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The car classification system

Last post 10-14-2006, 8:02 AM by Blooze46. 25 replies.
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  •  10-12-2006, 8:45 PM 24334

    The car classification system

    I was just looking in the scca regulations book, at the car classes, and I noticed that it seems like in FM1 Turn 10 used the scca classification system. I didn't look too deeply, but I noticed several cars in forza fit right in to the classes. I also didn't notice any differences. I guess this is a question aimed more at someone from Turn 10....

    How much did you base the classification of fm1 on the scca guidelines?

    I know in scca there are many sub-classes like street, street prepared, modified, etc. that were not in fm1, and I know people complained about some cars seemed out of place, but if that is how the scca categorizes cars, I think it is the way it should stay.


    I'M KENNY POWERS, AND I'M VERY UPSET WITH THE WAY I'M ACTING RIGHT NOW!
    I've got nothing inside me besides bad, horrible, sucky, baddiness. I even speak suckily - Christopher Titus
  •  10-12-2006, 11:24 PM 24347 in reply to 24334

    Re: The car classification system

    Well, since you mentioned street, street prepared etc, it sounds like you were reading the SOLO car classifications, which is autocross, which is not only boring but not very representative of a cars performance on a race track.

    Either way, Forza shouldn't classify cars like the SCCA because Forza doesn't use the cars the SCCA uses, it uses approximate computer models of them. It wouldn't make much sense to have a class system that is based on real life, when some of the cars in the game perform better/worse than their real life counter parts. As well, if the SCCA classifications are anything like the classifications in Canada, they aren't based on the potential of the car, but rather how well the car does now, which is highly driver dependent. If you have a shitty driver in a car with great potential in Canada, the car will be classified as a shitty car. Then a good driver will jump in it, and you'll have a leaderboard filled with CRX's, Tommy's, F355's etc.

  •  10-13-2006, 8:06 AM 24377 in reply to 24347

    Re: The car classification system

    I am glad they are changing the classification for Forza 2, it is a little messed up in the first game. I have been in D1 cars that are just nowhere near as good as other D1 cars, it can be really frustrating sometimes. Not sure what they based the class system on but it does need fixed.


    McLaren | Ayrton Senna | Lewis Hamilton
  •  10-13-2006, 8:16 AM 24380 in reply to 24377

    Re: The car classification system

    F1Senna:
    I am glad they are changing the classification for Forza 2, it is a little messed up in the first game. I have been in D1 cars that are just nowhere near as good as other D1 cars, it can be really frustrating sometimes. Not sure what they based the class system on but it does need fixed.


    They dont need to change it to fix it...
    Drows24: Come on, you read ''Forza hidden secret''. You where waiting for what ? Subliminal message in the paint shop ?
  •  10-13-2006, 8:43 AM 24383 in reply to 24380

    Re: The car classification system

    Drows:
    F1Senna:
    I am glad they are changing the classification for Forza 2, it is a little messed up in the first game. I have been in D1 cars that are just nowhere near as good as other D1 cars, it can be really frustrating sometimes. Not sure what they based the class system on but it does need fixed.


    They dont need to change it to fix it...

    What do they need to do then?




    McLaren | Ayrton Senna | Lewis Hamilton
  •  10-13-2006, 8:52 AM 24385 in reply to 24383

    Re: The car classification system

    They just need to balance every car... They dont need to change the class system to do so.... or maybe they do...
    Drows24: Come on, you read ''Forza hidden secret''. You where waiting for what ? Subliminal message in the paint shop ?
  •  10-13-2006, 10:50 AM 24409 in reply to 24385

    Re: The car classification system

    Drows:
    They just need to balance every car... They dont need to change the class system to do so.... or maybe they do...

    What do you mean by balance every car Drows? Are you saying make em all the same? Make em artificially identical or what?


    A small but vocal customer...
  •  10-13-2006, 10:55 AM 24410 in reply to 24409

    Re: The car classification system

    lol, that every car in the same class run about the same time.

    Well its nearly impossible...with the balance they have right now... Just take exemple of a civic vs a enzo (or a saleen) a fully upgraded Civic, climb up to S, but doesnt run S time.

    Sure some car will be better on some track because of the way they're running,  but there is not supposed to have a 4 seconde difference in car of the same class.


    Drows24: Come on, you read ''Forza hidden secret''. You where waiting for what ? Subliminal message in the paint shop ?
  •  10-13-2006, 11:08 AM 24418 in reply to 24410

    Re: The car classification system

    I have to honestly say that the car classification system in Forza is pretty much ignored by everyone. Whenever a racing event comes up in singleplayer career or multiplayer and the car class is restricted, I think we all know which car to beeline for in each class. I don't pay much attention.
  •  10-13-2006, 11:10 AM 24421 in reply to 24410

    Re: The car classification system

    Ahhh...OK. I'm with you 100%. If there was a way to rank em by actual performance (track times) that would be great. It'd be nice to see a better mix of cars online.
    A small but vocal customer...
  •  10-13-2006, 11:25 AM 24427 in reply to 24410

    Re: The car classification system

    They could sort it out by not making the entery requrements so strict, but that could effect the game, something needs to be done though, so far it is the only real gripe i have had with Forza.


    McLaren | Ayrton Senna | Lewis Hamilton
  •  10-13-2006, 1:26 PM 24467 in reply to 24427

    Re: The car classification system

     I thought I remember reading something about every car getting a score given to them that takes into account upgrades and such in FM2. If that's right, maybe there will be a way for you to create races where you limit the overall car score within some range.  Of course, there is a big question on how accurate that would be but it would definitely be different. Might work out great, might be a disaster.


  •  10-13-2006, 1:39 PM 24472 in reply to 24467

    Re: The car classification system

    "We've also improved the car classification system. In the first version, the math model we used to classify the cars was linear and only cued off 5 variables. For Forza Motorsport 2, we threw out the linear math model and switched to a neural network that searches simulated results. This search results in a non-linear model based on far more variables. At the end of the day, our goal is to have improved balance in the car classification system as well as more interim steps between classes."

    That's what Dan Greenawalt had to say previously about it. The idea of  "a neural network that searches simulated results" makes me very hopeful.


    A small but vocal customer...
  •  10-13-2006, 1:43 PM 24475 in reply to 24472

    Re: The car classification system

    Same here...
    Drows24: Come on, you read ''Forza hidden secret''. You where waiting for what ? Subliminal message in the paint shop ?
  •  10-13-2006, 2:12 PM 24479 in reply to 24475

    Re: The car classification system


    What do you suppose the A690 means?  I'm sure the A is for the class, but 690?  Do you think higher is better or lower?  Hmm... 


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  •  10-13-2006, 2:15 PM 24480 in reply to 24479

    Re: The car classification system

    Having another pic to compare would help :p
    Drows24: Come on, you read ''Forza hidden secret''. You where waiting for what ? Subliminal message in the paint shop ?
  •  10-13-2006, 2:48 PM 24484 in reply to 24480

    Re: The car classification system

    Drows:
    Having another pic to compare would help :p


    Probably, but it's the only one I can find with some kind of hint as to the classing system. Sad [:(]



    My Gallery|My Storefront
  •  10-13-2006, 3:10 PM 24489 in reply to 24484

    Re: The car classification system

    Judging from those pics here, it definitely looks like higher is better. Now I wonder if we'll be able to limit cars to a certain range in numbers instead of just classes? Like all could would need to be between 750 and 800 or something like that. It could be nice. If they let us fine-tune the turbos boost pressure, we could reduce the boost pressure to remove a couple of HP so a car would fit inside a given range, instead of having to install a smaller turbo and loosing a whole lot of power, then trying to compensate by installing other stuff or removing more weight etc...

    _______
    NastyJay.
  •  10-13-2006, 3:38 PM 24493 in reply to 24489

    Re: The car classification system

    Several of these pics have that class number I think. Interesting. http://www.xboxfront.de/screenshots-945-2740-Forza_Motorsport_2.html

    I would like to know the criteria or method for arriving at that number.


    A small but vocal customer...
  •  10-13-2006, 3:51 PM 24495 in reply to 24493

    Cool [H] Re: The car classification system

    cabbghd2:

    Several of these pics have that class number I think. Interesting. http://www.xboxfront.de/screenshots-945-2740-Forza_Motorsport_2.html

    I would like to know the criteria or method for arriving at that number.



    OK. FINE.

    The link at the bottom also has:

    Obtaining alternative solutions the hard way


    Ferrari's solution

    Otherwise, the depressed quartic can be solved by means of a method discovered by Ferrari. Once the depressed quartic has been obtained, the next step is to add the valid identity

    (u2 + α)2u4 − 2αu2 = α2

    to equation (1), yielding

    (u^2 + \alpha)^2 + \beta u + \gamma = \alpha u^2 + \alpha^2. \qquad \qquad (2)

    The effect has been to fold up the u4 term into a perfect square: (u2 + α)2. The second term, α u2 did not disappear, but its sign has changed and it has been moved to the right side.

    The next step is to insert a variable y into the perfect square on the left side of equation (2), and a corresponding 2y into the coefficient of u2 in the right side. To accomplish these insertions, the following valid formulas will be added to equation (2),

    \begin{matrix}    (u^2+\alpha+y)^2-(u^2+\alpha)^2 & = & 2y(u^2+\alpha)+ y^2\ \    \\    & = & 2yu^2+2y\alpha+y^2,   \end{matrix}

    and

    0 = (α + 2y)u2 − 2yu2 − αu2

    These two formulas, added together, produce

    (u^2 + \alpha + y)^2 - (u^2 + \alpha)^2 = (\alpha + 2 y) u^2 - \alpha u^2 + 2 y \alpha + y^2 \qquad \qquad (y-\hbox{insertion})

    which added to equation (2) produces

    (u2 + α + y)2 + βu + γ = (α + 2y)u2 + (2yα + y2 + α2).

    This is equivalent to

    (u^2 + \alpha + y)^2 = (\alpha + 2 y) u^2 - \beta u + (y^2 + 2 y \alpha + \alpha^2 - \gamma). \qquad \qquad (3)

    The objective now is to choose a value for y such that the right side of equation (3) becomes a perfect square. This can be done by letting the discriminant of the quadratic function become zero. To explain this, first expand a perfect square so that it equals a quadratic function:

    (su + t)2 = (s2)u2 + (2st)u + (t2).

    The quadratic function on the right side has three coefficients. It can be verified that squaring the second coefficient and then subtracting four times the product of the first and third coefficients yields zero:

    (2st)2 − 4(s2)(t2) = 0.

    Therefore to make the right side of equation (3) into a perfect square, the following equation must be solved:

    ( − β)2 − 4(2y + α)(y2 + 2yα + α2 − γ) = 0.

    Multiply the binomial with the polynomial,

    β2 − 4(2y3 + 5αy2 + (4α2 − 2γ)y + (α3 − αγ)) = 0

    Divide both sides by −4, and move the −β2/4 to the right,

    2 y^3  + 5 \alpha y^2  + ( 4 \alpha^2 - 2 \gamma ) y  + \left( \alpha^3 - \alpha \gamma - {\beta^2 \over 4} \right)  = 0 \qquad \qquad

    This is a cubic equation for y. Divide both sides by 2,

    y^3 + {5 \over 2} \alpha y^2 + (2 \alpha^2 - \gamma) y + \left( {\alpha^3 \over 2} - {\alpha \gamma \over 2} - {\beta^2 \over 8} \right) = 0. \qquad \qquad (4)

    Conversion of the nested cubic into a depressed cubic

    Equation (4) is a cubic equation nested within the quartic equation. It must be solved in order to solve the quartic. To solve the cubic, first transform it into a depressed cubic by means of the substitution

    y = v - {5 \over 6} \alpha.

    Equation (4) becomes

    \left( v - {5 \over 6} \alpha \right)^3 + {5 \over 2} \alpha \left( v - {5 \over 6} \alpha \right)^2 + (2 \alpha^2 - \gamma) \left( v - {5 \over 6} \alpha \right) + \left( {\alpha^3 \over 2} - {\alpha \gamma \over 2} - {\beta^2 \over 8} \right) = 0.

    Expand the powers of the binomials,

    \left( v^3 - {5 \over 2} \alpha v^2 + {25 \over 12} \alpha^2 v - {125 \over 216} \alpha^3 \right) + {5 \over 2} \alpha \left( v^2 - {5 \over 3} \alpha v + {25 \over 36} \alpha^2 \right) + (2 \alpha^2 - \gamma) v - {5 \over 6} \alpha (2 \alpha^2 - \gamma ) + \left( {\alpha^3 \over 2} - {\alpha \gamma \over 2} - {\beta^2 \over 8} \right) = 0.

    Distribute, collect like powers of v, and cancel out the pair of v2 terms,

    v^3 + \left( - {\alpha^2 \over 12} - \gamma \right) v + \left( - {\alpha^3 \over 108} + {\alpha \gamma \over 3} - {\beta^2 \over 8} \right) = 0.

    This is a depressed cubic equation.

    Relabel its coefficients,

    P = - {\alpha^2 \over 12} - \gamma,Q = - {\alpha^3 \over 108} + {\alpha \gamma \over 3} - {\beta^2 \over 8}.

    The depressed cubic now is

    v^3 + P v + Q = 0. \qquad \qquad (5)

    Solving the nested depressed cubic

    The solutions (any solution will do, so pick any of the three complex roots) of equation (5) are

    let U=\sqrt[3]{{Q\over 2}\pm \sqrt{{Q^{2}\over 4}+{P^{3}\over 27}}} (taken from Cubic equation) v = {P\over 3U} - U

    therefore the solution of the original nested cubic is

    y = - {5 \over 6} \alpha + {P\over 3U} - U \qquad \qquad (6) Remember 1: P=0 \Longleftarrow {Q\over 2} + \sqrt{{Q^{2}\over 4}+{P^{3}\over 27}}=0Remember 2: \lim_{P\to 0}{P \over \sqrt[3]{{Q\over 2} + \sqrt{{Q^{2}\over 4}+{P^{3}\over 27}}}}=0

    Folding the second perfect square

    With the value for y given by equation (6), it is now known that the right side of equation (3) is a perfect square of the form

    (s^2)u^2+(2st)u+(t^2) = \left(\left(\sqrt{(s^2)}\right)u + {(2st) \over 2\sqrt{(s^2)}}\right)^2 This is correct for both signs of square root, as long as the same sign is taken for both square roots. A ± is redundant, as it would be absorbed by another ± a few equations further down this page.

    so that it can be folded:

    (\alpha + 2 y) u^2 + (- \beta) u + (y^2 + 2 y \alpha + \alpha^2 - \gamma ) = \left( \left(\sqrt{(\alpha + 2y)}\right)u + {(-\beta) \over 2\sqrt{(\alpha + 2 y)}} \right)^2. Note: If β ≠ 0 then α + 2y ≠ 0. If β = 0 then this would be a biquadratic equation, which we solved earlier.

    Therefore equation (3) becomes

    (u^2 + \alpha + y)^2 = \left( \left(\sqrt{\alpha + 2 y}\right)u - {\beta \over 2\sqrt{\alpha + 2 y}} \right)^2 \qquad\qquad (7).

    Equation (7) has a pair of folded perfect squares, one on each side of the equation. The two perfect squares balance each other.

    If two squares are equal, then the sides of the two squares are also equal, as shown by:

    (u^2 + \alpha + y) = \pm\left( \left(\sqrt{\alpha + 2 y}\right)u - {\beta \over 2\sqrt{\alpha + 2 y}} \right) \qquad\qquad (7').

    Collecting like powers of u produces

    u^2 + \left(\mp_s \sqrt{\alpha + 2 y}\right)u + \left( \alpha + y \pm_s {\beta \over 2\sqrt{\alpha + 2 y}} \right) = 0 \qquad\qquad (8). Note: The subscript s of \pm_s and \mp_s is to note that they are dependent.

    Equation (8) is a quadratic equation for u. Its solution is

    u={\pm_s\sqrt{\alpha + 2 y} \pm_t \sqrt{(\alpha + 2y) - 4(\alpha + y \pm_s {\beta \over 2\sqrt{\alpha + 2 y}})} \over 2}.

    Simplifying, one gets

    u={\pm_s\sqrt{\alpha + 2 y} \pm_t \sqrt{-\left(3\alpha + 2y \pm_s {2\beta \over \sqrt{\alpha + 2 y}} \right)} \over 2}.

    This is the solution of the depressed quartic, therefore the solutions of the original quartic equation are

    x=-{B \over 4A} + {\pm_s\sqrt{\alpha + 2 y} \pm_t \sqrt{-\left(3\alpha + 2y \pm_s {2\beta \over \sqrt{\alpha + 2 y}} \right)} \over 2}. \qquad\qquad (8') Remember: The two \pm_s come from the same place in equation (7'), and should both have the same sign, while the sign of \pm_t is independent.

    Summary of Ferrari's method

    Given the quartic equation

    Ax4 + Bx3 + Cx2 + Dx + E = 0,

    its solution can be found by means of the following calculations:

    \alpha = - {3 B^2 \over 8 A^2} + {C \over A},\beta = {B^3 \over 8 A^3} - {B C \over 2 A^2} + {D \over A},\gamma = {-3 B^4 \over 256 A^4} + {C B^2 \over 16 A^3} - {B D \over 4 A^2} + {E \over A}, if β = 0 solve u4 + αu2 + γ = 0 and substitute x=u-{B\over 4A} finding the roots x=-{B\over 4A}\pm_s\sqrt{-\alpha\pm_t\sqrt{\alpha^2-4\gamma}\over 2},\qquad\beta=0. P = - {\alpha^2 \over 12} - \gamma,Q = - {\alpha^3 \over 108} + {\alpha \gamma \over 3} - {\beta^2 \over 8},R = {Q\over 2} \pm \sqrt{{Q^{2}\over 4}+{P^{3}\over 27}}, (either sign of the square root will do)U = \sqrt[3]{R}, (there are 3 complex roots, any one of them will do)y = - {5 \over 6} \alpha -U + \begin{cases}U=0 &\to 0\\U\ne 0 &\to {P\over 3U}\end{cases},W=\sqrt{ \alpha + 2 y}x = - {B \over 4 A} + { \pm_s  W \pm_t \sqrt{-\left(3\alpha + 2 y \pm_s {2\beta\over W} \right) }\over 2 }. The two ±s must have the same sign, the ±t is independent. To get all roots, find x for ±st = +,+ and for +,− and for −,+ and for −,−. Double roots will be given twice, triple roots 3 times and quadruple roots would be given 4 times (although then β = 0, which is a special case). The order of the roots depends on which cubic root U one chose. (see note for (8) vis-à-vis (8'))

    Quod Erat Faciendum. There are other methods of solving the quartic equations, perhaps more optimal. Ferrari was the first to discover one of these labyrinthine solutions. The equation which he solved was

    x4 + 6x2 − 60x + 36 = 0

    which was already in depressed form. It has a pair of solutions which can be found with the set of formulas shown above.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartic_equation

    Obtaining alternative solutions the hard way



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