Forzamotorsport.net Forums

I've been tuning up some old Euro-trash for my nightly B-Class assault and am having trouble reaching my benchmark goals. Using the benchmarks provided by the tuning setup screen, I am aiming for a 0-60mph time of 4.5 seconds or less and a 0-100mph time of 10.9 seconds or less while maintaining or exceeding 1.10g @ 60mph and 1.05g @ 120mph. Also important is a top speed of approximately 155-160mph 

Currently, the Italian Stallion is returning these numbers:

3.7secs   0-60

11.6secs   0-100

1.08g

1.05g

160mph top speed

Interesting to note is that I didn't pull these goals out of the air, they're the current stats of my 'grip first' 1969 Toyota 2000GT. I have another Toyota for Sunset Peninsula that pulls a 4.1 and a10.5, but it doesn't have the grip I need for any other track. The 'grip first' 2000GT beats its times everywhere else!

The Dino has the potential to be one of the fastest accelerating classics in the game. Last night I even stayed in front of a WRX in the drag race to turn one on Laguna Seca. If the mid-range acceleration can be improved without sacrificing too much grip, I think this car has a chance at running with the 'big dogs'.

 

I want to take a look. What is your build? My assumption is that the 10.9 0-100 time will take more HP. Don't know if there is room for it, though.

Post up a build so I can duplicate it.

Sounds fun.

DD

I won't be able to take a look at last night's Dino build for about 6 or 7 more hours. All I can remember right now is that I had around 230 lb-ft torque and approx 300hp. Strangely, the Toyota that I'm using as a target is right at 238hp & 238 lb-ft.

It's really easy to put together a Dino that has a 13 sec 0-100mph time. So far, I have seen it go as low as 11.454, but not without losing too much grip. The 0-60 time has been as low as 3.6, but once again, other goals weren't met.

It might be of some interest to QuickRank the Toyota against the Ferrari in various tunes. Restrictions would be simply PI700 as I intend the finished car to race online against all comers instead of building her for a more specific ruleset.

I can post sample builds later but the 2000GT isn't that hard to get right. Just build for grip and let her fly! The Dino, OTOH has become a jigsaw of upgrades...

That's cool. I won't be able to build until about 9:00 pm Central. Gonna grab that Dino and the Toyota, both.

I will let you know.

DD

Benchmark Build
Ferrari Dino 246GT
Benchmarks:

0-60   3.757
0-100   11.686
top speed   155.9

braking
101.1
271.7

cornering
1.09
1.06

Upgrades:
Race Exhaust
Race Block
Sport Intercooler
Race Turbo
Firestone Racing Tires
15" stock wheels
Full Race Platform & Handling (except no weight reduction)

Forza Wing

Settings:
Feuerdog v3 with tire pressures set between 30 & 31 psi
Final Drive 4.60

Benchmark Build
Toyota 2000GT
Benchmarks:

0-60   4.284
0-100   11.956
top speed   154.4

braking
100.3
265.3

cornering
1.10
1.07

Upgrades:
Street Intake
Race Exhaust
1G-GTE Powertrain Swap
Avon Racing Tires
215/55 R15
Full Race Platform & Handling (race weight reduction)

Motegi Trak_Lite 2

Forza Wing

Settings:
Feuerdog v3 with tire pressures set between 30 & 31 psi
Final Drive 3.76

The nice thing about the Dino build is that you won't be the last person to turn one unless you're in a truly bizarre room or there's a long straight-away. It's a wonderfully forgiving chassis for a mid-engine and transitions well from a a light drift into a full grip situation and back again. At this stage in the tuning process, I'm losing speed because of this. As I accelerate out of the turn, the car will enter a gentle drift and scrub speed instead of accelerating. The wing currently installed is only a band-aid for this problem.

What strikes me about the 2000GT build is the neutrality and stability of the car at the limit. It really shines on Maple Valley as it is able to settle into a line and accelerate earlier than any of my other B-Class cars. Of course, none of my B Class cars are AWD or Lotii or Peugeots, so my opinion is skewed somewhat. The car stops and turns well enough to stay within a second or two of the leaderboard cars that I've raced against but has a problem: It's usually the last car to turn one. It's hard to pass a bunch of early- apexing AWD turbo monsters in 3-4 laps, so you'll spend a lot of time on the brakes waiting for the guy in front of you to leave the door open in the turn, because you're not going to get him on the straight. As the last one to the party in turn one, you're also dodging whatever wreck is going on. If you're racing against more patient drivers, this usually happens in turn two.

My goal is to build the Ferrari into a car that can get to turn one fast enough to avoid the inevitable mess and contend for the lead by the middle of the third lap against Peugeots, Lotii and anything named Tommy Kaira. Right now the biggest obstacle is midrange speed.

Hoplee:

What strikes me about the 2000GT build is the neutrality and stability of the car at the limit. It really shines on Maple Valley as it is able to settle into a line and accelerate earlier than any of my other B-Class cars. Of course, none of my B Class cars are AWD or Lotii or Peugeots, so my opinion is skewed somewhat. The car stops and turns well enough to stay within a second or two of the leaderboard cars that I've raced against but has a problem: It's usually the last car to turn one. It's hard to pass a bunch of early- apexing AWD turbo monsters in 3-4 laps, so you'll spend a lot of time on the brakes waiting for the guy in front of you to leave the door open in the turn, because you're not going to get him on the straight. As the last one to the party in turn one, you're also dodging whatever wreck is going on. If you're racing against more patient drivers, this usually happens in turn two.

LOL!  That really is funny right there ;-)

I may have to get a look at these cars... I'm actually working on a B-Class E46 M3 at the moment.

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JEi Track Cars - The Best German Engineering in America

Muscle-Inc.net

I ran both cars through an informal QuickRank (Mugello Short, Road ATL Short & Tsukuba) last night with about 6 laps on each track. The 2000GT is the faster car when I'm driving by about 1 second spread over the three tracks. I should've recorded the first lap time as well as the fastest laps. I think the Ferrari may be quicker on lap one, cutting into the advantage that the 2000GT has over the course of the race.

Either way, the way they're tuned now, they're pretty close to each other, usually within 0.3 seconds. As an interesting aside, I drove my 67 Stingray (set up for Muscle Inc. specs) and ran Tsukuba just as quickly as I did with the little foreign trash! (the key to the Stingray is settings, the default one both suck and blow)

Interesting stuff - I've got both in B class tuned up to 700 and am having the same issues with the Dino..... find that the car is very softly sprung at the front and can't get the rear to hook up out of turns - just spins one of the rears up if you're too heavy on the power. Will post the stats on mine up when I get chance - would be good to see how anyone solves this.....

I want to get in on this, too. Hoplee, don't count me out just yet! I just get to get my desk cleared off...

DD

AndyD:

- just spins one of the rears up if you're too heavy on the power.

 

Have you tried the race differential?

 

 

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Third Shift Racing.

I've managed to move the benchmarks closer to my goals, but only slightly. I spent last night moving torque around to improve acceleration without sacrificing grip. The braking numbers are jumping around on me though. I think it's a little odd that I can get the braking numbers to vary by as much as 3 or 4 feet by just changing gearing.

 

Benchmark Build   v3
Ferrari Dino 246GT

Benchmarks:

0-60 3.727
0-100 11.421
top speed 161.7

 

with 100 lbs downforce (rear wing)

0-60   3.727

0-100   11.497

top speed 158.9

braking
101.1(±4')
271.7(±4')

cornering
1.09
1.06

Upgrades:

Race Exhaust

Race Ignition

Race Fuel

Race Block

Street Turbo

Street Intercooler

Sport Intake

Firestone Racing Tires
17" stock wheels
Full Race Platform & Handling (except no weight reduction)

Forza Wing

Settings:
Feuerdog v3 with tire pressures set between 30 & 31 psi
Final Drive 4.60

 

I've decided to add another dimension to this project in the hopes that it will make it easier for other classic car lovers to contribute. This addition is also in the interest of providing actual benefits to lap times because I don't trust a lot of the information that the game spits at me in the way of performance benchmarks. I've used them here as a rough yardstick to get the performance of an unknown car (Dino) closer to that of a known car (2000GT). Now I want to know how this translates into lap times.

Since the goal is to build a 'foreign' classic able to take on any car in any room, I've decided to apply the QuickRank system. Cars optimized using this system are flexible in application and will suit the project's goals perfectly. 

Cars will run hotlaps around Mugello Short, Road Atlanta Short and Tsukuba. The fastest lap times for each track will be added together, resulting in a car's total QuickRank. It should be interesting to compare these times to those already recorded by the Muscle Inc crowd.

List of 'Foreign Classics' (B Class & lower)

Ferrari Dino

Ferrari 250GTO

Mercedes 300SL

Jaguar E-Type

Porsche 1973 Carrera RS

Porsche 914/6

Toyota 2000GT

Datsun Fairlady Z

 

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Please respond if you have noticed any omissions. For now I have excluded cars from the 1980s but may reconsider. It's hard for me personally to think of the cars from that decade as 'classics'. Plus, the Lancia doesn't need my help! ;) Currently, my connection at home is down so I won't be able to post a time until tomorrow. I expect my total to come to 180-182 seconds (I'm not the fastest thing on wheels!)

If no one participates, I will continue to report the results of my own testing here. I get the feeling I've got some 'silent partners' around here that are interested in what I may find out...

PS: Help needed tuning the 'scrub' out of the Dino!

 

Just a quick update:

The switch to a street turbo and 17" wheels has had a positive effect on the 'scrub' issue but I'm still not running under a 1:01.8xx on Mugello Short. The target 2000GT time is 1:00.2xx. I feel that suspension tuning will help me reach that goal, but I'm not sure what I'll change first. Anyone else running a similar setup?

Just had a look at my cars in your list.... My Fairlady and GTO are both A class - Nissan is great but GTO needs work.... B class classics as follows

Dino

308hp/ 258lb ft/ 2161 lbs

4.08 to 60 / 12.2 to 100 / 155.6 Max

103.6 / 274.5 Braking

1.09 / 1.07 g

SL

366hp /342lb ft/ 2187 lbs

4.54 to 60 / 11.3 to 100 / 161.8 Max

106.3 / 292.1 Braking

1.03 / 0.99 g

2000 GT

265hp / 218 lb ft / 2043lbs

4.3 to 60 / 11.1 to 100 / 164.7 Max

103.9 / 280.5 Braking

1.05 / 1.01 g

Cold light of day the SL should murder the other two but really suffers in the turns - can't increase lateral g as no downforce - not played with springs etc yet. 2000 GT really easy to drive but v.easy to get knocked about during races as so light. Love the Dino - just sorting diff setting to hook up out of turns

You could try to reduce the rear bump or the front rebound just ticks. To stop the slide it sounds like it needs just a little more weight transfer on the rear tires. There are a few more things I can throw out here but I would like to take it one at a time. And please save this set up as a starting place.

Oh wait its already on the post. Whoops

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House of D2XL &
The Late Model Muscle Series

forza-tuning.net

I decided to help out a little. I guess I can get a couple tenths off the Poncho GTO until Mr. Roboto gives it a whirl. So I run a Fairlady, I'm lovin the SR 20. But still not up to the SS I ran for the QR.

T-   59.366
A-   60.399
M-   60.994
Tot 180.759

The crazy thing is I'm off a half sec of the SS at Tsukuba. I guess the wider rubber and more power make a difference getting off the turn.

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House of D2XL &
The Late Model Muscle Series

forza-tuning.net

I took the Dino in a little different direction last night as an experiment. The benchmarks aren't as impressive as the previous versions, but the lap times are better. I haven't completed the entire QuickRun process yet, but I did run a 59.250 at Tsukuba last night, a personal first for a RWD B Class car.

I'm very interested in seeing what a better driver can do with this setup. From comparing muscle car times, I know Drift should be faster than me. Given this setup, I think he would be. The 'scrub' has been eliminated and it's become a very predictable and consistent car as a result. 

It's not a typo, I really am running 18" stock wheels on this thing. It's possible I'm just duplicating the effects of stiffer springs and ARBs by using such a large wheel for this car. I just know that when I finally got this puzzle put together, it just felt 'right'.  

Benchmark Build v5

Ferrari Dino

0-60   3.874

0-100   11.913

top speed   160.2

104.1

276.7

1.10

1.07

Upgrades:

Sport Intake

Race Exhaust

Sport Ignition

Race Fuel

Race Block

Street Turbo

Sport Flywheel

Street Driveline

215/45R18 Avon

All race platform & handling except as noted above 

No weight reduction

Forza Wing

Settings: Camber -.8/ -.9

Toe: +.1/-.2

Caster: 5.6

Braking: 47% / 110%

Differential: 60 / 50

Downforce: 55lbs (minimum setting)

Final Drive: 4.60

All other settings default.

Tonight I'll try and apply some of the lessons learned from v5 to one of the faster versions.

I was wrong about never running less than a minute on Tsukuba in a B-Class RWD. Turns out I did it a while back in my little 'Bumblebee'. My best B-Class times for the QuickRank tracks are as follows:

Reference Times (from Scoreboard)

Tsukuba   59.117      914/6

Mugello Short      1:00.273     2000GT

Road ATL Short      59.453      2000GT

 

Note: All times were recorded in Multiplayer mode with all assists turned on. (I'm not hardcore like that.) I have run faster than these times in tuning sessions with my Eagle Talon, but I don't like racing it, so it's not on the boards. The Talon has broken a minute at Mugello Short and has plenty of room for improvement left. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing unpleasant about the car's handling or power. It's just hard for me to get excited about it. Same reason I don't own a Skyline, WRX , EVO, Lotus, Peugeot etc etc etc...