There are so many tuning tips out there, I thought I would attempt to open a discussion on technique, hoping to help Forza players who want to improve but really don't know what they're doing wrong.

From my own experience, and from observing others racing online, I firmly believe that most ascribed handling problems are actually errors in technique, and that many cars of ill-repute are actually upstanding citizens who have simply been treated badly.  So, following that assertion, lets diagnose a few common handling problems.  All are related to the problems our stupid powerful engines cause:

My rear wheel drive car oversteers when I get on the gas!

How to mitigate by tuning:
Lower your acceleration diff setting so the outside tire doesn't spin, making the back end break loose.  Add beefy tires on the rear.  Use TCS.

How to prevent by technique:
Be veeeery careful on the gas.  The reason you're spinning is because you're overloading the rear tires.  Your tires can only provide a specific amount of traction overall.  If your tires can supply 1.0G of grip, you can use that 1.0G to corner, brake, accelerate, or any combination of such.  But that 1.0G is not additive!

Imagine that your car accelerates at 0.5G in second gear and you can corner at 0.9G.  If you nail the gas while turning at 0.9G, your RWD car will immediately lose traction at the rear and spin, because you overloaded the tires to the tune of 1.4G.  Instead, SLOWLY apply the throttle.  As you climb from 0G acceleration to 0.1G you'll start to feel the car break loose (some cars are more sudden than others).  As you reach that threshold, back off the throttle slightly, and you're turning at maximum grip.  As you come out of the corner and your cornering G's drop from 0.9G to, say, 0.3G, you can apply more and more throttle, eventually going to full throttle.  This gradual application of throttle ensures you don't overload your tires.

Also note that your acceleration is stronger in lower gears, so while you might be able to take a fast corner at full throttle in sixth gear, you won't be able to do the same with a slow corner in first gear.

In summary, driving RWD requires very careful throttle modulation.  EASE onto the throttle.  EASE off the throttle.  This transition might take a half second or it might take two seconds, but you should never just go 100% throttle immediately unless you know your car has enough traction to handle it (ie: in fifth gear on a straight).  Patience is key.  Think of the throttle and steering as a see-saw.  The "higher" your steering input, the "lower" your throttle input.  A see-saw never has both ends high in the air, and similarly you should never apply high amounts of both throttle and steering.

With proper throttle control, even beastly cars like the Lingenfelter are easily controlled.

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My all wheel drive car understeers!

How to mitigate by tuning:
Shift power to the rear wheels.  Open your front diff to prevent your outside front from locking.  Add beefy tires.  Use TCS.

How to prevent by technique:
Understeer is, by definition, a lack of front traction that results in your car turning less than your inputs command.  But where did all your front traction go?  It got eaten up by your engine!  Like with RWD cars, AWD cars require careful throttle control.  But unlike RWD cars where you're likely to lose the back end as soon as you break traction, AWD cars are much more likely to spin the fronts, causing understeer.

AWD is not a license to keep the throttle to the floor like a rally driver.  AWD simply splits the acceleration duties amongst all four tires, giving you the ability to accelerate harder without losing traction.

The case where you most often get into trouble with an AWD car (versus RWD anyway) is exiting a corner.  Your car runs wide, and you curse AWD.  The error here is getting on the gas too early, too much, or both.  With AWD, your poor front tires not only have to stop and turn the car, they also have to accelerate the car.  Your front tires simply cannot do both at once to any significant degree.  The fix here is to make sure your fronts don't get overloaded.  You can do this by limiting your throttle inputs, and by running proper apexes.

As you pass through a corner, don't jump on the throttle!  Instead squeeze the throttle slowly as you cross the apex.  As you give the car more gas, you'll likely feel the car start to push wide.  As you let off the gas, you'll feel the front tuck in.  Modulate the throttle so you clip your apex and your car exits the corner using all the outside of the track.  You should be able to run a smooth line with no corrections and no on/off/on throttle transitions if you do it right.

The ability to dial in a lot of throttle on corner exit is your biggest advantage against RWD cars, so use it wisely!  Just don't get on the gas too soon, or you'll miss your apex.  Done properly, your AWD car should leap away from a RWD car in any corner where the RWD car has to dance on the throttle to avoid spinning the rears.

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My car understeers!

How to mitigate by tuning:
Soften your front suspension.  Stiffen your rear suspension.  Tighten your rear accel diff.  Loosen your rear decel diff.  Set brake bias to the rear.  Add front downforce.

How to prevent by technique:
Again, understeer is caused by overloading your fronts.  Assuming your car isn't an understeering pig due to poor tuning (and it probably isn't), this is most likely caused by a too-high corner entry speed.

Imagine you're in an Exige on a flying lap of Tsukuba.  You scream past the start/finish line and rise the crest into Turn 1.  You mash the brakes, then begin your turn-in to a late apex turn.  WTF!?  The Exige just ran wide mid-corner, leaving you on the outside of the turn sucking gravel!  Stupid Lotus!  They're supposed to have good handling!

What happened here is that you didn't slow down enough for the corner.  Again it's a case of overloading your front tires.  You either had too much speed, or you tried to turn while braking too hard.

"Slow in, fast out."  Repeat this mantra to yourself everytime you come to a corner.  A good acid test is to try to run the Suggested Line all around Tsukuba.  If you find you can't possibly keep up with the arrow's turning rate (particularly in the first and last hairpins), you're going too fast in the corners.  Slow down more and try again.  You should be able to easily hit the proscribed late apex on both turns, and keep your car centered on the suggested line through every turn.  (Not that the suggested line is always the RIGHT line...)

To make life easier as you start out, try braking early, and all the way down to your cornering speed BEFORE you turn in.  Coast through the corner until your car is pointed at the apex, then apply throttle gradually.  Done this way your car should have no problem making any corner without drama.  As you learn the corner you can brake a little later or even do the last part of the required braking as you enter the turn (known as "trail braking").  When you've got it down pat, your car should be on the limits of adhesion throughout the entire corner... first by braking, then braking and cornering, then by cornering and acceleration, then by acceleration.


All that said (whew!), please don't think I'm trying to minimize the importance of tuning.  On the contrary, tuning can turn a beast into a pussycat, and it can make a great car truly transcendent.  BUT, even the most finely-tuned car will handle poorly if the nut behind the wheel isn't tight.

So before you blame Turn 10 for making a poor simulation or completely mess up your suspension, first ask yourself "Is my driving style causing these problems?"  Introspection and ability to adapt is key to your improvement as a driver.  There is no better way to stagnate (and indeed to fall behind relative to your peers) than to presume that you are as good as you'll ever get, and any future improvement will come from improved tools.

Comments?  Additions?  Flames?  My hope is that this helps at least one person pay more attention to their driving style.  Every single driver in the world has room for improvement, but most of us spend more time improving our hardware than our skills.

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user - 0%
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Comment: Couldn't agree more.

Additions: None

Flames: Need them on my car. None needed here.

Sure will be glad when you get that  360 back! We need you in the challenges.

DD

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Muscle, Inc. -- "Smoke 'em if you got 'em!"

Folks, I am not able to answer PMs, sorry.

Well, aside from the fact that the information was right on, appropo to the type requests that have been flooding the board at a high rate of speed, and this post is a poster child for what this forum is supposed to be about - aside from all that, it is a good read.  Well done! 

$

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Forza-Tuning

Moo your right on the money.

90% of the time I think there is something wrong with the car, I'm what's wrong. Instead of running to get tires or downforce, try running the car as stock. I just won the C Class enduro, on hard, with the CTS-V, the highest PI car I was racing. I felt that I needed to work up my skill on how to drive a car to use its strong and weak points. I flubbed a few corners but still won by 5 secs. I wanted to test my driving vs. AI driving.

It takes awhile to get good skill. By not running for a band-aid to decrease your lap times, you become a better driver. When the car becomes the hold up for lower lap times, then its time to tune.

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House of D2XL &
The Late Model Muscle Series

forza-tuning.net

  Nice. Possible sticky?

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Keep it clean

It is stuckied, more or less...

$

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Forza-Tuning

Thanks guys!  I'm glad to know it's appreciated.  I hope this thread will help motivate people to look critically at their own driving.  It's not easy to improve yourself, but the benefits of improving your driving skills blows away any kind of performance enhancement you could make to the vehicle itself.

Drift's post reminds me of something that helped me greatly when I started playing racing sims: the unmodified car races.  I still remember that "Normal Car" series in GT1, where you had to beat that damn NSX with an untuned car.  As a newbie unable to handle a RWD car at the time I was hopelessly lost with the Viper (the fastest car able to compete in the series), and unable to simply buy mods to force a win.

I restarted the game and swore off ALL cars except RWD cars.  It took me weeks of practice with my Silvia--and later my Cerbera--to learn to drive RWD in GT1.  After a lot of effort I went from unable to keep a torqueless mile-long Silvia under control to dominating the field in my Viper.  It was valuable experience, too, because the skills I learned have applied to every racing sim I've played since, from GT2/3/4 to LFS to Forza.

Maybe the lesson I learned back then might aid others.  As an exercise, pick a car you have a hard time handling.  It might be the GT40.  Or the Chevelle.  Or a 911.  Now master it.  I don't mean just complete a lap of Tsukuba without spinning, but make it part of you.  Maybe tune it a bit so it's easier to drive (a bit of rear sway bar or brake bias adjustment, for example), but don't just tune the car so it's indistinguishable from your other cars.  What you want to do is learn the cars' tendencies.  Learn its failings.  And learn how to cope with it all until you can place the car anywhere on the track you want, within a tire width.  Learn how to keep that 911's big old butt in line.  Or how to keep the massive torque from a big block in check.  Whatever you do, don't give up on the car until it feels like an old glove.  You should be able to sense when the car is about to misbehave, and never be surprised by its behavior on the track.  Your precision should be measured not by if you can keep the car on the track, but how much of a rumble strip you use in any given corner.

I believe that sticking with a car that you find difficult to drive and learning how to handle it will help you greatly when driving any other car.  The importance of hard-fought experience cannot be overstated.  After you've muscled a stock GT40 around a couple laps of the Nurburgring without so much as a quiver from its rear end, you should be well-prepared to do the same for any garden-variety supercar or tuned sports car.

Incidentally, Blooze and DirtDriver have graced us with a wonderful venue to do just this.  If you have a hard time keeping powerful rear drive cars under control, check out the Muscle, Inc challenges in this forum.  It's a great playground to learn an old US muscle car inside and out, and hang out with some quality people in the process.

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"Slow in, fast out."  Repeat this mantra to yourself everytime you come to a corner.

Man, if more folks would learn this, turn 1 would be a much happier place!

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www.clanci.net

Mr Moo Moo,

That is the most sensible and useful post I have ever seen on these boards.

Absolutely agree with everything you said and love the way you said it.

All new members to the boards/game should be directed to read this post before being allowed to post anything themselves............

Cheers mate,

Pistol

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max sig img size 115h x 480w. Thanks

pistolpig:

Mr Moo Moo,

That is the most sensible and useful post I have ever seen on these boards.

Absolutely agree with everything you said and love the way you said it.

All new members to the boards/game should be directed to read this post before being allowed to post anything themselves............

Cheers mate,

Pistol

 

+1 great thread 

 i will give it a try for sure as ive been cursing my cars for understeering on corner entry

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excelent thread.

 

As has been said the stock races are very useful in helping you understand how to get the most out of a particular car setup, you don't have an advantage in tunning/speed so you have to drive faster. It also shows you very clearly how much time you can lose just by entering a corner to fast and going wide.

Thanks again for the kind words, everyone.

Please keep in mind that not all handling problems can be solved to altering your driving style, nor should they.  You're never going to make a minivan have the kind of turn-in you get from an Exige simply by driving properly.  But understanding the cause of your minivan's understeer and learning how to prevent it will not only make you faster in your stock minivan, but will also help you better tune your car.

There is of course no "perfect tune".  Tuning is all about compromises.  You're never going to get a well-tuned FWD car that gets loose on the gas, for example.  If you're really ham-fisted with the throttle in a FWD car, you'll probably end up understeering every time you get on the gas.  If you take that driving style into the tuning screen, you'll likely end up with a car that's extremely loose overall to compensate for your perception of "an understeering car".  You'll open the diff wide, you'll run an extremely stiff rear suspension, and you might even add lots of toe out in the rear.  Problem is, all of these settings might help mitigate your tendency to understeer when on the throttle, but your car will handle very poorly at all other times.  That front diff?  Have fun getting any power down!  That rock-solid rear?  Don't hit any bumps if you want your wheels to stay on the ground!  And the big toe out?  Don't sneeze when you're on the straights!

Some undesirable handling behaviors cannot be solved without completely compromising your tune.  You have to deal with them as a driver, instead.  For example, even the fastest FWD race car will understeer if you get on the gas too hard.  The key to tuning is to adjust all your settings so you're fastest overall.  That doesn't mean making some wild setup so your FWD car is neutral on throttle.  It means understanding that your front wheels are going to be your limiting factor, making a tune to cope with this issue (and possibly minimize its effect), then driving the car knowing that you have to take it easy on the front wheels.

Your well-tuned FWD car might not be able to put as much power down through the corner as your opponent's RWD car, but he also won't be able to mash the throttle on corner exit like you can.  In short, learn your advantages and disadvantages.  Exploit your advantages, and minimize your disadvantages.   Note I say "minimize" and not "eliminate", because there's no way you'll eliminate all your disadvantages through tuning.  There are no perfect cars.  Just perfect drivers.  (Or rather, perfect races run by excellent drivers.)

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Big Mooing Cow - this might be the best article ever written in the Racing Techniques forum. Not only should this be stickied, there should be some way to prevent someone from making a new thread in this forum before reading this.

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Really, Really good read. I learned a lot from this post thank you, I might have made a post before reading this but this has really helped me out thank you for the info!

Great read.. thanks now I can understand how to fix some problems Im having

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Maybe I'm wrong but this thread is threatening to move to page 2 and I feel a need to bump it cuz it's one of the better reads I've seen in here.

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Keep it clean

It's linked to in the top pinned post of the board, bud

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max sig img size 115h x 480w. Thanks

This is definitely one of the better threads. I was always haveing problems with RWD, but it really helped explain why this was happening, and that is exactly what I needed. Thanks a lot. : )