tuning .. I do have a few specific track tunes .. but those only come when I am doing rivals events ..
Again not trying to start any hate .. but as I kept reading it seemed like the thread was moving in a direction from everyone kinda bouncing ideas off eachother to Worm telling us we are all wrong because we don't tune like him .. and that's not fair because Cars are an extension of our self .. not an extension of Worm If everyone bought the same civic tune from worm and raced .. not everyone would be as fast as worm in that tune ..
Worm I follow you just to let you know cuz as a tuner I do respect the time you put into this game and how good some of your cars are ... but I had to speak up here


Math is quantifiable correct? Same with scoreboards and lobbies. What you have to realize is that 50 laps of driving a not so good tune creates habits of "driving around the flaws in the tune". Not knowing how fast(pushing the car) through the key corners on a track will negatively impact your tune. There isn't a math for that. There unfortunately isn't a formula that will help you create a better tune or a base tune that is really quantifiably better than someone who knows the track and how to attack it. I'm not saying don't use your math. I'm demonstrating why your math will fall short. I had a guy who would nag me non stop to try his calc tunes. He never could get it right with his math and was short changing himself by NOT driving against the fastest drivers to learn, wait for it. How to drive the car correctly. I know it's mind blowing to think the guys in the top 10,or top 250 might know how to drive despite probably not knowing how to multiply. Repeatedly driving a car poorly around a track is of no benefit. Learning to drive the car correctly around a track is of great benefit. It will improve both your driving and tuning. And it can be quantified.

Math and cacls leave out to much that is learned from other areas of driving. Everything builds on each other, I run Sebring Short, I learn where to drive harder, where to be smoother and where to brake earlier or later, get back on throttle sooner or later, etc,etc. I then build and tune the car around that information. You can't short track that. The time wasted on math, if put towards learning how to drive fast would be more beneficial to you. But as always there is this dying need to be real world correct and use math. Kind of like diet pills, lose the weight without the work. How has that fared?



Top 1% in Forza, isn't like referring to wealth in real life or IQ. It means you have a long way ahead of you.
Rank: Moderator
#82 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 9:32:41 AM(UTC)
Loco has been playing Forza and tuning good cars longer than I've even known about the game. He doesn't "tune like me" he tunes like himself. There have been people tuning cars at high levels for longer than I've had the game and there are very, very few if any at all that used math. The only one I can think of is XtremeSkills and he still knew what he was doing.

If you are running off weight bias and have tuned 100 cars in this game you may have 2 that are correct by pure chance only. The weight bias calculations you are doing are wrong and starting you out bad, that's what you don't understand. You doing that is like fighting Mike Tyson with one arm, you aren't going to fare very well 30 seconds into your ordeal.

Weight bias in a car is correct in one situation, when the car isn't moving. Your entire denial of everything when people are trying to do nothing but help you out is why I never open source a thing. I'd just be told I was wrong before you ever got in the car.
Rank: Racing Permit
#83 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 12:55:37 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: TG Wormburner Go to Quoted Post
Loco has been playing Forza and tuning good cars longer than I've even known about the game. He doesn't "tune like me" he tunes like himself. There have been people tuning cars at high levels for longer than I've had the game and there are very, very few if any at all that used math. The only one I can think of is XtremeSkills and he still knew what he was doing.

If you are running off weight bias and have tuned 100 cars in this game you may have 2 that are correct by pure chance only. The weight bias calculations you are doing are wrong and starting you out bad, that's what you don't understand. You doing that is like fighting Mike Tyson with one arm, you aren't going to fare very well 30 seconds into your ordeal.

Weight bias in a car is correct in one situation, when the car isn't moving. Your entire denial of everything when people are trying to do nothing but help you out is why I never open source a thing. I'd just be told I was wrong before you ever got in the car.


Well see that's why I said I didn't want to try to start any hate .. now you say the only time spring to weight bias is relevant is when the car isn't moving .. can u elaborate becuz im interested ...
only reason I say this is because I have used SCCA Spec Numbers on cars as well and all of them have the same trends in spring to weight Bias ..

as for the 50 laps .. I meant that sometimes ill drive a car like that .. now I am always doing hot laps and using the top 10 drives as Rival Times to beat .so I can drive against their Ghost ..and I also mentioned that I am never really done tuning a car .. because my feel is constantly changing as I get better at driving the tracks I get better at pushing the car a bit differently and when I choose a car I have tuned 2 months ago .. I notice ..the difference .. i will also mention again that the numbers my math gives me are starting points .. and far from cemented ..

Rank: R-Class Racing License
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#84 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 1:56:36 PM(UTC)
^^^^^ I understand how calc's work. I understand that they don't spit out a final tune. The disconnect here is we don't know how T10 and the developers created there math. How the PI, down force, weight, weight of certain parts are calculated. What does changing rim size do? How important is un sprung weight changing wheels compared to swapping a driveline? Why are stock transmissions seemingly better than race? Neither of us can explain any of this. Given that my point of view is as followed:

Given that there alots of guys who can post a 1% lap time. There very few who can do better than that. Even less who can run top 10. They intentionally or unintentionally through building and tuning cars usually discover the fastest cars. At that point everybody who is competitive and wants to win follows what is posted to the board and drives accordingly. I care not to discuss the merits of lb car to non lb car.
Those guys are the guys who most likely have the best understanding of how to go fast. There fore when they take the time to post they should not be met with hostility, nor the usual it's not how it works irl. We no matter how involved we get, are still playing a game with an unusual set of rules in relation to PI and physics that may or may not emulate real world laws. The bottom line is if you spend a lot of time with a calculator not knowing how T10 implemented given data in relation to PI and physics, you more than likely are spinning wheels. Where as asking questions and driving will more than likely get you further, quicker.

I checked forzastats you are above average and would more than likely speed up the process if you let the math go. Just MHO nothing more. No more posts from me this is for tuning questions so back on task.


Top 1% in Forza, isn't like referring to wealth in real life or IQ. It means you have a long way ahead of you.
Rank: S-Class Racing License
#85 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:30:53 PM(UTC)
I have to confess that I also use a calculator. It's made by Casio. I use it a lot while tuning because I can't calculcate ratios in my head. In all seriousness, I agree with pretty much everything Loco said. Math belongs in a textbook. You tune a car well through a combination of knowledge, skill and experience.
Having said that, there are worse places to start than using the standing weight distribution of a car as a guide to spring ratios and damping. In fact, I can't actually think of a better place. But once you jump in the car and drive it, all bets are off.
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User is suspended until 11/22/2041 10:48:55 AM(UTC)
#86 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:58:00 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: TG Wormburner Go to Quoted Post
Without math.....lol. Seriously don't handicap yourself to something like that. Your original spring weights in the car when you apply race springs mean more than the weight of the vehicle than anything else though they are somewhat tied together.

Depends on what's causing your car to feel like a boat. Would need more information than just blindly throwing darts and messing everything up.


Good Lord, I didn't mean to start a debate. I use math to get a base tune and then feel it out from there.lol

Anyway, Worm, After exiting a corner some cars tend to sway back and forth front right then left and feels like the rear is doing the same thing in the opposite manner. I'm just look for a cause. It handle fine in turn and straights are kind of wobbly.


Rank: Moderator
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#87 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 3:51:54 PM(UTC)
What car Murderous, I think I know what you are on about.
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User is suspended until 11/22/2041 10:48:55 AM(UTC)
#88 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:05:18 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: TG Wormburner Go to Quoted Post
What car Murderous, I think I know what you are on about.


BMW 1M 2011 B Class

Rank: Racing Permit
#89 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 8:20:58 AM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: ECT Loco UBoG Go to Quoted Post
^^^^^ I understand how calc's work. I understand that they don't spit out a final tune. The disconnect here is we don't know how T10 and the developers created there math. How the PI, down force, weight, weight of certain parts are calculated. What does changing rim size do? How important is un sprung weight changing wheels compared to swapping a driveline? Why are stock transmissions seemingly better than race? Neither of us can explain any of this. Given that my point of view is as followed:

Given that there alots of guys who can post a 1% lap time. There very few who can do better than that. Even less who can run top 10. They intentionally or unintentionally through building and tuning cars usually discover the fastest cars. At that point everybody who is competitive and wants to win follows what is posted to the board and drives accordingly. I care not to discuss the merits of lb car to non lb car.
Those guys are the guys who most likely have the best understanding of how to go fast. There fore when they take the time to post they should not be met with hostility, nor the usual it's not how it works irl. We no matter how involved we get, are still playing a game with an unusual set of rules in relation to PI and physics that may or may not emulate real world laws. The bottom line is if you spend a lot of time with a calculator not knowing how T10 implemented given data in relation to PI and physics, you more than likely are spinning wheels. Where as asking questions and driving will more than likely get you further, quicker.

I checked forzastats you are above average and would more than likely speed up the process if you let the math go. Just MHO nothing more. No more posts from me this is for tuning questions so back on task.


U checked my Forza Stats ? ..well thanx for the compliment if that was what it was .. I love playing this game ..and I do see what your saying ..you know all the numbers and 1001101101's in this game already just to get the car to feel as close to its real life counterpart .. me doing more math to tune it .. on paper would make no sense because only the guys at turn 10 know the actual math.

I think ill still stick with my math ... now I do not use a tuning calc .. those are two way different things .. tuning calcs are garbage .. just to throw that out there .. I just use my own equation I picked up from a science teacher who loved taking his Mustang to track days ...

Now Worm if you don't mind me asking .. Do you have a list of engine parts in order of what you add first as to last .. or is it dependent on the car itself .. because I did a few tunes the way you say not to add cams till last and no fly wheel .. and I do seem to be going a lot faster .. I never realized what the cams was doing to my accel.

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#90 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 10:36:22 AM(UTC)
If it loses weight and adds power use it
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#91 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 7:04:37 PM(UTC)
Originally Posted by: TG Wormburner Go to Quoted Post
If it loses weight and adds power use it

So what your saying is there is no List of top to bottom .. just No Cams or Fly wheel ... I notice that it seems like you said its more about accel then top speed .. so you mean focus on torque ?

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#92 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 8:14:08 PM(UTC)
No, if it loses weight and adds hp (power) then use it.

I'm not going to go through every upgrade, it's simple.

Aspiration also helps because it loses PI.
Rank: Racing Permit
#93 Posted : Monday, February 17, 2014 5:08:56 PM(UTC)
How does it Lose PI .. the only way I have seen an aspiration lose PI is if you swap the engine that loses a turbo .. or do you mean it lessens the PI value of the engine upgrades ?
Rank: Racing Permit
#94 Posted : Monday, February 17, 2014 5:09:07 PM(UTC)
How does it Lose PI .. the only way I have seen an aspiration lose PI is if you swap the engine that loses a turbo .. or do you mean it lessens the PI value of the engine upgrades ?
Rank: Moderator
#95 Posted : Tuesday, February 18, 2014 7:11:40 PM(UTC)
It adds weight and has less torque than other engine parts so it skews the PI more into it's favor.

Test things first, it will help you.
Rank: Driver's License
#96 Posted : Saturday, February 22, 2014 10:13:48 AM(UTC)
Pardon my ignorance, but in the "Cause and Effect" post, what do the "*" and "o" mean? I'm completely new to tuning cars.
Rank: Driver's Permit
#97 Posted : Friday, February 28, 2014 9:43:25 PM(UTC)
Lots of great info here thanks.

I'd just like to add, builds sometimes in d an c class its seems faster to run the car on stock springs with no rollcage to save PI.

Thanks again !
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#98 Posted : Tuesday, March 04, 2014 1:02:53 PM(UTC)
Mr Wormburner,

I've really enjoyed reading yours and others guides to help me get started tuning. Its really added depth to the game and made it that much more enjoyable. My tunes are still way to slow in the 'hoppers' and I've taken a liking to most of your setups with the primary focus on handling. With that being said, your setup and tune with the CRX Mugen for Catalunya School Circuit is incredibly fun to drive on that track. I'd like to understand how that car is setup for that track compared to most 'normalish' car setups. I hope I'm not encroaching on to trade secrets. I just think the comparison may help me understand differences in setting up cars for given tracks.

Thanks!
Rank: Moderator
#99 Posted : Tuesday, March 04, 2014 1:34:53 PM(UTC)
It really isn't set up any different. It is the same tune from the other CRX with a tiny change here or there. The main difference is the build and it has a race gearbox instead of the stock gearbox like the other one.

Thanks for the compliment!!!
Rank: Driver's License
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#100 Posted : Friday, March 07, 2014 11:39:38 AM(UTC)
Hey Worm,

I tend to use a lot of your different tunes and then try to see if your tune fits me...

Mostly the only class that I race is the C class and I am a very new player this being my first forza game. I am trying to understand the gearbox ratio...

How can I tune the gears to keep a nice speed without killing the higher gears? I have tired a few different ways and I tend to always kill the 5th and 6th gears...

I hope that this reply makes sense to others besides just to me.

I am currently working on "JEEP" to finish off the AFF. which should be done this weekend.. But I want to tune a Toyato GT85 next and would like a better understanding of the gearing if you have time.. I know you usually tune off of a feeling.. So is there a starting point when it comes to gearing?

Thanks,
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