Can someone go and build an AWD car and a RWD car with the same power and weight and then drag race them? It is commonly known that AWD bogs down off the line.

TG was just an example. 

The point is, just like in previous FM's, AWD will dominate most things. A drag strip should be where RWD finally gets to be glorified, but it'll probably be pushed aside because of a shitty surface simulation, where, once again, AWD will dominate. 

I will say that AWD is more consistent and easier to launch, but there are simply more parts that need to start moving and they bog down the engine. It's like putting brakes on the tranny and front wheels of a RWD car. I can't make it any simpler.

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Redline Tuning Founder & Head Tuner

A RWD will get away quicker than a AWD generally but because in Forza 2 the opposite was the case many seem to take it as fact.

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Vanished
Along with 250TR, M1, DB5 & 131 Abarth?

On a proper Drag-strip, they add a kind of glue to the surface for the first hundred meters or sometimes all the way to the end.

This means that there is tonnes of grip and that is what makes those amazing starts possible.

Funny story actually, but it's so sticky, that at one of the danish airports used as strips, which had been cleaned after use 2 weeks earlier, a pilot in a C130 Hercules landed. On landing the planes front-tire blocked. This caused DASU (Danish member of the FIA) to disallow glue on all danish strips, which were also used as airports.

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The fact that I am still alive after 100,000 laps is my championship - Jacky Ickx


Ahhhnoold says: Click it! Naaooow!!!

AWD cars either bog or break of the line.

There is a small window in between those two options where a great driver can make something work.... but for the rest of us..... bog or break.

Unless of course you are running some heavy-duty AWD system/drivetrain that is, generally speaking, far from stock. In this case the AWD car would be able to launch at a higher rpm without detonating anything.

 

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"Forza Motorsport 3: game so good no sexy lady can divert."

Ade182:

A RWD will get away quicker than a AWD generally but because in Forza 2 the opposite was the case many seem to take it as fact.

I realized that too. People fail to realize that FM2 is just a simulation and that it isn't anywhere near perfect. RWD gets off the line faster in FM2 because you can't launch properly and many physics are missing. Even on a normal race track a RWD car could pull away faster, because you can't just mash the gas in real life in an AWD car. It'll break. It needs to be babied or you'll destroy things, like the clutch. Imagine running into a wall. That's the AWD's engine trying to move all the parts of the car that are at a stand still when you drop the clutch.

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Redline Tuning Founder & Head Tuner

Polish Person:

Don't flame me if I'm wrong, cause I might be.

After reading the IGN interview with Dan about drag racing, I was surprised by one of his responses. He said that in an 1/8th mile drag race, AWD cars would probably have an advantage over other drive types.

The reason this surprises me is because it would only be true if the track had absolutely no grip and other drive types just sat there spinning rubber. As we all know though, a drag strip should feel like it's covered in glue and just about anything should hook up instantly. In real life, AWD would bog down off the line with all of its components compared to RWD.

Someone can feel free to correct me, but I always thought this was common knowledge. Like on Top Gear where an R8 and a Carrera raced and the R8 was horribly bogged down off the line because of it's AWD.

Bugatti Veyron: 530PS per ton, 0 to 100kph in 2.5 seconds, AWD.

Mclaren F1: 550PS per ton, 0 to 100kph in 3.2 seconds, RWD.

 

'nuff said.

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Don't compare real life to FM3.

Real life racing has tons of regulations and it's all about making the cars as good as possible within them.

In FM3 cars are regulated by the PI which is determined by a perfect lap around a test track (not ingame).

Ade182:

A RWD will get away quicker than a AWD generally but because in Forza 2 the opposite was the case many seem to take it as fact.

Correct.  People should stop to consider the fact that above the stock classes of drag racing there are very few AWD drag cars.  There are some, but there are even more FWD cars in the modifed tuner classes than AWD. 

You get into the higher end pro ranks and everything is RWD.  If AWD was as superior as some here think we'd have Top Fuel AWD cars.

Below is a pic of the last time AWD was attempted in one of the top ranked classes of the day (Gas Dragster).  It is Tommy Ivo's 4-engined AWD gas dragster. It ran 9.14 @ 171mph , a time that wouldn't be close to good enough for RWD Pro Stock today.

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IFCA Endurance series 2, 6, and 8 Champion
IFCA Stock Car series 1 Champion
GamingExtreme Challenge 5th
IFCA World Ranking 102nd

Two potential reasons why the AWD might bog down:

1- increased rotational inertia.

2- the car is power limited as opposed to grip limited. 

if the car has enough power to put to the ground to maximize the tractive capacity of the tires, and overcome the extra rotational inertia, it should hook up well.

to make a statement that AWD would be slower off the line than RWD or vice versa is too general a stance because there's way, way too many variables involved. The factors that affect straight line acceleration are:

1- available power at driven wheels.

2- tractive capacity of driven wheels.

3- vehicle weight

4- Rolling resistance

5- component rotationa inertia.

6- aerodynamic drag (non applicable, here)

Other factors that would affect the car's accelertion compared to the car next to it are things like the vehicle's track and wheelbase. Longer wheelbase cars have a launch advantage on the drag strip. Suspension geometry, (more specifically, anti-squat geometry built into the design). then there's the rotational mass of the driveline, as well as the unsprung mass (wheels, tires, lower control arms, etc). obviously the lighter these components, the better.

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Polish Person:

Ade182:

A RWD will get away quicker than a AWD generally but because in Forza 2 the opposite was the case many seem to take it as fact.

I realized that too. People fail to realize that FM2 is just a simulation and that it isn't anywhere near perfect. RWD gets off the line faster in FM2 because you can't launch properly and many physics are missing. Even on a normal race track a RWD car could pull away faster, because you can't just mash the gas in real life in an AWD car. It'll break. It needs to be babied or you'll destroy things, like the clutch. Imagine running into a wall. That's the AWD's engine trying to move all the parts of the car that are at a stand still when you drop the clutch.

 

I hate to start a post this way (pretty much killing part of my argument). My brother has a Talon Tsi. He blew the head gasket. He had the entire engine rebuilt and threw an Evo III turbo on it pushing between 16 - 20psi (he has a manual boost controller). He rebuilt the transmission with level10 and got a stage II clutch. It cost him maybe 4k to do everything since he installed everything himself.

 Anyways to the point. I can mash the gas in his car. You feather the clutch a little when you launch, but you definitely mash the gas. I won't break. I doesn't need to be babied at all. An all-wheel-drive system is not like running into a wall. That's just a little exaggerated, wouldn't you say? Yeah, it is more parts for the engine to move, but there is still no more shock involved than with a RWD system. Either way, the engine is using it's power to speed up the transmission. It's like pulling a brick on a blanket. You put twice as many bricks on the blanket and it takes a little more energy to move them, but there isn't any more shock.

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I'M KENNY POWERS, AND I'M VERY UPSET WITH THE WAY I'M ACTING RIGHT NOW!
I've got nothing inside me besides bad, horrible, sucky, baddiness. I even speak suckily - Christopher Titus

Ty4on:

Polish Person:

Don't flame me if I'm wrong, cause I might be.

After reading the IGN interview with Dan about drag racing, I was surprised by one of his responses. He said that in an 1/8th mile drag race, AWD cars would probably have an advantage over other drive types.

The reason this surprises me is because it would only be true if the track had absolutely no grip and other drive types just sat there spinning rubber. As we all know though, a drag strip should feel like it's covered in glue and just about anything should hook up instantly. In real life, AWD would bog down off the line with all of its components compared to RWD.

Someone can feel free to correct me, but I always thought this was common knowledge. Like on Top Gear where an R8 and a Carrera raced and the R8 was horribly bogged down off the line because of it's AWD.

Bugatti Veyron: 530PS per ton, 0 to 100kph in 2.5 seconds, AWD.

Mclaren F1: 550PS per ton, 0 to 100kph in 3.2 seconds, RWD.

 

'nuff said.

Nuff said?

Not really.

 

Bugatti doesn't care if they break their own car so they are free to run that car as hard as possible in order to get that super low number. I suggest you go watch the Top Gear clip where the Mac F1 races the Veyron in Dubai in order to see what happens in a real world situation (as crazy as that sounds).

Regardless... RWD technology has certainly improved in the 15+ years since the F1 was designed (diametrically opposed half-shafts, magnetic suspension that shifts to help the car launch...). Gordan Murray was once quoted as saying that the F1 wouldn't need more than 700hp to beat the bug in a straight line thanks to its power to weight ratio.

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"Forza Motorsport 3: game so good no sexy lady can divert."

GTDon2:

Ade182:

A RWD will get away quicker than a AWD generally but because in Forza 2 the opposite was the case many seem to take it as fact.

Correct.  People should stop to consider the fact that above the stock classes of drag racing there are very few AWD drag cars.  There are some, but there are even more FWD cars in the modifed tuner classes than AWD. 

You get into the higher end pro ranks and everything is RWD.  If AWD was as superior as some here think we'd have Top Fuel AWD cars.

Below is a pic of the last time AWD was attempted in one of the top ranked classes of the day (Gas Dragster).  It is Tommy Ivo's 4-engined AWD gas dragster. It ran 9.14 @ 171mph , a time that wouldn't be close to good enough for RWD Pro Stock today.

Real dragracing uses special cars with slicks and tarmac that's covered in hot rubber.

Forza dragracing will use regular cars on normal tires on normal tarmac.

 

Do you get it now?

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Don't compare real life to FM3.

Real life racing has tons of regulations and it's all about making the cars as good as possible within them.

In FM3 cars are regulated by the PI which is determined by a perfect lap around a test track (not ingame).

Jimmy Superfly2:

Ty4on:

Polish Person:

Don't flame me if I'm wrong, cause I might be.

After reading the IGN interview with Dan about drag racing, I was surprised by one of his responses. He said that in an 1/8th mile drag race, AWD cars would probably have an advantage over other drive types.

The reason this surprises me is because it would only be true if the track had absolutely no grip and other drive types just sat there spinning rubber. As we all know though, a drag strip should feel like it's covered in glue and just about anything should hook up instantly. In real life, AWD would bog down off the line with all of its components compared to RWD.

Someone can feel free to correct me, but I always thought this was common knowledge. Like on Top Gear where an R8 and a Carrera raced and the R8 was horribly bogged down off the line because of it's AWD.

Bugatti Veyron: 530PS per ton, 0 to 100kph in 2.5 seconds, AWD.

Mclaren F1: 550PS per ton, 0 to 100kph in 3.2 seconds, RWD.

 

'nuff said.

Nuff said?

Not really.

 

Bugatti doesn't care if they break their own car so they are free to run that car as hard as possible in order to get that super low number. I suggest you go watch the Top Gear clip where the Mac F1 races the Veyron in Dubai in order to see what happens in a real world situation (as crazy as that sounds).

Regardless... RWD technology has certainly improved in the 15+ years since the F1 was designed (diametrically opposed half-shafts, magnetic suspension that shifts to help the car launch...). Gordan Murray was once quoted as saying that the F1 wouldn't need more than 700hp to beat the bug in a straight line thanks to its power to weight ratio.

Hammond was not allowed to use launch control and he isn't a professional racing driver like "The Stig" (he ought to be ).

 

 There is no logic reason to why RWD should be better than AWD except weight.

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Don't compare real life to FM3.

Real life racing has tons of regulations and it's all about making the cars as good as possible within them.

In FM3 cars are regulated by the PI which is determined by a perfect lap around a test track (not ingame).

AWD is MUCH faster off the line than FWD or RWD.... if you have enough power to overcome the grip on the track. AWD cars actually launch faster with less sticky tires, just for the fact that they can bog off the line. The only AWD cars I see drag racing with slicks are at least 600-700hp. 

I work at DS1 Motorsports in Chicago, IL. We do all the trans work on subarus in the area... and I can tell you if you don't get the wheels spinning off the line in an AWD car - you're going to break something. All the torque has nowhere to go but the drivetrain. If your clutch is the weakest link, it is toast. If the clutch is strong enough to hold the power, you're going to be snapping an axle or having a diff puke its guts out.

My daily driver is a WRX with ~350 awhp.. if I don't launch hard enough on a track, it will bog terribly. If I launch it extremely hard, it pulls 1.6/1.7 60' times all day long on ALL SEASON TIRES.
 

Now if I put slicks on my car - I doubt it would leave the line.. I'd probably break an axle every time I launched.

I wonder if turn 10 has taken into account the need for a "lack" of traction from lower powered all wheel drive vehicles? It will be interesting to see.
 

 

To add to this - once you start running ridiculous tire sizes and power levels like an "open" class, or top fuel.. then yes, RWD is generally faster. 

 

Teeze 

GTDon2:

Correct.  People should stop to consider the fact that above the stock classes of drag racing there are very few AWD drag cars.  There are some, but there are even more FWD cars in the modifed tuner classes than AWD. 

You get into the higher end pro ranks and everything is RWD.  If AWD was as superior as some here think we'd have Top Fuel AWD cars.

Below is a pic of the last time AWD was attempted in one of the top ranked classes of the day (Gas Dragster).  It is Tommy Ivo's 4-engined AWD gas dragster. It ran 9.14 @ 171mph , a time that wouldn't be close to good enough for RWD Pro Stock today.

 "of the day". You prove your point by posting a photo of a AWD car that was built in 1961?

http://www.buicks.net/misc/tommy_ivo.html

if we are all jumping on the lets show random things to prove our point. John Shepard built a Talon to run a 7.70 @ 191 mph. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTJj-YaMdsk

 

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I'M KENNY POWERS, AND I'M VERY UPSET WITH THE WAY I'M ACTING RIGHT NOW!
I've got nothing inside me besides bad, horrible, sucky, baddiness. I even speak suckily - Christopher Titus

RWD cars are generally better on drag strips in the higher classes because with so much grip, they can shift nearly all of the weight to the rear wheels.  When this happens an AWD systems advantage is rendered moot. 

As someone said, the reason AWD car often bog down is because most AWD cars don't have a transmission strong enough to put all the power down, although they can be upgraded to prevent that.

The aditional moving parts in an AWD system just add to the amount of power loss.  A typical RWD system looses 15% power in the transmition, I am not sure what the normal % is for an AWD car, but it is higher.  This means that if a RWD car and an AWD car are drag prepared with the same bhp, they should both have similar launches, but the the aditional weight and hp loss of the AWD car will cause it to fall behind in the longer distances.

Just because there is a lot of grip on a drag strip doesn't mean there is infinite grip, you can break loose in a RWD car.

SO Teeze:

AWD is MUCH faster off the line than FWD or RWD.... if you have enough power to overcome the grip on the track. AWD cars actually launch faster with less sticky tires, just for the fact that they can bog off the line. The only AWD cars I see drag racing with slicks are at least 600-700hp. 

I work at DS1 Motorsports in Chicago, IL. We do all the trans work on subarus in the area... and I can tell you if you don't get the wheels spinning off the line in an AWD car - you're going to break something. All the torque has nowhere to go but the drivetrain. If your clutch is the weakest link, it is toast. If the clutch is strong enough to hold the power, you're going to be snapping an axle or having a diff puke its guts out.

My daily driver is a WRX with ~350 awhp.. if I don't launch hard enough on a track, it will bog terribly. If I launch it extremely hard, it pulls 1.6/1.7 60' times all day long on ALL SEASON TIRES.
 

Now if I put slicks on my car - I doubt it would leave the line.. I'd probably break an axle every time I launched.

I wonder if turn 10 has taken into account the need for a "lack" of traction from lower powered all wheel drive vehicles? It will be interesting to see.
 

 

To add to this - once you start running ridiculous tire sizes and power levels like an "open" class, or top fuel.. then yes, RWD is generally faster. 

 

Teeze 

 +1

basically, it comes down to having a car where the available power at the wheels is greater than the tractive capacity of the tires. in any racing situation, if given the choice between too much tire, or too much power, you'll take too much power 10 out of 10 times.

if you're applying full throttle, and not spinning the driven wheels, you're leaving potential accelerative power out there, unutilized, and there's nothing the driver can do about it.

but if you have more power at the wheels than the tires can handle, this can be managed by driving skill / throttle control. this allows the driver to accelerate at the absolute limit of tire adhesion, which is what we want.

 

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Free Tunes, Free Knowledge, Static-Free Dialogue. Learn To Tune....

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well just think of it like this .

 

RWD , add horsepower untill the car just spins uncontrollably.

make that car 4WD and it would probably spin less and get a better start.

 if you got enough horsepower , adding fwd isnt going to make the car any slower .

but sure , if you got a car with like 100 hp , the added fwd stuff would just be dead weight.

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Seanspeed:

cwwilson:

I'm expecting this to be like Forza 2. Where you'll need to feather the throttle in a RWD in order to keep from breaking traction while in AWD you'll just be able to mash the accelerator and get the full power right from the get-go.

Yup.  I think if they were going to include a special track surface for drag racing, they would have mentioned it. 

As it is, every track surface throughout Forza 2 had exactly the same amount of grip, and the same was true in Forza 1.  It will probably be the same in Forza 3, too. 

That's actually not completely true.  Silverstone is a slick track in FM2 and I seem to always have trouble getting traction with cars I normally dont.

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SteveMKrenz:

GTDon2:

Correct.  People should stop to consider the fact that above the stock classes of drag racing there are very few AWD drag cars.  There are some, but there are even more FWD cars in the modifed tuner classes than AWD. 

You get into the higher end pro ranks and everything is RWD.  If AWD was as superior as some here think we'd have Top Fuel AWD cars.

Below is a pic of the last time AWD was attempted in one of the top ranked classes of the day (Gas Dragster).  It is Tommy Ivo's 4-engined AWD gas dragster. It ran 9.14 @ 171mph , a time that wouldn't be close to good enough for RWD Pro Stock today.

 "of the day". You prove your point by posting a photo of a AWD car that was built in 1961?

http://www.buicks.net/misc/tommy_ivo.html

if we are all jumping on the lets show random things to prove our point. John Shepard built a Talon to run a 7.70 @ 191 mph. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTJj-YaMdsk

 

 lol, another point well missed.

The point is, if AWD was the way to go, and had proven itself to be superior, then today's Top Fuel class would be AWD and not RWD, as would all the pro classes in the NHRA.  But, taken to the extreme in drag racing, AWD is not the way to go even to this day, and in a sense Tommy Ivo helped demonstrate this back in his day.  But it sure was cool to watch his oddity smoke all 4 tires from start to finish...

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IFCA Endurance series 2, 6, and 8 Champion
IFCA Stock Car series 1 Champion
GamingExtreme Challenge 5th
IFCA World Ranking 102nd

Littleblueneon:

Seanspeed:

cwwilson:

I'm expecting this to be like Forza 2. Where you'll need to feather the throttle in a RWD in order to keep from breaking traction while in AWD you'll just be able to mash the accelerator and get the full power right from the get-go.

Yup.  I think if they were going to include a special track surface for drag racing, they would have mentioned it. 

As it is, every track surface throughout Forza 2 had exactly the same amount of grip, and the same was true in Forza 1.  It will probably be the same in Forza 3, too. 

That's actually not completely true.  Silverstone is a slick track in FM2 and I seem to always have trouble getting traction with cars I normally dont.

I think its in your head.  Silverstone has a lot of fast corners where the car is pushed to its edge of grip for long periods of time, which probably makes it 'seem' like there's less grip. 

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"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough"

-Mario Andretti