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I've been wondering for a while now... is it pure skill or good tuning to be able to drive a RWD car without TCS, and if its tuning, hw is it done...

Thanks- QB Eater47

I believe its in putting understeer, but it can be done with skill :P Just dont put the throttle all the way down at the beginning. Put it a bit and increase how much you put until you get into second, then push it down harder, and once your in third, put it to the max.

I dunno if its just me but i can drive rwd without tcs and don't need any tuning as long as its not in U class

Both, but I'd say it takes some skill - not pure skill. That's overexaggerating
things a little..

Actually, it can be solved both ways (tuning and technique/ skill). But throttle
control is key, period.

I drive/ race without any assists, and try to avoid ultra-high HP/TQ cars.

...And, I personally want as little complications as possible. I tune my cars with
no downforce kits (Forza body kits). ...So it tends to take a long time to finely tune
a car for me.

So for me, it's tuning, because I'm a good tuner/ racer, but not a top racer/ tuner.

Hopefully someone with a lot more knowledge can assist you further. I'm not
that great at explaining things.

Best.

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Death Blooms 8

My Forza Photos
My Midnight Club: LA Photos

If you are using high power RWD cars without TCS, just use wider gears then it's just as easy as driving any other car

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GT- oo F4T4L1TY oo

Manual gears
All assists off
Stock tyres full power no wings

Here are three things i've learned to do with corner exit oversteer in RWD cars:

1. Soften the rear springs, get the weight transferred to the rear for traction and then use other settings to help with understeer if it's there (sometimes there is corner entry understeer)

2. Work with your rear diff settings, I start with a pretty low setting 10-20% and work my way up to get power to both wheels on corner exit but not get inside wheel spin (check the friction telemetry)

3. Adjust gearing - you can use lower gears, but it may take you out of your powerband and cost valuable HP for corner exit which is very important. I would do this within reason.

And like others have said, practicing with throttle control will help a lot.

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GT: Major Pile
Virtual Motorsports Racing League - www.vmracingleague.com.

Major Pile:

Here are three things i've learned to do with corner exit oversteer in RWD cars: 1. Soften the rear springs, get the weight transferred to the rear for traction and then use other settings to help with understeer if it's there (sometimes there is corner entry understeer) 2. Work with your rear diff settings, I start with a pretty low setting 10-20% and work my way up to get power to both wheels on corner exit but not get inside wheel spin (check the friction telemetry) 3. Adjust gearing - you can use lower gears, but it may take you out of your powerband and cost valuable HP for corner exit which is very important. I would do this within reason. And like others have said, practicing with throttle control will help a lot.

+1 to that. He's right, those are all steps that can help reduce throttle oversteer in RWD cars.

I would recomend taking a U Class muscle car (Charger, Challenger, 'Vette, etc) and getting used to the throttle control on that. If you can run clean laps with that much horsepower/tourque, than you can handle anything in this game.

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FrEaKyxXxStYLey
Absinthe Minded Auto Haus-Tuner/Tester
Free Tune/Test Drive Request Thread

just go easy on the accelerator in lower gears and coming out of turns

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Gamertag - oOi SkaTerS iOo

The big mistake that people make when tuning RWD cars for no TCS is they make them understeer, this isn't the cure. Pretty much it is just down to throttle control at the end of the day.

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Gamertag - R2P ChemicaL

In most cases, it's about transferring enough weight rearward so that the force (horsepower), can't overcome the traction (tires).  Lowering your accel settings on the diff will only mask the real problem.  Do it too fast, and you risk plowing off the track, as you take weight off the front wheels.  Control the weight transfer!

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SCCA Spec Miata
Spurs Astros Cowboys Aggies
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar
Assist free sim racer

That's funny, I thought FM2 was about the racing...

I have been trying to figure out how to make RWD cars drive as grippy as possible without TCS since day 1, the main things I do that definately work are:
Wide gears on high powered cars like Charger, GT40 etc
very soft springs
soft anti roll bars (very important)- I used to have mine set stiff until recently, and the cars are so much quicker on corner exit and sweeping bends now because the suspension takes a big chunk of the car's power, rather than the tyres, and my lap times have gone down by a lot since

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GT- oo F4T4L1TY oo

Manual gears
All assists off
Stock tyres full power no wings

With wide gears, only make them super wide if the car has enough power (obviously) like with the GT40, I use mainly 3rd gear and 4th on straights, 3rd gear for all corners even hairpins, it seems like you are going very slow in low revs but if you look at the speed it is shooting up, if you were to use short gears with the GT40 you would be constantly throttle controlling, and getting no speed, but lots and lots of wheelspin.
If you have stiff anti roll bars, when you exit a corner and come on the throttle, you need more throttle control to keep the tyres in grip
soft springs and high ride height are good for grip as well because you get more weight transfer effect, and smoother going in and out of corners, plus it makes the car more predictable with soft springs
If all else fails you could try a bit of negative toe on the rear wheels but just be careful on how much you do it because on some cars, it doesn't help at all and on all cars, if you put too much toe (positive or neg) it makes them handle terrible, differential doesn't seem to make much difference in grip unless you are accelerating on a sweeping bend and the car's going into the apex too early, then just lower the setting (depending on if you are oversteering when acceling or releasing throttle) until you get the perfect amount of over/underesteer you want for the track

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GT- oo F4T4L1TY oo

Manual gears
All assists off
Stock tyres full power no wings

I found that setting up suspension (in this order) helps me a lot. I primarily drive RWD cars in the A, S and U classes.

Set up the front suspension first. Then go to the rear.

Diff Accel: do this by feel. Start broad and narrow it down. Reduce the diff accel to get the best possible traction. (Note: I've learned the hard way that corner exit depends tremendously on corner entry - if the car isn't turning in and tracking properly on the way in I tend to compensate by over accelerating and trying to "steer" the rear wheels with the power - bad idea, always!)

Rear springs: don't just make them soft - make them as soft as possible while ensuring they don't flash red as you squeeze the accelerator.

Set the tire temps: try to get your tire temps at about 32psi after two or three laps )generally start at around 29psi and drop or raise a psi after viewing the telemtry. Seldom do I have to go more than one psi in either direction.

Set the camber and castor: try to get even temps. It's impossible, but get it to within 4 degrees across outside, middle and inside. If one (inside or outside) is higher then make sure it's the inside of the tire.

Set the bump. If the car suddenly breaks loose at the rear when you squeeze the throttle (squeeze not snap - think squeezing a gun trigger so as not to disturb the aim - or just: be gentle dude) then drop the bump. I usually work in 0.5 increments until I get it close and then narrow it to 0.2 or 0.1 increments. It typically ends up pretty darned soft. My Nissan R390 is set to around 2.5 at the moment.

Set the rebound: rebound is very NB. Watch the friction telemetry. If the tire loses grip as it rises over a bump (while accelerating or decelerating) reduce the rebound - again, I work in 0.5 increments until I get it close then slow it down to 0.2 or 0.1 increments.

Set the sway (roll) bar: rule of thumb - set the front higher than the rear. Use the friction telemetry window again. Reduce the rear sway to ensure that as you feed in the power the inside tire doesn't lose grip. Try and get the inside tire to maintain grip all the way out the corner.  The sway bar is usually set low down on the scale (far left).

Go back and reset the front suspension. You'll need to make minor adjustments after you get the rear working. After that, revisit the rear and ensure that everything is still working and make any minor adjustments.

General: be a smooth driver. Inconsistent driving will always destroy any suspension tuning benefits. Try to get your lap times consistently within a couple tenths of a second of each other.

Using telemetry: I can't watch the telemetry while driving so always tune the car in races. I race - min 5 laps - and then watch the replay with telemetry visible and using the slow motion option.

I started doing this and sucked in the beginning because I didn't see what the car was doing. Watching a replay in slow motion, from behind and above the car (to ensure you're on the right line and to see the car's attitude), with the telemtry displayed divulges a lot of information. I watched a lot of corners in slow motion to begin to understand this.

NB: make only one change at a time. Don't change the bump, rebound and sway bar then test the car again. You won't have any idea what changes made the differences in the handling.

With  a decent setup and smooth driving I can get most cars to full throttle at corner exit without any assists (I hate assists and never drive with any - for no reason) and also change gears myself. Changing gears myself gives me absolute control over when the car will shift and experience a change in horsepower and torque applied to the road and thereby upsetting the handling. (As the car shifts it goes off the accelerator and transfers weight to the front suspension then snaps it back on to the rear but at different horsepower and torque values).

Hope that helps. If anyone's got any other suggestions or if I've messed something up - holler!

The greatest change for me is alteration of my controller setup. I do not use the triggers for throttle and braking for I find it crippling when compared to the use of the right analogue stick for accel/brake (forward/backward obviously).

Used this since F1 on the PS2, all of the GT games since and now on the delightful Forza! Give it a try.

i've found that in cornering i short shift so i don't spin out of control. as for the starting grid i still have problems but i give the throttle a quick spurt then let it catch it's grip then hammer it

practice, practice, practice.... within a week you should be able to drive most cars with no assists.  You can only set up a car to a point....and not every tune works for every driver...after that it's throttle control, and not upsetting the suspension while accelerating (don't make sudden steering movements)

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Cold Al:

The big mistake that people make when tuning RWD cars for no TCS is they make them understeer, this isn't the cure. Pretty much it is just down to throttle control at the end of the day.

completely agreed. what you going to do when your in a lobby and stock tunes and upgrades is turned on and the car to drive is a 67 shelby cobra 427 no tcs. on boomslang. leave the lobby??

it just takes practice and calmnes...it comes down to skill meaning throttle control and knowing were the bumps on a track are this is something that goes unnoticed most of the times and people think that its their throttle control when in reality i might just be a lil bump on the track that throws the car into wheelspin.

ones you can controll a power car with no tcs. its very satisfying.

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ISRC RACER09

racerfink:

In most cases, it's about transferring enough weight rearward so that the force (horsepower), can't overcome the traction (tires).  Lowering your accel settings on the diff will only mask the real problem.  Do it too fast, and you risk plowing off the track, as you take weight off the front wheels.  Control the weight transfer!

Excellent advice.

 All too often I read, "Soften Rear Springs..or..Reduce Rear anti-Roll bar." Reducing too much of either will only aggrevate the problem.  Stiffening Springs allows less compression and adds grip to the inside tyres on banked cornors. Softening Rear Springs too much and you remove Front end traction. A must for any RWD car.

Increasing your Differential settings will actualy tighten your car up. Decrease your Decell. if when you lift off the Throttle and your car oversteers and increase your Decell. if your car does not power down enough.  Your Accell. should be no more than 5% off of your Decell. either way.  My Diff settings are within 1 or 2% of each other and are between 70 and 75% overall.

Throttle control is necessary for any vehical regardless of Drivetrain, but RWD requires a little more care. Begin squeezing the throttle, literaly, at the apex and you should be wide open upon exit.

If you use Downforce, apply more aeroload to your Front than Rear. If you find that this causes some Oversteer then reduce/increase Rear aeroload until you find a balance. You should not feel any adverse effects of Downforce, rather it should increase grip overall.

There is also a fine line between Oversteer and Overdriving.

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" 2nd. means you're 1st. to lose".

No Assists.
Wheel User.

"Live-Space": www.dtaiw.spaces.live.com

You mean to tell me there is TCS in this game?  Just kidding I've never used TCS and honestly that is the only way to get better. Once you drive without it for a week or two you will never want TCS on again. Just like in real life. My car with TCS on is horrible. I can't control the back end of it as well and the TCS almost got me into trouble when I first had it. (Damn TCS) But seriously just turn it off and don't be scared. Have fun powersliding though!

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Interesting discussion... last night I got into a room on the ring and grabbed my XJ220 that I'd been tuning. I'm a casual driver so I've been using assists. Well there were no assists on. They were locked out. Ouch. Two laps around the ring. After fishtailing through the first turn, going off the road, and screwing up my time, being in dead last, I figured head back to the lobby. But I decided to see if i could get used to it.

Ease on the brake, ease on the gas. Downshift but only when necessary, upshift but not necessarily everytime you think you should. My car was tuned with heavy decelleration (80%) and accelleration at 50%. It's "wheel tuned". Suspension tuned so it's as low as it can be with the suspension at that sweet spot where it's stiff but not overly stiff. Car never bottoms out even on the fastest turns, but almost does.

I did some fine adjustments on the wheel controls to give some play in the pedals. I noticed I started "feather braking" and "feathering" the accellerator in spots. If I hadn't screwed up on one turn and got a 3 second penalty + whatever time I lost I would have had my personal best on the track. As it was I missed it by less than a second on lap 2. I didn't finish last either.

I went back later in arcade to try it with that same car and did my personal best on the ring in S class: 7:26 and a clean lap -- I almost bricked a couple of turns, but managed to stay on the pavement. I'm sure that cost a number of seconds. I know it's not great but it is respectable. The XJ220 is far from a leaderboard car and can be a brick going into a turn. Some of you guys get 7:00 in this class. I don't know how you do it.

So I'll wrap up. I find that the assists, other than ABS which I really don't mind at all being on (look I can adjust the pedal play to compensate anyway so why bother turning it off)., lead to over braking and over accellerating because they give a false sense of security going into a turn. Why would I turn in a better time without the assists on just a couple laps of readjusting techniques?